Freedom360 -360 Heros

[Destiny]

Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Destiny » Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:58 am

Hey.. As far as I can work it all out.. The Freedom360 rig was the first of its kind using the Heros cameras made by GoPro to create a full sphere rig setup.. So.. who makes the blue rig, is this 360Heros and is this a GoPro company..??? They are not on the GoPro website … Checking out the Kolor shop, I am confused as to why the blue rig cost more than the Freedom360, when to me it looks better made, but I have never had one in my hand to test this assumption.. Now there is a 3D version of the blue rig and can’t help feeling that it’s a bit too much for so many things to go wrong.. Wear and tear of the holding flaps seems to be a bit iffy to me for long term use, where as the Freedom360 rig looks to me like it’s a lot more secure where screws are holding the cameras in place..

So, what is the story of the blue rig setup… why does it cost more…. Is this made by a 3rd mob, 360Heros.. I can see the 3D version and oh man.. eeeks.. So many cameras… surly the entire thing would wiggle and jiggle about if moved.. I am assuming that its a GoPro owned rig since its name is the same as their cameras..

Destiny..

Attachments

[mediavets]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by mediavets » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:14 am

360heros:
http://www.360heros.com/

Freedom360:
http://freedom360.us/

[Joergen Geerds]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Joergen Geerds » Mon Feb 10, 2014 5:15 am

Destiny,
we here at F360 are proud of our build-quality, and have been a long standing partner and friend of Kolor, ever since we had developed the first 360Rig, and Kolor developed AVP for it. We are a small, independent company, based in NYC, with a long background in panoramic photography. Usability, safety, professionalism and convenience come first, which is why we put so much emphasis on small details that are used by pro-users across the globe, including airpano and IM... it is a workhorse of the 360 industry by now. The F360 also comes with a range of accessories, including the all-important lens caps and a protective bag, made by ThinkTank (probably the best lens pouch maker in the world), and we feel like we are giving the users a good value, including tons of support, for their money.

Joergen Geerds
Freedom360.us

[Destiny]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Destiny » Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:33 am

Hi Joergen...

Thanks for that insight.. As I said, we have never held either the Freedom360 or the 360 Heros in our hands, however, I feel images can still tell a lot.. To me your Freedom360 looks beautifully made and has very secure camera mounts.. I think the colour also looks more professional so to me it has everything going for it and on top of that its cheaper..

Well, for my money.. if I had any... I would buy the Freedom360 rig for its obvious quality and stylish good looks.. Others might like the 360 Heros better.. Are their any retailer in Australia where we can check the rig out..

Destiny..

[asiavr]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by asiavr » Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:31 pm

i owe one of the 360hero rig and i can tell you their support is suck.
i suggest you go for freedom rig. i bought my hero rig winter last year and i still struggled to make my first video pano.

Hey.. As far as I can work it all out.. The Freedom360 rig was the first of its kind using the Heros cameras made by GoPro to create a full sphere rig setup.. So.. who makes the blue rig, is this 360Heros and is this a GoPro company..??? They are not on the GoPro website … Checking out the Kolor shop, I am confused as to why the blue rig cost more than the Freedom360, when to me it looks better made, but I have never had one in my hand to test this assumption.. Now there is a 3D version of the blue rig and can’t help feeling that it’s a bit too much for so many things to go wrong.. Wear and tear of the holding flaps seems to be a bit iffy to me for long term use, where as the Freedom360 rig looks to me like it’s a lot more secure where screws are holding the cameras in place..

So, what is the story of the blue rig setup… why does it cost more…. Is this made by a 3rd mob, 360Heros.. I can see the 3D version and oh man.. eeeks.. So many cameras… surly the entire thing would wiggle and jiggle about if moved.. I am assuming that its a GoPro owned rig since its name is the same as their cameras..

Destiny..

[klausesser]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by klausesser » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:28 pm

i owe one of the 360hero rig and i can tell you their support is suck.

I was told different opinions.

i suggest you go for freedom rig. i bought my hero rig winter last year and i still struggled to make my first video pano.

Sure it´s due to the rig?

