[SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots  

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[SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by John2014 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 3:50 am

I've been having good luck with my 360 pano creations but I just tried to create one where there is a large mirror in the shot which is creating a double image of a window which is messing up my result.

I have not learned how to fix any stitches manually. Would manual fixing help me in the situation?

Could anyone point me in the right direction so I can start learning how to do stitch fixes manually, or give me a link to a tutorial which teaches manual stitch fixes.

Additional info:

I'm assuming it's the mirror.... but maybe it is something else.

Here is how the pano turned out. I shot 3 levels in the middle of the bathroom. 12 shots per level. I used a 14mm Rokinon on my Canon 60D. I have used this exact same method a number of times now. Even inside a very small closet and have gotten flawless results. This shot I thought would be easy.

Also, there is a shower/bathtub pics that are in the Group 1. But do not show in the pano. All 36 images are in the Group when
I hit detect.

Note: After I hit detect and the pano starts to build, it gets held up on "local optimization" for quite a while.

Thanks for any help!

Image

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Re: Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by mediavets » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:30 am

I think it's the wallpaper's repetitive pattern that's causing at least part of the problem.

And judging by this data it appears you are shooting too many images so will probably have excessive overlapping between images:
http://www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/samyang/

Excessive overlapping combined with the patterned wall covering man you probably have incorrect links between non-adjacent images that are resulting in a poor stitch.

In such a small room it will also be essential to have the camera/lens mounted at the NPP.

Use the Control Points Editor to remove superfluous links for a start.

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Re: Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by John2014 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:26 pm

Thanks for the reply,

Nice observation, I didn't even think about the wallpaper.

I'll try it again with less exposures. I always thought more was better, but if I can get good results with less I'll be very happy! And thanks for the link, that website is a good resource.

I think my NPP is aligned correctly.

I'll get to work and explore the control points editor.

Thanks for the help!

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Re: Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by John2014 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:09 pm

UPDATE: you could not have been more right about the wallpaper. It just took me an hour to go through and delete dozens and dozens of groups of control points from shots that were mismatched with other shots.

I read how to do that in a kolor tutorial but it is now telling me to:

"Open the "Steps" tab in the "Ctrl Pts" tab and check back the optimization steps 2, 3, 5 and enable the the bad points clean:"

.... but I'm having trouble finding this tab and am not really sure what to do here. I want to make sure I save the deletes so I don't have to do that again.

Will saving the project save the deletes I have made at this point? I have also added some control points too.

Also, how do I refresh the original messed up pano? Or generate a new one with the changes in the control point editor?

thanks :)

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Re: Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by mediavets » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:00 pm

John2014 wrote:UPDATE: you could not have been more right about the wallpaper.

Any scene with repetitive patterns can result in this sort of issue, but having excessive overlapping as well just makes things worse. 25-30% overlapping is sufficient, anymore can itself cause stitching problems.

It just took me an hour to go through and delete dozens and dozens of groups of control points from shots that were mismatched with other shots.

I would just have removed any link between non-adjacent images. Just select the link and then right-click and delete it. See screenshot below.

Will saving the project save the deletes I have made at this point? I have also added some control points too.

Yes.

Also, how do I refresh the original messed up pano?

thanks :)

Select Optimise.

..................

You've no idea how much easier it is to create spherical panos with a fisheye lens. So many fewer images and so many fewer seams between images.
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1-ptp2-cpe-remove-link.jpg

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by John2014 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:19 pm

Wow! Magic!

Now all the shots are where they should be. Any suggestions on how to proceed from here to finish it up? (photo below)

Is it just a question of adding more control points? Or do I need to also look more closely at some of the red control points in the shots that were placed correctly next to each other, which might need deleting (So far I have only deleted entire groups of control points that were placing non adjacent shots next to each other)

I did notice after my hour of deleting, that 2 adjacent shots no longer had any control points. I added 3 just so they had more than zero - but how many control points is ideal? Is it a case of the more the better? Is there a minimum number?

Thanks again for the help and for uploading the photo!

