APT 1.000 - More Information Please

[BrianLR]

APT 1.000 - More Information Please

by BrianLR » Tue May 05, 2009 12:58 am

Please can we have a clear statement of the capabilities of the current version of APT 1.0 vs APT + KRPano upgrade and when that is due and what it will cost. As this is a major part of the APG package it should be clear what this is, what it will be and where it is going. I see no mention of this on any of the publicity materials on the web site only buried deep on the forums and not readily available.

APT 1.000 displays tours better in some ways than the alpha/beta releases, but not the resolution, which really does need the upgrade mentioned in the banner on the trial version. Also I find the need to play with the parameters a lot and there is not a lot of guidance about that, it certainly is not as 'automatic' as APP/APG is to use.

I am hoping that the release with the full KRPano tool set will deliver the promise of what could be a powerful, high resolution tour package. The question is how will we be able to trial this package before committing?

Last edited by BrianLR on Sat May 09, 2009 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

[renan]

by renan » Tue May 05, 2009 3:56 pm

In APT, there is 2 main differences between with or without KRPano license :
- the produced swf has a limited picture resolution
- you don't have access to XML produced ( so you cannot add manually all KRPano others features : projection, scripting, design, etc ).

Autopano Tour standard mode can be seen as a light KRpano license mode. Our aim is that this standalone mode answers to the majority of users that want a nice virtual tour.
More advanced users want the best and will need to buy a real KRPano license to get the best of the tool. For example, when a KRpano license is used, exporting in APT is done using multiresolution to allow progressive loading.

While doing development ( during beta stage ), discussions about KRpano limitations have already started.

At the begin, export was exclusively cubical with a maximum size of 1024 per cube face. This limitation was not compatible with partial panorama. So we added the possibility to export partial panorama in spherical projection with another way to measure the limit ( instead of cube face, it's the spherical width ).

The current limitation are either :
- 1024 pixels for a cube face in the case of a 360 x 180 panorama
- 3072 as maximum width and 1536 for maximum size in height for partial panorama.

Now, there is a bug in the v1.0.0 that exports partial panorama with a too big definition resulting in the black screen issue. It will be corrected in the next day.

The future limitation have been raised. It has been negociated with Klaus from KRPano. So in a next release ( don't know yet when ) :
- 1200 pixels for the cube face size in full 360 case.
- 7 000 000 pixels in partial panorama case ( that's 37% more pixels than 3072 x 1536 ).


*********************

Dans APT, il y a 2 différences principales entre avec ou sans licence KRPano :
- la résolution des images exportées est limité
- il n'y a pas de possibilités d'éditer le code xml produit (vous ne pouvez pas utiliser toutes les possibilités de Krpano : choix de projection, ajout d'action, design, etc.)

Autopano Tour en mode standard peut être considéré comme intégrant une licence light de KRpano. Notre objectif est que ce mode réponde à  la majorité des utilisateurs qui veulent une belle visite virtuelle. Les utilisateurs plus avancés qui veulent le meilleurs devrons acheter une véritable licence KRPano pour obtenir le meilleur de l'outil. Par exemple, quand une licence KRpano est utilisée, l'export se fait en multiresolution afin de permettre le chargement progressif des données.

Lors de la phase de développement (pendant la béta), des discussions sur les limites de KRpano ont déjà  débutées.

Au départ, l'export était exclusivement cubique d'une taille maximale de 1024 par face de cube. Cette limite était très contraignante pour les panoramas partiels. Donc, nous avons ajouté la possibilité d'exporter les panoramas partiels en projection sphérique avec un autre mode de calcul pour la limitation.

Les limitations actuelles sont:
- 1024 pixels pour la face d'un cube dans le cas d'un panorama 360 x 180
- 3072 de largeur maximale et 1536 de hauteur maximale pour un panorama partiel.

Maintenant, il y a un bug dans la v1.0.0 pour l'export des panoramas partiels. Les images exportées sont trop grandes et un bandeau noir apparait dans le Flash produit. Ce bug sera corrigé dans les prochains jours.

Pour l'avenir, de nouvelles limitations ont été négociées avec Klaus de KRPano. Ainsi, dans une prochaine version (on ne sais pas encore quand) les limites seront:
- 1200 pixels pour la taille des faces du cube.
- 7 000 000 pixels pour les panoramas partiels (ce qui fait 37% de pixels en plus par rapport à  l'actuel l3072 x 1536).

[BrianLR]

by BrianLR » Tue May 05, 2009 9:43 pm

Renan

Thanks for addressing the resolution question. Does that mean that currently a 360 degree panorama has a maximim size of 4048 X 2024 and that it will go up to 4800 x 2400 in the near future? What is the maximum for the KrPano unlimited?

