TimeLapse Preset for continuos slew  

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vertrider
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TimeLapse Preset for continuos slew

by vertrider » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:04 pm

Hello Claude, hello Jones (Master of the Presets)!

I plan to do some 12-16 hr Day-to-Night-to-Day Astro TimeLapse the next weeks with my New Merlin Head and PW, and have the following question:

The Preset-Generator here is very interesting http://www.autopano.net/forum/t6748-papywizard-timelapse-preset-generator and thanks to Jones

but as far as I can see I can't use it for my TimeLapse Project because of Day to Night transition issue.

While I like the Idea of Stop-Motion-Stop TimeLapse, in my case it is not appropriate, because I need continuous motion of the Merlin from Point A to B at sidereal 1° per 4 minutes speed, for a given degree of horizontal panoramic move (eg 180°, 270° etc).

Continuous motion is necessary because especially during the day-night transition I have to adapt exposure of the camera a couple of times (say from 1" to 20" and ISO from 800 to 3200 etc), and later then again when it is getting completely dark. Exposure is then finally again adapted reverse for Night-Day transition. Later on Images are processed via Capture NX / Aperture / AfterEffects Workflow to reduce remaining luminance flicker (and correct lens aberration, saturation, luminance etc).

So, bottom line is, I can't use a fixed stop-motion-stop interval, but need continuous 1x sidereal movement because my exposure times are not fixed and vary.

How could I get a preset for that? I have no clue on JavaScript etc...

I hope I could explain the best what I would need that preset for...

Thanks for your help and where can I donate some bucks for all the coffee you guys are proably drinking ;)
Chris

PS: If I am wrong with the preset generator of Jones that would of course be nice, but then I'd need a tip for a setup of 25" seconds interval with no stop and continuous siderial movement
Last edited by vertrider on Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:41 pm

vertrider wrote:While I like the Idea of Stop-Motion-Stop TimeLapse, in my case it is not appropriate, because I need continuous motion of the Merlin from Point A to B at sidereal 1° per 4 minutes speed, for a given degree of horizontal panoramic move (eg 180°, 270° etc).

Timelapse usually is shot per stop-motion. You just need enough stops to combine to a movie-sequence.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by vertrider » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:59 pm

klausesser wrote:
vertrider wrote:While I like the Idea of Stop-Motion-Stop TimeLapse, in my case it is not appropriate, because I need continuous motion of the Merlin from Point A to B at sidereal 1° per 4 minutes speed, for a given degree of horizontal panoramic move (eg 180°, 270° etc).

Timelapse usually is shot per stop-motion. You just need enough stops to combine to a movie-sequence.

best, Klaus

Hi Klaus,

not true for Astrophotography TimeLapse, especially not for widefield (20 mm or less lens angle).

Two stunning Examples (Bernd is one of the best timelapse photographers in the world photographing for BBC, NG, ZDF, TWAN etc - see http://www.sternstunden.net/):

http://www.twanight.org/newTWAN/photos.asp?ID=3003102&Sort=Photographer

http://www.wdr.de/tv/quarks/sendungsbeitraege/2010/0323/006_wolken.jsp

Especially the timelapse at the end of the WDR television feature from Wendelstein is again beautiful.

Bernd shoots those timelapses with this EQ2 parallactic mount http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p417_Skywatcher-parallaktische-Montierung-EQ2-mit-Feldstativ.html where this motor is mounted to the equatorial axis and the mount itself pointed 90 degree to the sky http://www.teleskop-express.de/shop/product_info.php/info/p395_Skywatcher-Nachfuehrmotor-fuer-Montierung-EQ-2.html

I have used the AstroTrac (Astrotrac.com) for that purpose too the same way, but it is limited to 2 hrs timelapse by design (but very buttersmooth...).

So, that was where Merlin came into place, and in theory it can do just that continuous sidereal movement that the EQ2 and the AstroTrac do, but with much more possibilities and a broader field of use.

Cheers
Chris
Merlin GoTo w PapyWizard / BT Module (TA) / Touch Control Panel / DP MX2 Dolly Engine, AstroTrac TT320X-AG, Dynamic Perception Stage Zero, Nikon D3s, D700, D7000, Nikkor AF 16/2.8 Fisheye D, Nikkor AFS 14-24/2.8, AFS 24-70/2.8, AFS 80-200/2.8 D ED, AF 50/1.8, AF Micro Nikkor 60/2.8, TC2-EIII, iMac 27" i7, MBP 17" i7, Parallels WinXP, several RAIDs and NAS, cat, dog & fish :)

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by klausesser » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:28 pm

;):cool:

best, Klaus
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by claudevh » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:48 pm

To Klaus.