Re: A fisheye lens. I did buy a week ago a Rokinon 8mm, but I had poor results from it. The tops and bottoms were a jumbled up when the pano was rendered. So I went back to the 14mm which I had been having a lot of luck with (but a lot of work since I've been shooting 3-7 shot HDR as well) But I'll go back now and take a look at the control points in those to see if that was my problem.

Image

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Re:

by mediavets » Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:32 pm

John2014 wrote:Wow! Magic!

Now all the shots are where they should be. Any suggestions on how to proceed from here to finish it up? (photo below)

Can you show us a screenshot of the Control Points editor view showing the links.

Is it just a question of adding more control points? Or do I need to also look more closely at some of the red control points in the shots that were placed correctly next to each other, which might need deleting (So far I have only deleted entire groups of control points that were placing non adjacent shots next to each other)[/quote]
If you delete the links that will remove all related control points - in other words you don't need to find the CPs to delete.

I did notice after my hour of deleting, that 2 adjacent shots no longer had any control points. I added 3 just so they had more than zero - but how many control points is ideal? Is it a case of the more the better? Is there a minimum number?

Don't add individual CPs use the 'drag areas' method and let the program detect the CPs.

Try to have CPs only on major features like door and window frames and bathroom fixtures and fitting and as few as possible on that patterned wall covering.

Re: A fisheye lens. I did buy a week ago a Rokinon 8mm, but I had poor results from it. The tops and bottoms were a jumbled up when the pano was rendered.....But I'll go back now and take a look at the control points in those to see if that was my problem.

That lens is a fully manual lens and provides no data to the camera and EXIF so you may have to tell APG that it is a fisheye lens and check the crop circle in Image properties.

I guess you did that?

If you want to ZIP a sample image set from the 8mm fisheye and make it available to download I'll be happy to take a look and see why you may have had problems.

Perhaps you were not using the optimal shooting pattern again?

Likewise with that bathroom image set; that is probably one of the most challenging scenes you could possibly have chosen to shoot with a 14mm lens. It could be fun for me to see if I can stitch it.

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Re: Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by John2014 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:06 am

It would be great if you wanted to play with the files! What is the best way to upload them? Zipping and uploading files is not something have done. Is it basically the same as uploading a photo? I used dropshots for the photos. Is there a good site for uploading zip files?

I think this is what you wanted to see, let me know if it was something else:
Image
Image
Regarding the fisheye shot:
I redid one of the fisheye shots I did last week. Originally I had clicked "fisheye" when creating the pano, but I had not set the lens. You were right on again. Once I replaced the "50mm" default with 8mm for my sensor size it corrected all the jumble at the bottom and the top. There are a couple of small defects and I'll play around tomorrow morning to see if I can fix those - I also just remembered you said something about crop circles, I forgot to look at that. I'll do that in the morning too.

I thought that maybe that lens just would not work for panos... thanks for straightening me out and showing me it will! It would
be great to use that lens, since I can shoot only 6 shots instead of the 36 had I had been shooting with the 14mm (although it seems I should have been shooting only 24 - but still! much easier with 6) I have also realized that I think I can shoot an extra "zenith" shot for the top. I'll have to try that too.
Image

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Re: Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by mediavets » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:23 am

John2014 wrote:It would be great if you wanted to play with the files! What is the best way to upload them? Zipping and uploading files is not something have done. Is it basically the same as uploading a photo? I used dropshots for the photos. Is there a good site for uploading zip files?

You could use Dropbox - dropbox.com - I can use the download as ZIP option from there.

I think this is what you wanted to see, let me know if it was something else:

There are lots of hints here as to which links to investigate, those with very high values. Any value greater than about 6 may be incorrect.

Regarding the fisheye shot:
I redid one of the fisheye shots I did last week. Originally I had clicked "fisheye" when creating the pano, but I had not set the lens. You were right on again. Once I replaced the "50mm" default with 8mm for my sensor size it corrected all the jumble at the bottom and the top. There are a couple of small defects and I'll play around tomorrow morning to see if I can fix those - I also just remembered you said something about crop circles, I forgot to look at that. I'll do that in the morning too.

I thought that maybe that lens just would not work for panos... thanks for straightening me out and showing me it will! It would be great to use that lens, since I can shoot only 6 shots instead of the 36 had I had been shooting with the 14mm (although it seems I should have been shooting only 24 - but still! much easier with 6) I have also realized that I think I can shoot an extra "zenith" shot for the top. I'll have to try that too.

