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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:01 am 
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Ok, it's time to think about this feature. The idea is to implement something simple for the release 1.6; complete timelapse features will be for the v2.

For now, I propose to add a timer, to start a pano at a specified time (several shooting times could be defined), and an intervalometer, to shoot a pano every x hour/minuture/second.

How do you want it implemented? Where do you want to define it in the GUI?

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Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:28 am 
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You are crazy. This tool is going to be the swiss army panorama head tool. :)

Joke apart, I like this idea.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:05 pm 
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AlexandreJ wrote:
You are crazy. This tool is going to be the swiss army panorama head tool. :)

Joke apart, I like this idea.

It's not mine, but I also like it; I think it can open new ways of shooting...

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Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:33 pm 
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fma38 wrote:
Ok, it's time to think about this feature. The idea is to implement something simple for the release 1.6; complete timelapse features will be for the v2.

For now, I propose to add a timer, to start a pano at a specified time (several shooting times could be defined), and an intervalometer, to shoot a pano every x hour/minuture/second.

Are these two separate functions or can they be rolled into one?

One might want to auto start the Intervalometer in which case that involves the Timer function. OTOH you might want to shoot at irregular intervals at specific times and that would need the ability to set specific times for shoots in the Timer.

Hmm....I need to think through some of the more likely scenarios and see how they 'map' to Timer and Intervalometer.

I would prefer that we don't make these things more complicated than we need.

fma38 wrote:
How do you want it implemented? Where do you want to define it in the GUI?

First thoughts are to keep the settings for Timers and Intervalometer in new tabs in Configure and then provide check boxes to turn them on/off in the Shooting tab of Configure?

Then we need some indicators and some feedback displayed in the Shooting window. Something to indicate that these functions are on and perhaps some indication of when last shot was taken or when next shot will be taken (like a countdown)? Problem with that sort of running feedback is that I guess it will use a lot more battery power?

In any event we are going to run in power issues - and storage - when using these functions espscially in relying on battery power.

How many cameras will remain powered up for long periods unless supplied with power from external power sources?

How long will a Nokia Tablet run Paywizard with Intervalometer and/or Timer active before batteries are exhausted?

How many shots can be accommodated on removable storage on the camera?

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:12 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
Are these two separate functions or can they be rolled into one?

One might want to auto start the Intervalometer in which case that involves the Timer function. OTOH you might want to shoot at irregular intervals at specific times and that would need the ability to set specific times for shoots in the Timer.

Hmm....I need to think through some of the more likely scenarios and see how they 'map' to Timer and Intervalometer.

I would prefer that we don't make these things more complicated than we need.

I agree. I think I will first implements the intervalometer. Then add the timer, as exclusive, then mix both ;)

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First thoughts are to keep the settings for Timers and Intervalometer in new tabs in Configure and then provide check boxes to turn them on/off in the Shooting tab of Configure?

This is a solution. But do we need to save such settings? The other way is to open a special dialog from the shooting dialog, and enter values there. They will be saved as long as you don't close the app, as for title/gps/comment data when you activate the data file.

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Then we need some indicators and some feedback displayed in the Shooting window. Something to indicate that these functions are on and perhaps some indication of when last shot was taken or when next shot will be taken (like a countdown)?

Good idea.

Quote:
Problem with that sort of running feedback is that I guess it will use a lot more battery power?
In any event we are going to run in power issues - and storage - when using these functions espscially in relying on battery power.
How many cameras will remain powered up for long periods unless supplied with power from external power sources?
How long will a Nokia Tablet run Paywizard with Intervalometer and/or Timer active before batteries are exhausted?
How many shots can be accommodated on removable storage on the camera?

I guess in will depend of batteries age, and camera models...

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Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:47 pm 
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AlexandreJ wrote:
You are crazy. This tool is going to be the swiss army panorama head tool. :)

Hi Alexandre!

In fact it is already! :P:cool: At least in combination with a Merlin.
I didn´t see a more versatile handheld controlling ever, nowhere.
You can put it into your pocket and opereate it with BlueTooth at about 10 m distance using a N770 or N800.
GREAT stuff . . !