I guess both companies do the same thing - just using different aproaches of fixing the cameras. In the end there is only ONE physical
way to align them all.
No rocket-science - but a proper layout and mechanical precision.

Klaus

[Twan]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Twan » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:56 pm

We own a 360hero for a couple of months.
It simply works great.
The first time you need to convince yourself that the plastic will not break.
We use it with 7 Hero3+, the stability is great.
Let me know if you need a picture of the complete setup.

Twan

[Destiny]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Destiny » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:56 pm

Hi... I would like to see the join of the two ends of pano..

Destiny...

[asiavr]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by asiavr » Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:16 am

yes. i would like to see the images.

i hv one that can mount 6 hero 3+ silver.

regards

We own a 360hero for a couple of months.
It simply works great.
The first time you need to convince yourself that the plastic will not break.
We use it with 7 Hero3+, the stability is great.
Let me know if you need a picture of the complete setup.

Twan

[Twan]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Twan » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:32 pm

Hi asiavr,

Sorry for the late reaction.
I attached two pictures. Let me know if you need more info.

Regards,

Twan

Attachments

[Destiny]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Destiny » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:21 am

Don't mean images of your hardware, but rather a pano to see how the end blend... but also the stitching quality....

Destiny..

[gabrielefx]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by gabrielefx » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:45 am

Hi,
I would like to buy this type of rig to do one shot panoramas.
The questions are:
is it possible to work with manual controls with the GoPros?
the noise quality is acceptable in low light condition?
the stitching process is automatic with Autopano or it needs a lot of work?

I would like to see some pano examples of interior spaces done with this rig and Autopano.

regards

[Twan]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Twan » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:21 am

Ahh, see what you mean
Attached a link to an experimental view.
http://360visuals.nl/PanoTours/toren/Romer%20Toren.html

Please keep in mind that I'am really new to this, so suggestions or observations are welcome.

Twan

[Destiny]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Destiny » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:55 am

Thats a good example, thanks for sharing.. The thing I have noticed is the quality of the pano image is really quite good, I really love the cameras... However, I have also noticed that the stitching is not as good as I would like to see using either of these rigs.. I would love to have a rig to test but sadly this will not be happening anytime soon... These errors are as I have seen in most of the panos sent to me shot using a Freedom360 or a 360 Heros.. I now have to question the accuracy of these rigs.. This is much more noticeable when capturing an indoor pano.. The indoor pano I was sent using the Freedom360 was really quite disappointing.. Very noticeable errors but the image quality was really nice, but that comes down to the cameras..

Destiny..

Attachments

[klausesser]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by klausesser » Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:41 pm

Ahh, see what you mean
Attached a link to an experimental view.
http://360visuals.nl/PanoTours/toren/Romer%20Toren.html

Please keep in mind that I'am really new to this, so suggestions or observations are welcome.

Twan

Hi Twan!

1) I guess nobody would buy a rig and cameras for about 4000.-€ for shooting "classical" indoor panoramas for real estate or so.
Or for shooting sujets like you showed. That´s definitely a thing for "usual" panoramashooting.
2) I also guess that you will improve your stitching-precision by digging deeper into shooting and stitching - you said you´re new to this.
3) I saw one-shot spherical panos of real good quality done with both kinds of rigs: Freedom and Hero.
4) The need for using ONE shot is actuality, very crowded situations and so on. In this situations actuality counts higher than
- minor - stitch errors.
5) But the REAL use for these rigs is - no surprise - to shoot interactive movies.

In the end it depends on the quality of the cameras - which becomes more and more acceptable also for shooting still images -
and of course it´s up to the skills of the user. That´s nothing which comes fast but needs quite a time and training.

After all it´s clear that the closer the distances it becomes more challenging to have an optimal alignment. The rig you showed isn´t an actual version is it?

best, Klaus

[gabrielefx]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by gabrielefx » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:20 am

very good example.
I see a lot of stitching issues but I think that Autopano can correct them.
Probably with the next gen Gopro and an aluminum rig with precision screws to align the lenses we will achieve better results.

[Destiny]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Destiny » Sun Mar 23, 2014 9:41 am

Yes... A well made aluminium precision rig sounds good, but $$... My understanding was the Freedom 360 was much better made and more stable rig, so less prone to movement... My husband said probably possible with a cast and 4 axis CNC... We saw one doing its thing once... Just amazing.. It changed its tooling on the run...