What brand and model of pano head do you have?

You might like to try shooting the main row with a small negative pitch (pointing down a little); and then shoot two or three zenith' shots not at +90 pitch but at perhaps +60-65 pitch with yaw separation of 180 or 120.

That way you minimize the 'hole' at the nadir, you also cover the zenith but with greater chance of getting good links between the 'zenith' shots and the main row than if using a single +90 zenith, especially when you are shooting interiors with plain ceilings.

Experiment and see what works best for you, sometimes the optimum pattern depends on the nature of the scene.

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Re: Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by John2014 » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:52 am

What brand and model of pano head do you have?


I'm using the Panosaurus. It was only 100 dollars but it seems to work. I've done a number of 360s that have come out flawless - just by doing everything auto. Actually all the ones I've done until the bathroom shot I used auto - shows how good the Autopano works!

I have uploaded the photos (36) to dropbox. I'm really curious to see what you can do with this mess! Good luck!

(let me know if the downloads don't work - it's my first attempt :) )

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7gtg5wjbgy33y54/Archive.zip

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Re: Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by mediavets » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:34 pm

John2014 wrote:
What brand and model of pano head do you have?


I'm using the Panosaurus. It was only 100 dollars but it seems to work. I've done a number of 360s that have come out flawless - just by doing everything auto. Actually all the ones I've done until the bathroom shot I used auto - shows how good the Autopano works!

I have uploaded the photos (36) to dropbox. I'm really curious to see what you can do with this mess! Good luck!

(let me know if the downloads don't work - it's my first attempt :) )

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7gtg5wjbgy33y54/Archive.zip


It took a lot of work with the Control Points Editor but the end result is quite good (I think).

It might have stitched better (before control point editing) if the images had been better exposed.

First I removed all links between non-adjacent images, then I looked at all links and improved if needs be, and added links between adjacent images if there were none created automatically.

Optimise after each stage.

Then test render and go back and look again at areas with stitch errors.

This image set is a great test case for learning to use the Control Points Editor. ;)
Attachments
1-ptp-bathroom.jpg
[Group 1]-bath wind closed-1_bath wind closed-36-36 images-03.jpg

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Re: Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by John2014 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:54 pm

You are a magician!

Thank you so much for doing that! My parents are selling this house (that I grew up in) and I thought Virtual Reality 360s would be the best way to remember the house the way I remembered it in the future - toilet seat up and everything!

I'm in a big rush to get it all done and my biggest concern has been that in the end the pictures I'm taking wouldn't be be able to be stitched together - so I've been stitching them now to check them - which has been a eating up a lot of the little time I have to get it done.

You have given me a lot more confidence that even the ones that don't stitch well on the auto settings will most likely be able to be fixed later - with a lot of time and effort - and a lot more to learn on my part :)

Once I have the time I'll come back and work on this bathroom pano again as a learning exercise. It will be my masters class!

I'm really impressed with what you did!

Thanks again! :)

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Re: [SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by John2014 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:14 am

UPDATE:

For anyone who had been following along with this thread and was curious about the lenses I was using:

I am now using the Rokinon 8mm fisheye most of the time. It is a lot sharper than I thought it was going to be. Although it's not as sharp as the Rokinon 14mm - which I find to be a surprisingly sharp lens. If I want a VR that is as sharp as possible, and I have the time, I still use the 14mm. But the 8mm is still pretty good - and since it's so fast to shoot with I can get more panos. Actually in a tight space it can be extremely sharp. But the main thing is it is so much faster to shoot with. I can do a full 360 with only 6 shots which covers almost everything but the zenith - where I shoot 4 shots. I think I might be able to get away with 3, or maybe even 2, but 4 is working fine for now.

I'm also shooting HDR and sometimes in low light with long exposures. With the 14mm I had been shooting 3 rows of 12 exposures. Which at times would take up to an hour to shoot. Thanks to mediavets suggestion I'm now shooting every 45 degrees with the 14mm - so only 8 shots per row - for the bottom 2. Then only 6 shots for the top - zenith row. Dropping down from 36 shots to 22 makes a big difference. And like I said, the 8mm only requires 10 shots (probably 9 would work too) which is much much faster.

