General question about heads:  

English support for Panogear kit
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General question about heads:

by klausesser » Sat May 21, 2011 4:42 pm

Josef and i would like to ask about quick-release plates.

1) would you prefer to have a QRP-hold fixed on the arm?
2) would you prefer to attach the camera just with the camera-screw?

1a) which kind of holder/plate would you prefer as default mount on the arm?
1b) would you prefer to fix the QRP-holder on he arm yourself to use your own plate?

2a) attaching the camera with just a screw means more flexibility of course - but needs to be aligned each time.

There aren´t very much QRPs on the market. Of course there will be both kinds of rails - but i guess some people would like the kind of QRP they already have in use anyway.

best, Klaus

here´s a view of the rail in the actual state: (sorry for the size - it´s an iPhone shot and i´ll resize it)


Last edited by klausesser on Sat May 21, 2011 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by gkaefer » Sat May 21, 2011 5:28 pm

what is a "QRP-holder"?
does your image show an example for 1 or 2?

Georg


EDIT: ok quick release plate - holder...

EDIT2: I've this ballhead in use (since few days only..) and I use it to fix my merlin on the ballhead... the B-3 plate is compatible with the B-4 head...
http://www.foto-tip.pl/sklep/triopo_b_4_tripod_ball_head-p-2117.html

on my merlin itself I mount my Canon as shown in your image directly to the rail...
Last edited by gkaefer on Sat May 21, 2011 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by irpano » Sun May 22, 2011 2:07 am

FWIW - I have 2 Canon 30D (1 for IR work) that I use and a QRP would be very good for my situation. It means that I can change cameras with a minimum of fuss and the setiings are almost identical (Lense requirements). If the rail with the QRP could be removed and attached to the horozontal arm as well the if I wanted to shoot in horoxontal mode it would be a quick conversion. Hope this helps.

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by tived » Sun May 22, 2011 5:14 am

Arca swiss

would be great

Henrik

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by klausesser » Sun May 22, 2011 12:53 pm

tived wrote:Arca swiss

would be great

Henrik

well - but i could just find the camera-plates . . not any fixture to take the plates!?

What makes the Arca plates special?

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Sun May 22, 2011 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by tived » Sun May 22, 2011 2:47 pm

Maybe I misunderstood the question.

The dove-trail system initially designed by Arca Swiss, and later replicated by others, such as ReallyRightStuff, Kirk and many others.

I think between Manfrotto and the arca swiss style, they cover the majority of the market. Manfrotto more so the mainstream and Arca the higher-end, to me coming from Manfrotto to AS system via ReallyRightStuff, it offered me a better stability and I think the plates cand clamps are better and easier to work with. I am not so much a fan for the quick release, but prefer the screw in, because if you have people with slightly different plates you can still make it work.

I suppose from a manufacturing point of you, you and josef would be better off, just offering the straight screw, but it would be nice if there was the option to either add your own choice of clamp.

What Makes the Arca plates special? Its that same special feel you get when you drive in your BMW or Merc ;-) knowing that it all just works really well.

Henrik

PS: there also seem to be some imitation of the arca swiss system from china floating around on ebay atm.

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by tived » Sun May 22, 2011 2:58 pm

http://www.tripodhead.com/products/product-details2.cfm?product=arca-swiss-geometry

Manufacturers that use the Arca-Swiss Style Quick-Release Geometry include:

Acratech http://acratech.net/
Arca-Swiss - no web site
Foba http://www.foba.ch/index.htm
Giottos (only on their most recent line of ball heads & plates) http://www.giottos.com/
INDURO http://www.indurogear.com/products_details_PHQ3.html
Kirk http://www.kirkphoto.com/
Markins http://www.markinseurope.com/en/product.php?page=4
Novoflex (only on some of their products) http://www.novoflex.com/en/home/
Really Right Stuff www.reallyrightstuff.com
Studioball by GRAF - can't find a website
Wimberley http://www.tripodhead.com/index.cfm

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=arca swiss dove tail system&N=0

just some links

Henrik

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by tived » Sun May 22, 2011 3:06 pm


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by mediavets » Sun May 22, 2011 3:36 pm

klausesser wrote:Josef and i would like to ask about quick-release plates.