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:05 pm 
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fma38 wrote:
mediavets wrote:
Are these two separate functions or can they be rolled into one?

One might want to auto start the Intervalometer in which case that involves the Timer function. OTOH you might want to shoot at irregular intervals at specific times and that would need the ability to set specific times for shoots in the Timer.

Hmm....I need to think through some of the more likely scenarios and see how they 'map' to Timer and Intervalometer.

I would prefer that we don't make these things more complicated than we need.

I agree. I think I will first implements the intervalometer. Then add the timer, as exclusive, then mix both ;)

Quote:
First thoughts are to keep the settings for Timers and Intervalometer in new tabs in Configure and then provide check boxes to turn them on/off in the Shooting tab of Configure?

This is a solution. But do we need to save such settings? The other way is to open a special dialog from the shooting dialog, and enter values there. They will be saved as long as you don't close the app, as for title/gps/comment data when you activate the data file.

Quote:
Then we need some indicators and some feedback displayed in the Shooting window. Something to indicate that these functions are on and perhaps some indication of when last shot was taken or when next shot will be taken (like a countdown)?

Good idea.

Yes, I would like to save the settings.

I also feel it would be 'cleaner' and more consistent to use new tabbed 'windows' in Configure to enter settings - and to have check boxes to turn Timer and/or Intervalometer on/off in the Shooting tab of configure - than opening a 'special dialogue' from Shooting.

Timer and/or Intervalometer are not features most people will use very often so I feel it's better to have them slightly 'hidden away' in Configure?

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:51 pm 
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Ok Let's start this way.

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Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:37 am 
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Frederic

If you wish to keep it simple at first then the Timer settings tab in Configure might allow entry of just one instance of Start time.

Then the Intervalometer settings tab in Configure would allow entry of the interval duration and the number of repetitons desired - for example shoot a pano every 15 minutes and repeat 3 times.

Check boxes in the Shooting tab in Configure would allow user to turn on/off Timer and Intervalometer. User can choose to use Timer and/or Intervalometer.

If intervalometer used without Timer then shooting would start by normal manual Start in Shooting and would end after specfied number of repititions.

If Timer used alone then user opens Shooting mode (but does not manually Start the shoot) and one pano would be shot starting at Start time specified in Timer settings.

If Intervalometer used with Timer then user opens Shooting mode (but does not manually Start the shoot) and shooting would start at Start time specified in Timer and it would end after specfied number of repetitions.

An enhancement to this would be to allow multiple Start times to be specified in Timer tab in Configure. This would allow automatic shooting of panos at irregular intervals. Say one pano at 8am, one pano at 12 midday, another pano at 3pm, and another pano at 5pm. Used with the intervalometer you could then for example also do things like shooting 3 panos at 15 minute inetrvals starting at 8am, then another 3 panos at 15 minute intervals at 12 midday, and then another 3 panos at 15 minute intervals at 5pm.

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:59 am 
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Sounds good to me. But I wonder if the configure dialog is the right place to put settings... Why not just opening the corresponding dialogs when you select these features from the shooting dialog? I don't see any advantage to save such settings, as the start time will change in mostcases, and giving a new delay and number of shooting does not takes much time (and will also change very often).

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Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:31 am 
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fma38 wrote:
Sounds good to me. But I wonder if the configure dialog is the right place to put settings... Why not just opening the corresponding dialogs when you select these features from the shooting dialog? I don't see any advantage to save such settings, as the start time will change in mostcases, and giving a new delay and number of shooting does not takes much time (and will also change very often).

We already set and save settings in Configure that will change often - many of the items set via the Camera tab of Configure are also likely to be changed by the user before shooting each new pano scene. So it just seemed more consistent to me to define Timer and Intervalometer settings in Configure.

Consistency and predictability in a UI increases useability - if the user finds things where he expects them to be and they work as he expects (similar things in the same place and set in the similar way) then a system tends to be been perceived as more usable.