Both techniques "Continuous Motion" & "Shoot-Move-Shoot" are used in Timelapse depending the subjects.
A good reading is the next one "Motion Techniques and Terminology" :
http://openmoco.org/node/93

To Chris,

The Merlin is also able to drive at sideral rate or multiples of sideral rates by using the hand controler.
The preset generator is made for "Shoot-Move-Shoot" but you can allways combine it with a external trigger system like in the WDR television movie ...

A piece of Python software has also been produced by "fma38" only for Timelapse basic functions. This is in fact an "adapted to Timelapse" extract of Papywizard.
This is experimental and has no interface ...
I must find time to experiment further and provide a small interface ... but I am not a "Python" expert ...
:cool: Claude :cool:
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by klausesser » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:11 am

claudevh wrote:To Klaus.

Both techniques "Continuous Motion" & "Shoot-Move-Shoot" are used in Timelapse depending the subjects.
A good reading is the next one "Motion Techniques and Terminology" :

Yep - i experimented with both and found continuous movement unsuitable when it comes to high quality/resolution. You wouldn´t get really sharp images.
We sometimes used to shoot sky and ground extra. If the device is fixed to a star and the timing is correct you get a blurred ground . . .

best, Klaus
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by claudevh » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:24 am

Klauss, you are right for "blurred" parts of the individual picture, but if your end results is a "motion" picture in 1080p HD you don't see the blurr and the video has no "flikkering" also without any correction ! ;)
This is a huge gain of time in the "post production" !!! :)
The movements appears to be much more smooth with the "Continuous Motion" then in the "Shoot-Move-Shoot" method.
:cool: Claude :cool:
Merlin + Papywizard on Windows 7 & Nokia 770 § N810 & Acer (Netbook) + PanoramaApp Androïd + Deltawave PapyMerlin BT + Autopano
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by vertrider » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:25 am

claudevh wrote:To Klaus.

Both techniques "Continuous Motion" & "Shoot-Move-Shoot" are used in Timelapse depending the subjects.
A good reading is the next one "Motion Techniques and Terminology" :
http://openmoco.org/node/93

To Chris,

The Merlin is also able to drive at sideral rate or multiples of sideral rates by using the hand controler.
The preset generator is made for "Shoot-Move-Shoot" but you can allways combine it with a external trigger system like in the WDR television movie ...

A piece of Python software has also been produced by "fma38" only for Timelapse basic functions. This is in fact an "adapted to Timelapse" extract of Papywizard.
This is experimental and has no interface ...
I must find time to experiment further and provide a small interface ... but I am not a "Python" expert ...

Hi Claude,

the Hand Controller can be used of course but (at least my Merlin) ALWAYS moves yaw [ul]and[/ul] pitch axis with 1x speed.

Yaw axis only moves is restricted to 32x speed - terrestrial mode (way to fast for timelapse). Cannot use it like that.

About the Preset generator:

I have the same import problem with latest PW for OSX like user Bruper here:

http://www.autopano.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6748&p=2

Did you find a reason why it does not work? If I save as XML file with OSX, the preset does not show up after import in PW. If I save as textfile and rename as XML and then import, PapyWizard shows error logs like user Bruper describes...

Thx
Chris
Last edited by vertrider on Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Merlin GoTo w PapyWizard / BT Module (TA) / Touch Control Panel / DP MX2 Dolly Engine, AstroTrac TT320X-AG, Dynamic Perception Stage Zero, Nikon D3s, D700, D7000, Nikkor AF 16/2.8 Fisheye D, Nikkor AFS 14-24/2.8, AFS 24-70/2.8, AFS 80-200/2.8 D ED, AF 50/1.8, AF Micro Nikkor 60/2.8, TC2-EIII, iMac 27" i7, MBP 17" i7, Parallels WinXP, several RAIDs and NAS, cat, dog & fish :)

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by vertrider » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:57 am

claudevh wrote:Klauss, you are right for "blurred" parts of the individual picture, but if your end results is a "motion" picture in 1080p HD you don't see the blurr and the video has no "flikkering" also without any correction ! ;)
This is a huge gain of time in the "post production" !!! :)
The movements appears to be much more smooth with the "Continuous Motion" then in the "Shoot-Move-Shoot" method.

Here I have two quick samples, done with AstroTrac TT320X on continuous motion... Nightshots time set around 25 seconds per Shot. When transition to day happens time is of course getting shorter (thinking about using a ND filter for that situation). Stars are quite sharp. I was using the old AF 20mm/2.8 D, however the newer 14-24 is much much sharper at even 2.8 aperture, but I have to finish that timelapse first.

http://www.vimeo.com/20899553

http://www.vimeo.com/20899308

The problem with Stop-Motion-Stop is also the massive increase in time needed for a 270 degrees horizontal timelapse - it is about 24 hours and more.

Upper TimeLapse samples are about 3 hrs each (of course much less angle).