So, what software did Twan use to stitch this example pano.. I like this example very much since it shows closeup and distance.. The closeup has a lot of very interesting features like metal and tiles.. The other examples I have seen were outside and inside a hotel.. Lots of tiles.. Same issues, poor stitching and blending at the ends.. Which I did not expect..

What I would like are the raw images to test myself the stitching using APG.. I am guessing that there are no fine adjustments in the rig, so its just a matter or installing them into the rig and securing them... Its for this reason why I am sceptical about the 360 Heros.. The Freedon360 pano images I saw were not as bad as the example Twan provided, probably due to a more solid construction...

Destiny..

[klausesser]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by klausesser » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:08 pm

Yes... A well made aluminium precision rig sounds good, but $$... My understanding was the Freedom 360 was much better made and more stable rig, so less prone to movement... My husband said probably possible with a cast and 4 axis CNC... We saw one doing its thing once... Just amazing.. It changed its tooling on the run...

So, what software did Twan use to stitch this example pano.. I like this example very much since it shows closeup and distance.. The closeup has a lot of very interesting features like metal and tiles.. The other examples I have seen were outside and inside a hotel.. Lots of tiles.. Same issues, poor stitching and blending at the ends.. Which I did not expect..

What I would like are the raw images to test myself the stitching using APG.. I am guessing that there are no fine adjustments in the rig, so its just a matter or installing them into the rig and securing them... Its for this reason why I am sceptical about the 360 Heros.. The Freedon360 pano images I saw were not as bad as the example Twan provided, probably due to a more solid construction...

Destiny..

probably due to more experienced users - Twan stated to be new to this. Maybe his Hero-Rig was for another type of GoPro - they ran minor changes the of focal length several times. Shooting far distances that´s not of a big issue - but shooting close distances AND far distances in one shot it definitely rises issues when the rig is tailored to the previous model. I guess the diferences in focal lengths can be compensated in the stitcher´s editor - but as said: Twan`s new to that.

Good exercise for him to edit the errors . . .

Klaus

[Joergen Geerds]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Joergen Geerds » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:07 am

Destiny: The Freedom360 mount is a precision-printed part, and each one is hand-tuned for optimal performance and fit. There is no movement between the cameras, even under more extreme scenarios, like Henry Steart's recent F1 projects (http://jalopnik.com/play-with-this-stre ... 1525793650). Producing the same mount from alu, cnc-machined, will not change the slightest bit in "performance" (the only thing that will suffer greatly is the WiFi performance).
The stitching errors that we all see are due to the inherent parallax error in all multi-cam systems (with the exception of mirror systems). There is only so much adjustment APG can to to compensate for parallax errors. A good start is being OCD about the control points: you can not have too many, 100-300 per pair is not bad, and switching from the standard optimizer to the advanced optimizer settings, enabling lens shift for each camera, and possibly view point for select tiles, helps reigning in some of the stitching errors. perfect stitching is only possible for infinity, and everything closer than 3m needs special attention, both in regards to control points as well as optimizing. Orienting the rig in a way to minimize the parallax errors comes with rigging experience.

[Destiny]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Destiny » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:17 am

Hi Jeorgen...

Printed... thats interesting.. So are they ABS plastic parts??.. I really love your innovative approach in that..

I was hoping you would say it was operator error, which is what I imagined it to be.. Your systems, as I have stated above is a more solid construction. For this reason I would expect it to be almost perfect.. I am to be honest very surprised to hear that its the rig.. Are you able to send me some images to test the stitching.. APG 3.0.8 was not great at all.. I had so many issues with that version. 2.6 was actually better and apparently a few versions ago even better.. V3.5 is without a doubt heaps and heaps better, the best yet. Kolor put in a lot of effort so APG 3.5 would work "Out Of The Box" and in many ways it does.. My stitching is now just about perfect... I would like to run some test of my own if you do not mind..

Destiny..