What happened to the Nadir patch option?

I think I read somewhere on the forum (APP Bugs?) that there may be a special bundle price for APG with KrPano unlimited, is that so? And what is KrPano Unlimited as there is no product with that specific name on the KrPano site?

The question remains will we be able to trial this unlimited package before committing?

Brian

Last edited by BrianLR on Tue May 05, 2009 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Tue May 05, 2009 10:09 pm

And what is KrPano Unlimited as there is no product with that specific name on the KrPano site?

Brian,

I think this refers to an Unlimited domain license.
http://krpano.com/buy/

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Tue May 05, 2009 10:14 pm

What happened to the Nadir patch option?

Brian

Perhaps not what you expect(ed) but it's there and it works - it embeds the image (PNG, JPEG, TIFF) you select at the nadir, transparency is respected in formats that support it.

http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Autopano_Tour#Panorama

Last edited by mediavets on Tue May 05, 2009 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[renan]

by renan » Wed May 06, 2009 9:42 am

Does that mean that currently a 360 degree panorama has a maximim size of 4048 X 2024 and that it will go up to 4800 x 2400 in the near future? What is the maximum for the KrPano unlimited?
Brian

When you compute a cube, the equivalent size is often considered as the perimeter of the sphere included in this cube. For cube faces of 1200 pixels, equivalent width is 1200 * Pi = 3768 pixels.
With Krpano unlimited, maximum face size is currently 5000 but we plain to treat gigapixel panoramas and to remove this limitation.

What happened to the Nadir patch option?

Nadir option is accessible only when a full 360 panorama is selected.

I think I read somewhere on the forum (APP Bugs?) that there may be a special bundle price for APG with KrPano unlimited, is that so? And what is KrPano Unlimited as there is no product with that specific name on the KrPano site?

This bundle will be available at the end of May.

The question remains will we be able to trial this unlimited package before committing?

We are in discussion with krpano to found a good solution to allow that.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Wed May 06, 2009 11:33 am

The question remains will we be able to trial this unlimited package before committing?

We are in discussion with krpano to found a good solution to allow that.

That would be good.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Wed May 06, 2009 11:36 am

With Krpano unlimited, maximum face size is currently 5000 but we plain to treat gigapixel panoramas and to remove this limitation.

Any idea of timescale for this development?

[James]

by James » Fri May 08, 2009 8:22 pm

I have to agree that the krpano license integration issue is most confusing.

What I am not happy about is that the Autopano Tour trial version (0.9x) and release version do not behave the same. And the pano size limitations are not well documented! In fact, it doesn't make any sense that if I buy a GIGA product I get MEGA performance (as in limited to 7 MegaPixels!?). And that doesn't even work right now. I have a 3700x700 "partial" pano (360x57) that looked great in the trial version and looks like junk in the release, because as I discovered after 2 hours of frustration, there is a 3000 something width restriction!

Also, something was mentioned relating to "partial loading" available with full krpano license? What does this mean? Please don't tell me the trial version (0.9x) had partial loading and the release does not. I was impressed that the flash player loaded my panos so efficiently, I hope I don't discover this is not the case any more.

APG is an excellent product but you must have serious discussions with the KrPano people to figure out these very confusing licensing problems. XML support should be the only thing missing in APG Tour.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Sat May 09, 2009 12:54 am

I discovered after 2 hours of frustration, there is a 3000 something width restriction!

The current limit appears to be exactly 3072 in width (and 1536 in height).

Quite why it is these 'magic' numbers I don't know - but it will be increased:

http://www.autopano.net/forum/p44542-2009-05-05-15-56-03#p44542

Renan,

If there is to be a fixed max. limit like this for partial panos then I think the program should not allow a user set a higher number - just as it doesn't allow a value for cube face size of greater than 1024 (currently) for sphericals unless you have an unlimited domains krpano license.

Last edited by mediavets on Sat May 09, 2009 1:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

[BrianLR]

by BrianLR » Sat May 09, 2009 2:03 am

In fact, it doesn't make any sense that if I buy a GIGA product I get MEGA performance (as in limited to 7 MegaPixels!?). And that doesn't even work right now. I have a 3700x700 "partial" pano (360x57) that looked great in the trial version and looks like junk in the release, because as I discovered after 2 hours of frustration, there is a 3000 something width restriction!

I agree with James that it make no sense to have a 'Giga' product so limited in performance. I have found that loading a 12440 x 4437 pixel pano, 360 x 150 with no nadir, that the output it is reduced to a 990kb tour flash file, that looks very fuzzy. I am not sure what is happening here, if this really is what a reduction to 3072 x 1536 looks like I do not think an increase to 3768 x 1884 will look much different. Is this related to the following issue http://www.autopano.net/forum/p43353-2009-04-21-04-23-47#p43353 ? So far I am revising my opinion of APT, as it does not seem to be out of beta. We need more explaination and information, please.