Cheers,
Chris
Last edited by vertrider on Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Merlin GoTo w PapyWizard / BT Module (TA) / Touch Control Panel / DP MX2 Dolly Engine, AstroTrac TT320X-AG, Dynamic Perception Stage Zero, Nikon D3s, D700, D7000, Nikkor AF 16/2.8 Fisheye D, Nikkor AFS 14-24/2.8, AFS 24-70/2.8, AFS 80-200/2.8 D ED, AF 50/1.8, AF Micro Nikkor 60/2.8, TC2-EIII, iMac 27" i7, MBP 17" i7, Parallels WinXP, several RAIDs and NAS, cat, dog & fish :)

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by klausesser » Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:52 am

vertrider wrote:Here I have two quick samples, done with AstroTrac TT320X on continuous motion... Nightshots time set around 25

Hi Chris!

Vimeo doesn´t allow an access.
Sorry - i´d have to create an account there. Will do it in the evening.
best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:46 pm

vertrider wrote:About the Preset generator:

I have the same import problem with latest PW for OSX like user Bruper here:

http://www.autopano.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=6748&p=2

Did you find a reason why it does not work? If I save as XML file with OSX, the preset does not show up after import in PW. If I save as textfile and rename as XML and then import, PapyWizard shows error logs like user Bruper describes...

Thx
Chris

These custom preset files must be saved with UTF-8 encoding - on Windows the easy way to do this is to use Notepad, on Macs I don't know.


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by vertrider » Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:49 pm

klausesser wrote:
vertrider wrote:Here I have two quick samples, done with AstroTrac TT320X on continuous motion... Nightshots time set around 25

Hi Chris!

Vimeo doesn´t allow an access.
Sorry - i´d have to create an account there. Will do it in the evening.
best, Klaus

Hi Claus,

as it its preliminary it is password protectet: just use "60Semmel60" as a PW and it should show fine ;).

Greez
Chris
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by klausesser » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:05 pm

Hey Chris!

Nice password . . . :cool:

Where´s the difference in results between shooting stop-motion and what you do? Your examples would look exactly the same when shot with stop-motion - wouldn´t they?
I did some tests using HDR - three shots per position, 250 positions in 5 hours. 10sec movie.
Don´t have it any more, i´m afraid - will search for it.

I`m going to buy a slider these days - 1,50m, motorized. I will use it for camera movement with HD video and with timelapse.
For timelapse there´s a fine slider-controller - must look for the link.

best, Klaus
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by vertrider » Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:23 pm

Hi Klaus!

thx :) As I cannot simulate stop-motion-stop yet with my Merlin (preset import problem, thanks to MediaVets for the tip, will try that) and the Cable for the D700 is on it's way (should be in within a week), I can only guess that it is mainly a difference regarding total shooting time.

When doing a continous move timelapse the head is permanently moving, and the DSLR releasing shutter within a given time interval (Tipp: if using standalone with CF card, one should add 2 secs to the shutter time for the interval, so that the camera can store the image on the CF card and do the next shot. if you arrest the release knob of an external timer and do continuos shooting without a pause in between, the cache of the camera memory gets full. at least with a D700 this is the case after 100 continuos shots. so I set it to "S" single shot, and release it via MC36 timer set to "infinite" shots, and it could shoot a week or unless the CF is full).

So, when doing stop-motion-stop, you have to add the extra time the head needs for move-pause-move per shot, and it adds up for total time. when doing a 12 hrs timelaps with a 22 sec interval and about 3500 pictures for a degree of about 270, I guess it makes a difference.

I did a stop motion preset for 3600 pics with SJHenrys timelapse for about those settings above, and it made for a 24hrs preset total time! But it only did it once then I got that import problem, and I can't replicate why...

RE: dolly

Which slider will you be using?

I openend up a new thread here: http://www.autopano.net/forum/t11501-mx2-controls-merlin

Seems that the MX2 arduino controller of this dolly (supported by openmoco.org) can talk to a Merlin in continuous and stop-motion, and that would give for a 3-axis system.

if that isn't DANG I don't know :)

cheers
chris
Merlin GoTo w PapyWizard / BT Module (TA) / Touch Control Panel / DP MX2 Dolly Engine, AstroTrac TT320X-AG, Dynamic Perception Stage Zero, Nikon D3s, D700, D7000, Nikkor AF 16/2.8 Fisheye D, Nikkor AFS 14-24/2.8, AFS 24-70/2.8, AFS 80-200/2.8 D ED, AF 50/1.8, AF Micro Nikkor 60/2.8, TC2-EIII, iMac 27" i7, MBP 17" i7, Parallels WinXP, several RAIDs and NAS, cat, dog & fish :)

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by jackjones » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:05 pm

Timelapse is definitely a possibility, but the thing is no one would ever know--of course unless they were the individual who had the power to make it happen. Time is like a wind mill, turning continuously, and behind that windmill you supporting its mechanics are <a href="http://www.kinematicsmfg.com" title="slewing drives">slewing drives</a>, which represent the man behind the scene. This is all possible through a higher power.


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