Nadir and Stitching  

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Nadir and Stitching

by Destiny » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:46 am

Hi there...

I thought I was doing great but then I came against the Nadir patching enough to cover the tripod head.. My first attempt I took 8 images using a fisheye lens with one up and one down... They stitched great.. perfect in fact... but there was too much of the head in the nadir .. So I then took 8 @ 45 degrees down, 8 @ 90 degrees and then 8 at 135 degrees up.. I did take the top image for extra measure but not down since I did not need it... I then stitched them together.. Here is the results.... http://members.westnet.com.au/dps/DudleighVR/NewTourTest.html

My first ever VR movie using the Autopano Pro too... Everything works great, I love that software.... The nadir patch looks great.. not problem.. BUT.. now the images do not stitch properly.. I set the camera lens correctly so thats not the problem... What I am thinking is to take more images...

Does anyone have any other suggestions.. Oh.. and I do not want to use PTGui Pro.. I really like to use AutopanoGiga for this..

Destiny :)

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by mediavets » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:26 pm

Remind me what camera, lens and pano head are you using?
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by klausesser » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:11 pm

Destiny wrote:Hi there...

I thought I was doing great but then I came against the Nadir patching enough to cover the tripod head.. My first attempt I took 8 images using a fisheye lens with one up and one down... They stitched great.. perfect in fact... but there was too much of the head in the nadir .. So I then took 8 @ 45 degrees down, 8 @ 90 degrees and then 8 at 135 degrees up.. I did take the top image for extra measure but not down since I did not need it... I then stitched them together.. Here is the results.... http://members.westnet.com.au/dps/DudleighVR/NewTourTest.html

My first ever VR movie using the Autopano Pro too... Everything works great, I love that software.... The nadir patch looks great.. not problem.. BUT.. now the images do not stitch properly.. I set the camera lens correctly so thats not the problem... What I am thinking is to take more images...

Does anyone have any other suggestions.. Oh.. and I do not want to use PTGui Pro.. I really like to use AutopanoGiga for this..

Destiny :)

You seem to have misaligned your setup. Using a fisheye use 6 shots horizontal plus 1 Zenith and 1 Nadir all in portrait-mode. If you don´t mind then pull the tripod aside and shoot a Nadir of the space the tripod covered before to get a Nadir-shot without seeing the head´s base and the tripodlegs.

best, Klaus

P. S. please forgive me advising you: don´t use such a "flat" light from the camera´s flash. There´s hardly any modulation and "deepness" - which is important for an image to look good . . :cool:
Last edited by klausesser on Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Destiny » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:20 pm

I am using a Nikon D90 with a Nikkor 10.5 Fisheye and a Nikon SB-700 Speedlight... I also have other good stuff... The Acratech GP Ballhead and the Nodal Ninja 3 mkII with R-D8 Rotator and I have just bought my new Manfrotto 55CXPRO4 4-Section Carbon Fiber Tripod Legs which is fantastic...

I have never tried 6 images on the horizontal so I will give that a try out today... I have tried taking a photo of the Nadir without the tripod before but I had problems in the lining up.. Its hard to keep the outstretched and take a photo without trembling... If if do not stretch-out I get my feet in the image... I saw one of those in this site where someone had put end to their legs which looked really funny....

Thank you for the insight into my flash.. I thought it looked a bit white but it was better than any of the other images... I can tone it down in Photoshop.. Do you think that will help...?? I will play with the flash.. I have only just bought it.. I have never used a Flash before.. I am only just starting out in this... I am happy with my first attempts but I need feedback such as yours to make sure I am creating quality VR movies... I need to take some outside images.. The weather has been yuck so its been hard... I hope to do our garden very soon...

I think also, I might have forgotten to make sure the bobble was level.... I got excited too much and forget things....I must right a list of check things to do... I now have a remote which is really good since I get excited and make the camera tremble... I am trying very very hard... I know so many things but I need to put this information all together to make great VR movies... I really love this new ptp... some do not like the interface but I love it... I think the stitching quality of apg is also great when I have the correct alinement of images...