Last edited by BrianLR on Sun May 10, 2009 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Sat May 09, 2009 1:31 pm

Renan,

Please also see this post:

http://www.autopano.net/forum/p44866-today-12-01-29#p44866

Last edited by mediavets on Sat May 09, 2009 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[roudoudou]

by roudoudou » Sat May 09, 2009 1:52 pm

Bonjour,smile
je suis un petit nouveau sur votre forum. Déjà  merci de partager vos expériences et je ne manquerai pas de faire de même si je peux.
Voila j'ai acheté la licence Autopano Giga, pour le module Autopano Tour.
Déjà  il y a un bug : si l'on change le champ angulaire -> impossible d'avoir l'affichage, message nous demande de passer avec le module Krpano.
Mais ce point n'est pas la raison de mon premier post. Il est surtout sur le faite que les faces soient limitées a 1024 (vraiment trop juste à  mon gout pour avoir un qualité correcte dans un panoramique 360 et surtout pourquoi limité ), du coup j'ai regardé le cout et utilisation du module KRpano et la ça se complique, pas le faite de dépenser encore des euros (quoi que) mais sur l'utilisation même du module, pour être franc je n'ai rien compris....et j'ai pas, non plus, trouvé de post d'explication en français.Peut être pouvez vous me donner quelques explications sur l'utilisation de KRpnao.
Merci d'avance de vos réponses.


PS : un modérateur peut il effacer mon premier message qui n'etait pas dans le bonne rubrique.

Hello,
forgiveness for my English (I use a translator)


Hello,
I am a newcomer on your forum. Already thank you for sharing your experiences and I will certainly do the same if I can.
Here I bought the license Autopano Giga, for the module Autopano Tour.
Already there is a bug: if you change the field angle -> impossible to have the display message asks us to proceed with the module Krpano.
But that's not the reason for my first post. It is mainly on the fact that the sides are limited to 1024 (really just my taste to have a proper quality in a 360 and mostly limited to), hence I have watched the cost and use of the module and KRpano it is complicated, not made to spend more euros (whatever) but the use of the module, to be honest I did not understand .... and I have also not found after of explanation can be français.Peut you give me some explanations on the use of KRpnao.
Thank you in advance for your answers.

[renan]

by renan » Mon May 11, 2009 9:27 am

j'ai pas, non plus, trouvé de post d'explication en français

J'ai ajouté une version française à  la réponse initiale.

[BrianLR]

by BrianLR » Tue May 12, 2009 2:04 am

What happened to the Nadir patch option?

Brian

Perhaps not what you expect(ed) but it's there and it works - it embeds the image (PNG, JPEG, TIFF) you select at the nadir, transparency is respected in formats that support it.

http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Autopano_Tour#Panorama

I had adjusted the vertical FOV and so it had disappeared, I can see it now.

Thanks.

[renan]

by renan » Tue May 12, 2009 10:25 am

I had adjusted the vertical FOV and so it had disappeared, I can see it now.

Nadir option is accessible only when a full 360 panorama is selected.
And a full 360 has a FOV of 360x180 and a null offset.

[gerpho]

by gerpho » Sun May 31, 2009 3:37 pm

I will add my complain to these. I had been using Pano2VR to make flash animations out of my aerial panoramas (stitched with APP 1.4). When I discovered that APG could do the same plus hotspots, very easily, I tried it and bougth it immediately. But what a disappointement when I discovered that the resolution was so poor. In fact the zoom in feature is almost useless, since you get almost no increase in resolution when I zoom in.

OK, I understand that the answer is buying a krpano licence... but I would like to keep the nice ease of use of the APT GUI. Could it be possible to have an enhanced APT where the 3072px limitation just doesn't exist (I know it'll cost me some extra €€'s). I don't care about digging into complicated features, all I want is the ability to display nice animated high resolution panos, with hotspots ; and I want to go on doing this within 5 minutes and 10 clics as in APT. I don't want to learn how to use another software again, and link the two and so on.

And frankly, if the cost of the KRpano licence is 30€ (as seen on the web site?), it seems a little mean not to include it in a software where owners of APP1.4 pay an extra 150€ to buy the "giga" ability, and end up with flash outputs hardly above the "mega" limit !

Finally another question related to stitching flat vertical aerial pictures with ortho features. I have seen somewhere (unable to find it again) that an update would be available Q4. What will it include ? is there a post where this is explained in more detail ?

[HDVR]

by HDVR » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:53 pm

I have exactly the same comments/questions as Gerpho... He posted his post over a week ago and there has not been an answer, at least not in this forum. Are the developers of APT also active in this forum r/e; do I have to send them these sort of questions directly? I mean as well as posting them in the forum?