1) would you prefer to have a QRP-hold fixed on the arm?
2) would you prefer to attach the camera just with the camera-screw?

I reckon you risk getting as many answers as there are potential customers.

Nodal Ninja faced the same varied demands and has developed an array of alternative devices for attaching the camera to the upper arm of their manual pano heads.

Perhaps there's some way the upper arm of Josef's motorised head could be designed so as to allow the use of Nodal Ninja camera attachment devices to save him having to 're-invent the wheel'?
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by klausesser » Sun May 22, 2011 3:49 pm

Thanks, men! Never dealt with that . . I never used CRPs on any of my cameras. One reason i was asking is: there´re some plates providing a "lip" for exactly aligning the body. That´s fine of course.

best to you, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Sun May 22, 2011 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by geko5766 » Sun May 22, 2011 4:19 pm

Hello Klaus,

I would prefer the smaller Manfrotto 200pl14.
It is small and affordable and there is for example the roundabout NP which uses this system screwed on a slide.
Works well.

Best from Trier
Georg
The picture is made behind the camera.......

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by mediavets » Sun May 22, 2011 4:23 pm

klausesser wrote:Thanks, men! Never dealt with that . . I never used CRPs on any of my cameras. One reason i was asking is: there´re some plates providing a "lip" for exactly aligning the body. That´s fine of course.

best to you, Klaus

I'm using one of these now on my Nodal Ninja 5L head. It is designed for use with cameras with offset tripod mounts but works very nicely with a DSLR too.

http://store.nodalninja.com/products/T-adapter-II-with-30mm-offset.html

Better than their CP-2 I think because there is a larger camera body mounting surface and the two adjustable 'stops' offer more resistance to twisting than the smaller lip on the CP-2. Cheap too, at least in the US.

Combined with the adjustable rail stop it makes it simple to mount/remount the camera in a highly reproducible fashion on the upper arm of the NN5.

I would like to get a rail made to allow me to use it with the Merlin.




Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by fma38 » Sun May 22, 2011 6:54 pm

geko5766 wrote:I would prefer the smaller Manfrotto 200pl14.

I also use this one for all my cameras/heads...
Frédéric

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by tived » Sun May 22, 2011 11:57 pm

How about you just have a screw mount, but allocate some room for people who are using camera plates.

One of the nice features of some of the AS style plates is the lip, the alignment markers on the plates, on some specific to your particular camera model. It is a more expensive option.

What is good about the AS and perhaps special is that you can get longer camera and lens plates which allows you to move the camera into the NP position, if different from default. Also it seems a relative easier solution for DIY people, if you look at the diagram I have in one of my links above.

The Manfrotto plates are cheap with is a very good point, but they can also break very easily, $20-30 for a plate or less vs AS plates which are around $60+ but I have never heard of anyone breaking their plates and considering that you could be placing $10-20k of gear onto this plate, I know which solution I will be using.

Given that one will want to use what they currently have, i think an open system will be the best and also easier for you guys (You and Josef)

I use an L-bracket on my own camera so I can change rotation from landscape to portrait without losing my opsition to the subject, this to me was the ticket into the AS system.

Each to their own, I have put forward a suggestion, but I say give us choice ;-)

Henrik

PS: Even the Merlin has a dove-tail, though different to AS, but it is still usable for AS, but because of the rounded corners it cou cause a smaller plate to slip.
Last edited by tived on Mon May 23, 2011 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Mon May 23, 2011 4:17 pm

tived wrote:using.

Given that one will want to use what they currently have, i think an open system will be the best and also easier for you guys (You and Josef)

Hi Henrik!

In fact it´s Josef - i just assist to him in terms of communicating. I also tend to either deliver what the client want by ordering a dedicated rail or a common rail which the client can configure him-/herself by attaching the mount he/she wants.

The plate with a lip definitely is preferable - as i learned myself when shooting architecture.