Thank you boys for you support and comments... With your help I can only get better from here on...

D:

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by mediavets » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:06 pm

Avoid using the flash when shooting panos.

Use manual settings for everything, focus, aperture, shutter speed, white balance, and use the same settings for all images in the pano.

Forget patching the nadir for now until you can produce otherwise complete spherical panos reliably and consistently. Are you confident that you have the camera/lens set at the No Parallax Point (NPP)?

After that you can get into handling the nadir, shooting RAW, and possibly exposure bracketing.
Last edited by mediavets on Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Destiny » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:26 pm

Hi Andrew... I am not really certain I have the correct NPP setup.... I am counting on lining up by eye according to the user manual of the Ninja 3 mkII panno head.. Its says to line up the lens centre to the tripod and and to bring the lens forwards so the gold line on the lens is centre to the tripod. How do I check this is correct... One thing I need to check on is the movement in the head.. there seems to be a bit too much slack... Its ok since I am turning it clockwise so I do not notice the slack past the first turn but I am thinking perhaps it makes a difference....

Outch, no flash... emm... I am ok with the f stop, shutter speed but the white balance I leave on auto since that changes all the time... I will give it a go... I think I need to practice a heap more...

how do you go with stitching RAW.. did not think there was enough data to stitch.. but there again I am learning...

thank you

D:

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by mediavets » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:45 pm

Destiny wrote:Hi Andrew... I am not really certain I have the correct NPP setup.... I am counting on lining up by eye according to the user manual of the Ninja 3 mkII panno head.. Its says to line up the lens centre to the tripod and and to bring the lens forwards so the gold line on the lens is centre to the tripod. How do I check this is correct...

Here's one approach that I found useful:
http://www.easypano.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=1&TopicID=4162
One thing I need to check on is the movement in the head.. there seems to be a bit too much slack... Its ok since I am turning it clockwise so I do not notice the slack past the first turn but I am thinking perhaps it makes a difference....

Do you mean 'slack' in the rotator?

Outch, no flash... emm... I am ok with the f stop, shutter speed but the white balance I leave on auto since that changes all the time... I will give it a go... I think I need to practice a heap more...

I mean set and fix a custom WB for each pano scene, obviously you'd create a new custom setting for each pano scene.

Yes, practice is the way to go... but get that NPP sorted first. If it's not correct you will forever have stitching problems with indoor panos.

how do you go with stitching RAW.. did not think there was enough data to stitch.. but there again I am learning...

Forget it for now, one step and a time, but the experts (and I'm not an expert) process their RAW images prior to stitching.
Last edited by mediavets on Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by gkaefer » Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:44 am

looking to the top of the pano you see errors coming from not optimal set NPP...

OSP, NPP etc. docs:
http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm
http://www.autopano.net/forum/t6821-editing-nadir-shots-without-photoshop

nadir:
http://www.autopano.net/forum/t6821-editing-nadir-shots-without-photoshop

Liebe Gruesse,
Georg

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by Destiny » Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:16 am

oh wow.. this is all good information... Thank you for all that...

I have be really busy trying to make sure I have my lens set to the Nadir correctly.. I think I am almost there... This link will demonstrate what I have been doing as well as explain more about the slack I was talking about...

http://members.westnet.com.au/dps/TestStuff/NadirTests.html

I will try another VR to see if its stitches ok...

Destiny :)

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by Destiny » Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:01 am

Hi.. the last link has now been taken off.. I have a new one.. I used all manual settings and the stitching is quite good now so I might just about have it.. Not bad I think since I haven't been doing this for very long... Perhaps I should have cleaned my home before taking the images.. oh well.. it shows its been lived in...

http://members.westnet.com.au/dps/DudleighVR/NewNadirSetup.html

The only part that did not stitch perfectly as far as I can see is the far top cornice of the kitchen left of the window...

I am very pleased with the quality of this lens.... but I am not happy with the quality of the Ninja 3 pano head and its not cheap... The Rotator on the other hand is excellent..