Very keen to hear a clear answer on the resolution issue - APT is useless to me without a proper output resolution. I also have used Pano2VR so far and the output is sooooo much better. But very complicated to build virtual tours so I waited till the release of APT. So, what to do now...? I have to get started straight away, we're working on a website that needs the a tour.

Anyone with a clear up to date answer? Many thanks...

[digipano]

by digipano » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:15 pm

Finally another question related to stitching flat vertical aerial pictures with ortho features. I have seen somewhere (unable to find it again) that an update would be available Q4. What will it include ? is there a post where this is explained in more detail ?

Orthographic panorama features were suppose to be part of APG but no time line was announced, but still you can do it with present version.

when you load Ariel images for ortho pano, change the focal length in exif to 1000mm that would stitch the pano well without any error, the altitude must be same so the output features match.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:25 pm

I have exactly the same comments/questions as Gerpho... He posted his post over a week ago and there has not been an answer, at least not in this forum. Are the developers of APT also active in this forum r/e; do I have to send them these sort of questions directly? I mean as well as posting them in the forum?

No, they will respond via the forum.

Very keen to hear a clear answer on the resolution issue - APT is useless to me without a proper output resolution. I also have used Pano2VR so far and the output is sooooo much better. But very complicated to build virtual tours so I waited till the release of APT. So, what to do now...? I have to get started straight away, we're working on a website that needs the a tour.

Anyone with a clear up to date answer? Many thanks...

Just what sort/levl of resolution do you need/want?

I think the addition of a krpano unlimited doimains licxense will 'unlock' sufficient resolution for many users, but if you can give me a better idea of the resolution you are seeking/needing then I can probaly provide a more specific answer.

It is Kolor's declared goal/intention to enable the handling of gigapixel panos via APT in later versions but the cirrent version is more restricted in terms of max. res..

[gerpho]

by gerpho » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:24 pm

Very keen to hear a clear answer on the resolution issue - APT is useless to me without a proper output resolution. I also have used Pano2VR so far and the output is sooooo much better. But very complicated to build virtual tours so I waited till the release of APT. So, what to do now...? I have to get started straight away, we're working on a website that needs the a tour.

Anyone with a clear up to date answer? Many thanks...

Since I had no answer I went on searching through the maze of the forum topics, and eventually found a topic in French, http://www.autopano.net/forum/t6414-qualita-d-images-mauvaise explaining that the resolution is deliberately locked to a low value ; this can be unlocked to "unlimited" by buying a krpano (90€ excl VAT) licence on the Kolor website. If you already have bought the APG licence, you will get 10€ discount on this price with the PROMOPLDA code (still quite expensive).
Apparently once you have bought the licence, you must go in the APT "register" menu, to include this module into your APT, and then evrything is straightforward. (I haven't done it (yet))

I eventually found a page on the "software" page of the Kolor website, where all this is detailed http://www.kolor.com/buy/software/krpano/krpano-flash-panorama-viewer-unlimited-domain-license.html?id=23&category=14&___store=eng&___from_store=default. Strangely it is very poorly advertised, so that many people go on wondering why their virtual tour is so lousy. If you haven't bought the APG licence yet, you can buy the bundle including krpano on this page http://www.kolor.com/buy/software/pack-economique-autopano-giga-2-0-licence-illimitee-krpano.html. However I haven't tested any of these... I'll let you know about it when (if?) I do.
(I wonder if i'll get a special commission for doing commercial work for Kolor ).

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:43 pm

I told you that already.

But be aware that there are still upper limits to resolution with the current version of APT even with a krpano unlimited domains license, so depending on what you are hoping to do you may still be disappointed.

Last edited by mediavets on Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[gerpho]

by gerpho » Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:33 pm

I told you that already.

Indeed you did. But the direct links to the right pages might help others not wasting time wandering around to find it. I'm probably a bit slow witted , but even knowing that krpano would help, it took me hours before I found out how and where I could use it. And I actually did this search before you answered. However, I hadn't seen an upper limit to the krpano tour. Could you tell me more, or give me an indication on where I can read more ?

[roudoudou]

by roudoudou » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:20 pm

la taille maximale est 5000 par face , si j'ai bien lu ?
Mais,je n'ai pas encore franchi le pas pour prendre le module KRpano...j'attends aussi confirmation. le plus simple serait de donner la résolutions Max du panoramique possible en Multi-résolution.
Merci

Last edited by roudoudou on Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[[bo]]

by [bo] » Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:23 pm

gerpho, I don't understand French, so could you explain how do you do those aerial panoramas? If you don't want to post in this topic, an email/private message will do. Thanks in advance!