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Mon May 23, 2011 4:19 pm

mediavets wrote:Combined with the adjustable rail stop it makes it simple to mount/remount the camera in a highly reproducible fashion . . .

Right - that´s the way to go i mean!

best, Klaus
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by tived » Tue May 24, 2011 12:42 am

klausesser wrote:
tived wrote:using.

Given that one will want to use what they currently have, i think an open system will be the best and also easier for you guys (You and Josef)

Hi Henrik!

In fact it´s Josef - i just assist to him in terms of communicating. I also tend to either deliver what the client want by ordering a dedicated rail or a common rail which the client can configure him-/herself by attaching the mount he/she wants.

The plate with a lip definitely is preferable - as i learned myself when shooting architecture.

best, Klaus

Thanks Klaus,

The lip is great, never have your plate rotate - I use an L-plate which also has the lib, and though it adds extra weight (and fall protection) I wouldn't want to be without it.

I would suggest to make something really clever, or make something that is as open as possible to accommudate both small and large camera's with as much flexibility for the user to adapt his or hers prefered mouting option, which is probably just the screw, but add a safety screw to keep its orientation.

With the lip, not all camera's have the same profile and therefore will need a different plate. E.g. My L-plate for my 1Ds is different to my L-plate for my 1D Mk III & IV and again would be different again to a Nikon D700 etc...

I am sure you guys will come up with a good and sensible solution, you are a clever bunch and thanks for listening to us here, its much appreciated.

Henrik

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by caretaker360 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:37 pm

Hello Klaus,

I guess the best way to make your system as universal as possible is to have both standard screw sizes. Each shooter can choose his mount to match his style or what he already has. My preference is for the http://www.manfrotto.com/category/8709.0.0.0.0/Video plate from Manfrotto. Very large camera surface and dual bubble levels. It is however made for the 3/8 tripod mount.
Taking pre- orders? :-)
Christian
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Nikon D2x, 7000. Glass: 10.5 fe, 14mm asph, 20 , 50, 105, 24-120, 70-200
Panogear, BT dongel , Nokia n800 , PC's on W7 ..... now that I look at this, everything but time!

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by caretaker360 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:00 pm

Question about the Merlin/Jolie head.
I needed a quick solution for motorized head, the fellows at Kolor were real cool and got me one a.s.a.p.
It will get the job done but I was quite disappointed in the quality.
- I had to remount the bubble level to make it true.
- Even with a small camera (Nikon D7000) there is a tilt that needs to be corrected so I can not use the the rig without a camera quick release that I need to "shim" with .8 mm to make the camera perfectly level.
- Last but not least, I have always been working with a Manfrotto head that allowed me to center the camera in pivot point. This will never be possible with the Panogear. Infinity shots should not be an issue, but shooting in a car ....

Was I just a bit unlucky and got a lemon or am I too demanding?
If I push a bit and mount my D3x and a 300 mm, I expect to have to shim more :-(
*** just a few questions, not a complaint :-) if I wanted absoult there is the great Clauss at something like 5k €

Christian
Montreal
Evolution invented panoramic vision, Kodak invented the 4:3 format.

Nikon D2x, 7000. Glass: 10.5 fe, 14mm asph, 20 , 50, 105, 24-120, 70-200
Panogear, BT dongel , Nokia n800 , PC's on W7 ..... now that I look at this, everything but time!

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by mediavets » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:40 pm

caretaker360 wrote:Question about the Merlin/Jolie head.
I needed a quick solution for motorized head, the fellows at Kolor were real cool and got me one a.s.a.p.
It will get the job done but I was quite disappointed in the quality.

The Merlin/Panogear mount is a low cost Chinese made astro-telescope mount. The Chinese factory QA is far from exemplary.

- I had to remount the bubble level to make it true.

I have two Merlin mounts - neither supplied by Kolor - and on delivery the bubble levels had barely any liquid in them. I wouldn't take to much notice of that level. Fit another, or remount as you did. While you are at it make sure the base of the bubble level is opaque (put some tape over it if not) to avoid bright light leaking through and disrupting the operation of the optical encoders.