Please feel free to be highly critical of my VR... its the only way I will improve... I think I have done so well in one day... with all your help!!

Destiny :)

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by Destiny » Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:48 am

Well... I notice a few more areas where the stitching is not correct using apg.... two areas on the baby fence and the edge of the bench top so I put it through PTGui Pro and it fixed those areas fine... but then it failed to stitch an area of the cornice above the book shelf. I tried to give it more location points but it did not work so I took a pice of the image from the apg stitched image and put it over the PTGui stitched pano image using Photoshop... sneaky me... While doing that I noticed a slight variation in colour between the two pano's.. I guess this is to be expected.. not to worry, easy fixed with Photostop for any small exposure issues... Here is the before and after..
http://members.westnet.com.au/dps/TestStuff/BeforeandAfter.html

Perhaps if I move my Nadir just a bit more it might fix the issue easily...

This is truly fun stuff.. I love it... another yuck day so perhaps I will get my outside Pano made made tomorrow....

Destiny :)

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by mediavets » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:27 am

Destiny wrote:Hi.. the last link has now been taken off.. I have a new one.. I used all manual settings and the stitching is quite good now so I might just about have it..

What aperture did you use? It is generally thought that this lens should be used with an aperture of about F4 or smaller for best results. I often use F8.

What focus setting?

The only part that did not stitch perfectly as far as I can see is the far top cornice of the kitchen left of the window...

Now try my suggested shooting pattern for indoor panos:
6-around at about -10 degrees pitch (set the pitch so you just get the outer edge of the rotator in the frame) then 6-around at about +50 pitch. No other shots. The zenith will be covered and there will be a small 'hole' at the nadir but no larger than the diameter of the rotator and you'll have to patch that out later anyway; there's no point in stitching in a nadir shot that shows the tripod.

I am very pleased with the quality of this lens.... but I am not happy with the quality of the Ninja 3 pano head and its not cheap... The Rotator on the other hand is excellent..

Yes, the Nikkor 10.5mm FE is widely considered the best in its class.

The images you showed where the markings on the upper rail rotator don't don't match on either side is not an issue, if that's what's upsetting you about the NN3. The designer explained why this was but I don't recall the explanation now. I have a NN5 and it's the same. Trust me it's not an issue, just use one of the marks for reference. The important think is to have the NPP set correctly, and there it's more vital that the lower rail setting is spot on than the upper rail setting; you also need to ensure that the plane of the camera sensor is at right angles to the upper rail.

The NN3 is probably the most widely used pano head in the wrold and produces excellent results.

Please feel free to be highly critical of my VR... its the only way I will improve... I think I have done so well in one day... with all your help!!

Destiny :)

You have done well in one day.

When you come to shoot outdoors try 6-around at about -10 pitch (as described above) and then one up at about +65 pitch. This will cover the zenith but is more likley to enable you to get a good link between the "zenith" shot and the main row than if you shoot the zenith at +90, especially if the zenith area is mainly or only sky. Choose the yaw position of the +65 pitch 'zenith' shot such that you have some matching features between the main row and the 'zenith' shot.

.........

If you were to use the Post reply link to create you post - rather than Quick post - you'll discover that you can upload up to 20 images with each post. Images are displayed in filename sort order so you can determine the display order by prefixing filenames with numbers.




Last edited by mediavets on Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:35 am

Destiny wrote:Well... I notice a few more areas where the stitching is not correct using apg.... two areas on the baby fence and the edge of the bench top so I put it through PTGui Pro and it fixed those areas fine... but then it failed to stitch an area of the cornice above the book shelf. I tried to give it more location points but it did not work so I took a pice of the image from the apg stitched image and put it over the PTGui stitched pano image using Photoshop... sneaky me... While doing that I noticed a slight variation in colour between the two pano's.. I guess this is to be expected.. not to worry, easy fixed with Photostop for any small exposure issues... Here is the before and after..
http://members.westnet.com.au/dps/TestStuff/BeforeandAfter.html

Perhaps if I move my Nadir just a bit more it might fix the issue easily...