Maybe those items that are likely to change with each new pano scene that are currently set and saved in the Camera tab and other tabs in Configure should be taken out of Configure too? But I would prefer to keep the Shooting mode UI as uncluttered as possible, it is already quite 'busy'.

If we had more screen 'real estate' - and it is of course limited by the Nokia Tablet platform's physical display size and we must consider that platform the most desirable and important for most users - I can see that it would be quite nice to have access to settings currently accessed via the Configure tabbed dialogues directly from the Shooting mode window (perhaps from a series of icons representing current Configure tabs).

But it is your software ...

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:00 am 
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I agree we need consistenty in the interface. On the other hand, I already use such popup dialog when activating a flag, for the data file (title/gps/comment). As we need to add a switch for time/intervalometer, opening a dialog when you activate it does no mess up the GUI.

Moving some of the settings to the shooting dialog is also a good idea, but as you say, this *will* mess up the GUI, as we will need another button or so.

And in fact, even if parameters are out of the configuration dialog, they can be saved ;)

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Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:26 am 
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fma38 wrote:
I agree we need consistenty in the interface. On the other hand, I already use such popup dialog when activating a flag, for the data file (title/gps/comment).

And that has some usability issues on the Windows platform (and I guess on the Linux/PC platform) because now you can 'lose' that pop-up window - BTW why is it so small? - behind other Windows because it is not constrained within the main shooting window as it would be on a Nokia. One reason I'm not keen on more pop-ups of that kind. At least tabbed 'windows' within Configure stay put. We risk having layer upon layer of windows and pop-ups.

fma38 wrote:
As we need to add a switch for time/intervalometer, opening a dialog when you activate it does no mess up the GUI.

I proposed that the switches for the Timer and Intervalometer functions were check boxes within the Shooting tab of Configure. Yes, we'd need indicators in the Shooting mode UI if these functions were turned on (if off I envisaged that there would be no indicators displayed) but I did not envisage switches within the Shooting mode UI for these functions. They won't be used that often by most users so I didn't feel they deserved a permanent place on the Shooting mode UI.

fma38 wrote:
Moving some of the settings to the shooting dialog is also a good idea, but as you say, this *will* mess up the GUI, as we will need another button or so.

Yes. Shooting dialogue/window is already quite busy.

fma38 wrote:
And in fact, even if parameters are out of the configuration dialog, they can be saved ;)

OK. Noted.

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:10 am 
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fma38 wrote:
I already use such popup dialog when activating a flag, for the data file (title/gps/comment).

A separate issue relating to this pop-up.

When selecting Enable data file the first time (or after previously deselecting it) it pops-up, or if that selection is already in effect it pops-up when Shooting dialogue is opened.

However when shooting has finished for a pano the Shooting dialogue/window remains open and the user can select Start again and repeat the shoot - great feature - BUT if data file is already enabled it does not pop-up the title/GPS/comment box again - I think it should as presumably it will create a separate data file (or will this repeat shoot data be added to the previous shoot's data file)?

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:12 pm 
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How about this 'middle way'?

Have check boxes in the Shooting tab of Configure to enable user to turn on/off the Tiner and Intervalometer functions.

Have new tabs in Configure for Timer settings and Intervalometer settings.

If Timer/and/or Intervalometer checkboxes (in Shooting tab of configure) are enabled then we see indicator icon(s) in UI of Shooting dialogue/window.

Clicking on the Timer icon or Intervalometer icon opens (pops-up) Configure dialogue/window with relevant Tab selected.

Data file title/GPS/comment could be handled in similar manner with tab for this in Configure, so that instead of current pop-up dialogue selecting checkbox in Shooting UIO would open the tab in Configure.

Likewise you could provide access from the Shooting diologue/window to other tabs in Configure from icons - think of them as 'shortcuts' - in the Shooting dialogue/window?

I think you could find space for them (new icons) in the area beneath the shooting sequence messages bar wher the 'Manual shooting' and 'Data file enable' checkboxes are, and these checkbox titles could be abbreviated to say 'Manual' and 'Data file' to make more space.