- Even with a small camera (Nikon D7000) there is a tilt that needs to be corrected so I can not use the the rig without a camera quick release that I need to "shim" with .8 mm to make the camera perfectly level.

I doubt that 0.8mm 'tilt would affect stitching at all.

- Last but not least, I have always been working with a Manfrotto head that allowed me to center the camera in pivot point. This will never be possible with the Panogear. Infinity shots should not be an issue, but shooting in a car ....

The Merlin/Panogear mount was not designed as a robotic pano head (it was designed as an astro-telecope mount) but it offers exceptional 'bang for your buck' when used as one with Paywizard control software or the Panogear/T&C touch controller.

That said there are also some limitations which arise from its astro-telescope 'heritage'. Some modification of the dovetail mount and rail will be required for larger camera bodies if you wish/need to mount the camera at the No Parallax Point (NPP). More precisely, if the dimension from the camera base to the centre of the lens mount (and/or the diameter of the lens barrel) is greater than 40mm, then you will need to modify the dovetail clamp and/or rail to mount the camera/lens in portrait orientation at the NPP.

Many user have modified the dovetail clamp and rail to enable the mounting of their camera/lens at the NPP in portrait orientation. You can see some these here:
http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Merlin-Orion-Papywizard_users_feedback

But a robotic pano head really comes into its own when shooting panos with longer focal length lenses comprising many tens or hundreds of images. These are typically partial panos of relatively distant scenes where it not necessary to mount the camera/lens at the NPP.
Was I just a bit unlucky and got a lemon or am I too demanding?

In my opinion, you are too demanding.

If I push a bit and mount my D3x and a 300 mm, I expect to have to shim more :-(

I guess you'll being using such a combination mounted in landscape orientation and shooting partial panos of relatively distant scenes? In this case mounting at the NPP is irrelevant. With such heavy gear it's more important that you mount the camera/lens close to the centre of mass than at the NPP.


*** just a few questions, not a complaint :-) if I wanted absoult there is the great Clauss at something like 5k €

Quite. If you have deep pockets then the Seitz Roundshot VR2 and the Clauss Rodeon heads have their attractions.

But Merlin/Panogear offers unrivalled price-performance.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by caretaker360 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:01 pm

:) Thanks for the insight !
Evolution invented panoramic vision, Kodak invented the 4:3 format.

Nikon D2x, 7000. Glass: 10.5 fe, 14mm asph, 20 , 50, 105, 24-120, 70-200
Panogear, BT dongel , Nokia n800 , PC's on W7 ..... now that I look at this, everything but time!

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by mediavets » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:09 pm

caretaker360 wrote::) Thanks for the insight !

I think you should be able to mount your D7000 and a Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye lens, or a 35mm DX, or a 50mm D lens - for those shoots inside cars - at the NPP (without a QR plate) in portrait orientation with just some simple modification to the rail.

A simple rail made from wood for example may offer sufficient additional clearance, like this:

http://www.kolor.com/forum/p37570-2009-01-24-23-56-43?pid=37570#p37570
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by klausesser » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:30 pm

caretaker360 wrote:Hello Klaus,

I guess the best way to make your system as universal as possible is to have both standard screw sizes. Each shooter can choose his mount to match his style or what he already has. My preference is for the http://www.manfrotto.com/category/8709.0.0.0.0/Video plate from Manfrotto. Very large camera surface and dual bubble levels. It is however made for the 3/8 tripod mount.
Taking pre- orders? :-)
Christian
Montreal

We yesterday decided to use a "lip" at the end of the rail where you can fix the camera and a short-slotted screw-hole to compensate different body-depths. This way all cameras can be fixed correctly without loosing their exact fixing.
In addition every user can fix his/her preferred QRP. We also decided to leave away any rubber, cork or so in order to avoid irritations here by tightening the screw more or less.

Deal? ;):cool:

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:48 pm

btw.: here´s a Nadir-image taken with the 35mm Nikon on a 5D2L

best, Klaus


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