This is truly fun stuff.. I love it... another yuck day so perhaps I will get my outside Pano made made tomorrow....

Destiny :)

Did you use the APG Control Points Editor to see whether there was simple explanation for why you had those small stitch errors?

I think you'll go crazy trying to use both APG and PTGui they have a rather different approach to stitching - and as for combining the output of both to produce one pano , well....should I break out the straitjacket? ;)

Spherical panos of interiors are the most challenging type of panos, you'll probably find it much easier to produce outdoor panos.
Last edited by mediavets on Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by klausesser » Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:47 pm

mediavets wrote:Yes, the Nikkor 10.5mm FE is widely considered the best in its class.

Agree! Best use @f:8 i mean.

best, Klaus
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by gkaefer » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:51 am

small trick:

inside your pano go down to nadir (move with your mouse down until it stops...) than point one finger on the nadir on your screen and than rotate with the mouse to the left or right side... your nadir point does not remain on the same point...

Liebe Gruesse,
Georg

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by Destiny » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:02 am

oh wow... does that mean its not right??? I never knew it was supposed stay in one position.. :(

I have been working today so unable to play.. I made my last pano set at 6 shutter speed and f5.6.. I will have to try f8 now I have a starting point... What shutter speed would you use for indoors..?? I thought the images looked ok but the light from the windows was a bit too much...

Have any of you used this technique>>
http://www.rosaurophotography.com/html/technical7.html

Just on a different matter.. I found a really cheap web site for lenses... I just received a Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D.. I only paid $111Aus for it + $20 express post.. It only took 3 business days to arrive from Singapore.. If I purchased the same lens in Aus it would have cost $170 + $70 ph.. The Nikon AF DX Fisheye-Nikkor 10.5mm f/2.8G ED lens from these guys cost only $615... I paid $715 just a few months ago from an online shop... Most of the time its the postage that kills buying online but those people do not over charge.. Their web site looks a bit dicky but my lens arrived ok and I paid using Paypal so safe... But I guess it all depends where you live and the exchange rates... Anyway.. this is their web link....

http://www.t-dimension.com/revamp/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=10.5mm+f%2F2.8G+ED+DX+Fisheye+Le&x=27&y=11

When I get rich I want to buy the Nikon D3x 24.5 MP... :):):)... But for now my D90 will be just fine...

Now I have to make a new Pano and try and get that silly Nadir centred..

D

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by gkaefer » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:34 am

Destiny wrote:oh wow... does that mean its not right??? I never knew it was supposed stay in one position.. :(

I have been working today so unable to play.. I made my last pano set at 6 shutter speed and f5.6.. I will have to try f8 now I have a starting point... What shutter speed would you use for indoors..?? I thought the images looked ok but the light from the windows was a bit too much...

Have any of you used this technique>>
http://www.rosaurophotography.com/html/technical7.html

(...)

When I get rich I want to buy the Nikon D3x 24.5 MP... :):):)... But for now my D90 will be just fine...

(...)
D

... about the if I get rich...: have a look here:
http://www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/internet/de/application/d438/d925/f934.cfm
:D

if my tip says that your nadir is still wrong? .... maybe.
if your pano head was perfectly alligned vertically & horizontally and if your horizon line before stitiching pano is perfectly alligned horizontally than I would review my setup about NPP

about link of NPP.... yes the belgium link in above mail I added is quite the same technique. I did use it to allign my 18-55mm kit lens for my canon. each focal length results in different NPP ;-(

lg
Georg
Last edited by gkaefer on Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:52 am

oh wow.. what technology... I could never afford that!! However... Now.. who would like to buy my left kidney...:)

I have to play and play and play until I get this right... Now you have shown me your HOT tip.. I have my finger pointing at every VR I look at... I think my Nadir is drunk!!!... ether that or I have a wonky eye... Thank you for sharing that really cool tip!

D

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by Destiny » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:25 am

The 'info' box on my pano says..