This would provide consistency in how things work and enhance usabilityi I think.

Whether data is saved or not for various ettings is for you to decide.

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:59 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
fma38 wrote:
I already use such popup dialog when activating a flag, for the data file (title/gps/comment).

A separate issue relating to this pop-up.

When selecting Enable data file the first time (or after previously deselecting it) it pops-up, or if that selection is already in effect it pops-up when Shooting dialogue is opened.

However when shooting has finished for a pano the Shooting dialogue/window remains open and the user can select Start again and repeat the shoot - great feature - BUT if data file is already enabled it does not pop-up the title/GPS/comment box again - I think it should as presumably it will create a separate data file (or will this repeat shoot data be added to the previous shoot's data file)?

Yes, a new data file is created each time you start a shooting. If you want to modify the global info, you just need to deselect and reselect the data file checkbox. I have some ideas for the data file handling, but it will be for v2.

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Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:02 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
How about this 'middle way'?
[...]
Clicking on the Timer icon or Intervalometer icon opens (pops-up) Configure dialogue/window with relevant Tab selected.

Data file title/GPS/comment could be handled in similar manner with tab for this in Configure, so that instead of current pop-up dialogue selecting checkbox in Shooting UIO would open the tab in Configure.

Likewise you could provide access from the Shooting diologue/window to other tabs in Configure from icons - think of them as 'shortcuts' - in the Shooting dialogue/window?

Shortcut to configure dialog is really a great idea! I'll dig that way to see where it leads us...

Quote:
I think you could find space for them (new icons) in the area beneath the shooting sequence messages bar wher the 'Manual shooting' and 'Data file enable' checkboxes are, and these checkbox titles could be abbreviated to say 'Manual' and 'Data file' to make more space.

Yes, this is where I planed to put these new switches.

Quote:
Whether data is saved or not for various ettings is for you to decide.

If they are in the preference dialog, they have to be saved, for a logical point of view. Not a big deal.

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Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:11 pm 
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fma38 wrote:
Shortcut to configure dialog is really a great idea! I'll dig that way to see where it leads us...

I look forward to seeing the results of your excavations. I hope that's (day)light you are seeing at the end of the tunnel and not a train coming the other way.;)

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:27 pm 
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About the intervalometer, how do you want it to work? Does the interval value is the time to wait between 2 panos, or the time between each start? In this case, what if the shooting time is longer than the interval? Do we immediatly start the next pano? Should I report an warning? Other ideas?

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Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 7:48 pm 
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If you could show somewhere an estimate time for one panosequence I prefer the time between each start - this will allow regular interval schemes like every hour, every two hours ....

The shooter is responsible to set a value large enough not to get in conflict with duration of one complete shooting.
Nevertheless a warning will help idiots like me. :-)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:13 pm 
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This is not easy to estimate the shooting time, because the Merlin speed is not constant; depending of the angle to move, it does not accelerate at full speed... And there is also the pause problem...

So, what to do if the interval is shorter than the shooting time?

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Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:26 pm 
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fma38 wrote:
So, what to do if the interval is shorter than the shooting time?

Then it's not an interval mode, it's continous mode or repeating n times ...
Just start shooting again, and me the fool behind the Merlin will notice "Oops" :cool: ...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:47 pm 
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Ok!

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Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:18 pm 
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fma38 wrote:
This is not easy to estimate the shooting time, because the Merlin speed is not constant; depending of the angle to move, it does not accelerate at full speed... And there is also the pause problem...

So, what to do if the interval is shorter than the shooting time?

I would prefer to complete the pano then immediately start another. And so on up to the number of repetitions requested.

In other words always complete a pano that has been started. I would not want a pano to be truncated just to start another at the fixed interval set by the user, because that way you could end up with a mass of incomplete panos, so it does not fail safe.

Yes, the interval will 'drift'/increase from that set - but as Paul says it's up to the user to get it right if he/she wants fixed interval starts.

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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Sounds ok for me. One more question: what about the pause/cancel feature when using the timer (delayed start + intervalometer)? I think that cancel should cancel everything, but pause?

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Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100


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