Basically, if you are new to this like I am and learning, more shots it defiantly not better.

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Re: [SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by mediavets » Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:47 am

John2014 wrote:UPDATE:

For anyone who had been following along with this thread and was curious about the lenses I was using:

I am now using the Rokinon 8mm fisheye most of the time. It is a lot sharper than I thought it was going to be. Although it's not as sharp as the Rokinon 14mm - which I find to be a surprisingly sharp lens. If I want a VR that is as sharp as possible, and I have the time, I still use the 14mm. But the 8mm is still pretty good - and since it's so fast to shoot with I can get more panos. Actually in a tight space it can be extremely sharp..


How are you setting the focus of the fisheye?

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Re: [SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by klausesser » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:09 pm

John2014 wrote:UPDATE:

For anyone who had been following along with this thread and was curious about the lenses I was using:

I am now using the Rokinon 8mm fisheye most of the time. It is a lot sharper than I thought it was going to be. Although it's not as sharp as the Rokinon 14mm - which I find to be a surprisingly sharp lens. If I want a VR that is as sharp as possible, and I have the time, I still use the 14mm. But the 8mm is still pretty good - and since it's so fast to shoot with I can get more panos. Actually in a tight space it can be extremely sharp. But the main thing is it is so much faster to shoot with. I can do a full 360 with only 6 shots which covers almost everything but the zenith - where I shoot 4 shots. I think I might be able to get away with 3, or maybe even 2, but 4 is working fine for now.

I'm also shooting HDR and sometimes in low light with long exposures. With the 14mm I had been shooting 3 rows of 12 exposures. Which at times would take up to an hour to shoot. Thanks to mediavets suggestion I'm now shooting every 45 degrees with the 14mm - so only 8 shots per row - for the bottom 2. Then only 6 shots for the top - zenith row. Dropping down from 36 shots to 22 makes a big difference. And like I said, the 8mm only requires 10 shots (probably 9 would work too) which is much much faster.

Basically, if you are new to this like I am and learning, more shots it defiantly not better.


Hey John!

For doing the thing in a real good way: use a GOOD fisheye on a GOOD camera.

Preferably use a fulframe camera and a 15mm Canon- or the 16mm Nikon fisheye. You need 6 shots for a whoile sphere of excellent quality,
very high sharpness and solution.
Using my Canon 5D2with the 15mm fisheye i get about 15000x7500px=112MPx and using my D800 and the 16mm fisheye i get 197MPx. In bothz cases it takes 6 shots including Zenith. 5 shots @-12° plus 1 shot @ +90°. That´s all.

See some examples here:
http://360impressions.de/Wohnung/
http://360impressions.de/ElGreco
http://360impressions.de/ZuerichBar.html

All three examples i did with the 5D2/15mm fishye. 5 shots @-12° plus Zenith @+90. I don´t shoot Nadirs - because the Nadir-holes my heads provide
are so small that they very easily can be cloned in Photoshop in minutes.

This way i can shoot a scene in about 3 minutes.

best, Klaus

PS:

i forgot to mention that a big advantage in using fisheyes is an extremely wide DOF. Using f:8 you get everything sharp from (depending on the lens) about 50cm to infinity.

PS2:

Avoid shooting so much pictures. Don´t use more than 20 - 25% overlap.

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Re: [SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by mediavets » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:28 pm

klausesser wrote:Avoid shooting so much pictures. Don´t use more than 20 - 25% overlap.

The conventional pattern when shooting with a fullframe fiisheye is 6-around in the main row, not 5.

AFAIK the Nodal Ninja R-D16 rotator does not offer 5-around (yaw separations of 72 degrees) anyway.

I guess it is your Panoneed robotic head that calculates 5-around for the main row?

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Re: [SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by klausesser » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:38 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:Avoid shooting so much pictures. Don´t use more than 20 - 25% overlap.

The conventional pattern when shooting with a fullframe fiisheye is 6-around in the main row, not 5.

AFAIK the Nodal Ninja R-D16 rotator does not offer 5-around (yaw separations of 72 degrees) anyway.