8 images
15 Links between images
397 control points

Stitching quality
Global RMS is good: 4.66

Well at least its good... but I want excellent... I want to stick with apg with this since I really like this software, even though its crashed a few times... That might be my files sizes those and not the software... I really like the new ptp.. its really easy to use and has just about everything I want except the ability to create fla files.. but I am told its coming...

D

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by mediavets » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:50 am

Destiny wrote:The 'info' box on my pano says..

8 images
15 Links between images
397 control points

Stitching quality
Global RMS is good: 4.66

Well at least its good... but I want excellent... I want to stick with apg with this since I really like this software, even though its crashed a few times... That might be my files sizes those and not the software... I really like the new ptp.. its really easy to use and has just about everything I want except the ability to create fla files.. but I am told its coming...

D

Did you check the links in the Control Point Editor?

Do you have links between non-adjacent images?

If are you are stitching in nadir shots - rather than patching the nadir after stitching and renedering - then that probably accounts for the higher RMS value.

Be aware that it is not necessarily the case with APG that the lower the Global RMS the better the stitch - PTGui's 'goodness of fit' values are different.
Andrew Stephens
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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Destiny » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:46 pm

I tried Andrew but I am still getting my head round that part of apg... I found it all very slow but I think its my file size... it might be too big and makes it slow... There always seem to be so much more to this... great when you know how but tricky to get head round...

I downloaded one of the images that George put on the link with the oh wow hardware.. it was a hug file but I couldn't do anything with it.. I think if you can create such a large pano image in seconds then having people in your scene would not be a problem.. .. Love to play with it all but I guess I will leave all that to the very rich experts... and hope one day I win the lotto.... but then I guess it all becomes a hobby.. and oh boy what a lovely hobby to have..... just look at all the fun thing I am learning.. To be honest.. its software like kolor make that keeps me excited.. I found many of the other apps expensive and not so fun to use...

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by gkaefer » Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:04 pm

about slow...

the imput images... which format do you use: raw, tiff, jpg...?
for just testing jpg will be fastest, if your satisfied finally with your pano make same again with tiffs... I would avoid using raws directly, because APG's converter can never be better than the rawe converter coming with your cams software package...

PTP: big image & pano & speed .... avoid using image quality level 12 for the jpgs... use 10 and it will be lightning faster and with acceptable quality

lg
Georg
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by klausesser » Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:00 pm

"and hope one day I win the lotto.... but then I guess it all becomes a hobby.. and oh boy what a lovely hobby to have..... just loo"

. . and in the meantime you can learn the very basics of panorama - making.
Because that will save you a lot of time and money.

In fact you don't need much money as long as you know what you're doing and why. :cool:

Best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Destiny wrote:but I think its my file size... it might be too big and makes it slow...

What IS your file-size? Let me tell you that i´m just working on a 3,4 gigapixel sphere. Filesize is around 27GB natively - i cut the vertical angle and so i have about 7GB now.

APG rendered it in about 40 min. as TIFF and PTP handles it very fast when it makes an interactive pano with limited vertical angle and deep zoom - that makes a 250MB file on the server. See it here:

www.360impressions.de/Hafen/Hafen85.html

This is a test for size and loading-speed - no optimization or colourcorrection was used.

So i definitely don´t believe that your files are "too big and make it slow" - assumed you´re not working on a netbook . . :cool:

best, Klaus

P.S.: you don´t have to wait until you can afford a D3 - your D90 is very fine to make good panos. I used a 20D for several years and did really big images with it:
http://www.klausesser.de/MARTa/MARTa.html stitched, edited and rendered on a 2004 Mac.
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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Destiny
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by Destiny » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:47 pm

Hey boys... I could not sleep last night thinking about something nagging at me... When I set the bubble level I noticed that the trip pod bubble was not the same... Soo... perhaps its my bubble!!.. I will make an all new pano... ignoring the pano head bubble and go back to setting and testing the Nadir using the tripods bubble.. I will then take a pano on the angles suggested above creating two rows which I prefer anyway... I will set my lens to about f8 and hope its all good..

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