I guess it is your Panoneed robotic head that calculates 5-around for the main row?


I shoot 5 @-12° plus Zenith @ +90° as said. I do it using my manual modified Manfrotto SPH as well as when i use my Panoneed head.

That´s with the 5D2/15mm fe as well as with the D800/16mm fe.

Overlap is 20%.

best, Klaus

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Re: [SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by mediavets » Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:02 pm

klausesser wrote:I shoot 5 @-12° plus Zenith @ +90° as said. I do it using my manual modified Manfrotto SPH as well as when i use my Panoneed head.

That´s with the 5D2/15mm fe as well as with the D800/16mm fe.

Overlap is 20%.

best, Klaus

Thats' fine I'm just reporting that 5-around with a NN R-D16 is not an option.

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Re: [SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by klausesser » Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:03 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:I shoot 5 @-12° plus Zenith @ +90° as said. I do it using my manual modified Manfrotto SPH as well as when i use my Panoneed head.

That´s with the 5D2/15mm fe as well as with the D800/16mm fe.

Overlap is 20%.

best, Klaus



Thats' fine I'm just reporting that 5-around with a NN R-D16 is not an option.


Isn´t the clickstop-ring interchangable?

best, Klaus

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Re: [SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by mediavets » Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:39 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:I shoot 5 @-12° plus Zenith @ +90° as said. I do it using my manual modified Manfrotto SPH as well as when i use my Panoneed head.

That´s with the 5D2/15mm fe as well as with the D800/16mm fe.

Overlap is 20%.

best, Klaus



Thats' fine I'm just reporting that 5-around with a NN R-D16 is not an option.


Isn´t the clickstop-ring interchangable?

best, Klaus


It is in the basic rotator but not with the R-D16 or any of the other R-Dx series.

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Re: [SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by John2014 » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:06 pm

Sorry, I posted the update but didn't check to see if anyone had replied to it until now! =(

For focus on the fisheye I zoom in on the LCD screen and then focus. But I also use charts to determine the depth of field that I need. But before I actual start shooting I do some test shots then put them on my main computer to check focus on near and far objects.

I will probably be buying a Nikon D800 soon for overall photography - I do a lot of wide angle stuff and I've heard good things about the 14-24mm 2.8. But I"ll take a look at the 16mm for panos.

Do you find that the for 360 panos that either the Canon or the Nikon fisheye is a better system?

And very nice pano examples! They do look sharp! What is the name of the head you use to get those nadir shots without a tripod?

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Re: [SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by mediavets » Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:32 pm

John2014 wrote:For focus on the fisheye I zoom in on the LCD screen and then focus. But I also use charts to determine the depth of field that I need. But before I actual start shooting I do some test shots then put them on my main computer to check focus on near and far objects.



All fisheye lenses have massive depth of field. As fr as I know DOF charts normally apply only to rectilinear lenses.

When using a fisheye lens for shooting panos it is normally suggested that you do test shots focusing on something approx. 1 metre from the camera. When you get a sharp focus at this distance tape the focus ring and leave it alone for all pano shooting.

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Re: [SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by klausesser » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:51 pm

John2014 wrote:Do you find that the for 360 panos that either the Canon or the Nikon fisheye is a better system?
And very nice pano examples! They do look sharp! What is the name of the head you use to get those nadir shots without a tripod?


The focal length depends on the resolution you want - or need - to achieve.

Basically 15mm Canon or 16mm Nikon fisheyes are ideal. They give you about 112mpx on a 5D2 and about 179mpx on a D800
with 6 shots. 5 shots @-12° and one Zenith @90°.

I used a Panoneed head (www.panoneed.com). I don´t shoot Nadirs. The head provides a very small Nadir-hole, which can easily get
reoutched in Photoshop by using the down cubeface.

Klaus

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Re: [SOLVED] Dealing with mirrors in pano shots

by John2014 » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:24 pm

A dedicated taped (for focus) lens is a great idea. Actually - if one can afford it - a dedicated body attached to a pano head would be great too.

I took a look at the Panoneed and it looks amazing! Are you doing something in photoshop to get rid of the tripod legs?

It's very interesting to see those "floating" panos!


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