[Twan]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Twan » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:26 pm

Yes... A well made aluminium precision rig sounds good, but $$... My understanding was the Freedom 360 was much better made and more stable rig, so less prone to movement... My husband said probably possible with a cast and 4 axis CNC... We saw one doing its thing once... Just amazing.. It changed its tooling on the run...

So, what software did Twan use to stitch this example pano.. I like this example very much since it shows closeup and distance.. The closeup has a lot of very interesting features like metal and tiles.. The other examples I have seen were outside and inside a hotel.. Lots of tiles.. Same issues, poor stitching and blending at the ends.. Which I did not expect..

What I would like are the raw images to test myself the stitching using APG.. I am guessing that there are no fine adjustments in the rig, so its just a matter or installing them into the rig and securing them... Its for this reason why I am sceptical about the 360 Heros.. The Freedon360 pano images I saw were not as bad as the example Twan provided, probably due to a more solid construction...

Destiny..

probably due to more experienced users - Twan stated to be new to this. Maybe his Hero-Rig was for another type of GoPro - they ran minor changes the of focal length several times. Shooting far distances that´s not of a big issue - but shooting close distances AND far distances in one shot it definitely rises issues when the rig is tailored to the previous model. I guess the diferences in focal lengths can be compensated in the stitcher´s editor - but as said: Twan`s new to that.

Good exercise for him to edit the errors . . .

Klaus

Hi Klaus,

We use the Hero H3Pro7 together with Hero 3+ Black Edition Camera's.
All were bought last january and should work flawless together .

I have spent quite a few hours reading the wikipages, the blogs and exploring the software (mainly the CP editor).
The stitching problem as shown in the previous examples keep popping up in almost every picture.
To figure out if the problem is in the cameras, the rig or the software I tried PTGui.
PTGui created perfectly stitched pictures with out touching the cp-editor.

I have worked the picture sin APG 3.0.8 and 3.5.0 beta 3, both the 64bits version.
Within the CP editor I tried "Auto Control Points"as well as adding manual control points.
At this point I am rather clueless as to the next step I should take to figure out what I am missing.

Maybe one of you can give me a hint?

Destiny, If you still need the raw images just let me know.

Twan

[Destiny]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Destiny » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:41 pm

Yes Twan, I would like to test out some raw images... I would have tested PTGui too.. That software is just amazing, way better than APG 3.0.8. so its no surprise to read you managed a good result. But APG 3.5 is way different so I would expect much better results..

To be honest, I would expect some issues using the 360 Heros since it seems to be to be open to more movement but the Freedom360 cameras have been set into a rig that has been precision-printed so I would have thought it would be perfect.. If its not I would suggest that the rig needs a resign. I really cannot accept that it does not stitch perfectly.. There must be more too it.. I know for a fact that the shooting pattern make a huge difference..

Please send images captured using your 360 Heros to dps@westnet.com.au using a drop box or web transfer.. I would like to test both rig sets so if Joergen can send me some images from the Freedom360 I can run a comparison..

Destiny..

[Destiny]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Destiny » Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:40 am

Emm... I am going to be really suborn and did my high heals in here.. I accept Joergen's analysis of the fact that the closer the subject is the more visible the stitching errors might be apparent.. That makes sense but in reality the errors are still there... I downloaded a set of images from the Freedom360 site and was blown away by the shear number of bad control points. Using my VR Drive they are all in the green, less then 3 RMS... With XML in the mid 2's or less..

I went into the editor and used a method explained to me my Alexandre J.. I am not a designer but I have a good understanding of what it should be... I will make a bold statement and suggest the design is wrong... in both units, but it might not be that.. it might be the lens on the Go Pro camera.. What ever it is, something is not right.. Its been suggested that "some errors are impossible to remove, and one just has to deal with their existence." Sorry, I do not accept that.. APG now works 99% of the time "Out Of The Box", I feel that since APG 3.5 is the best version yet, then the image processed using a Freedom360 should be able to be processed "Out Of The Box".

Suggestions...
APG needs to facilitate the shooting pattern and images of a Feedom360 better
or
The design of the Freedom360 needs tweaking..
or
The lens of the GoPro is not appropriate..

I think a return back to a blank drawing board..

Real shame there are no any other options to use other cameras.. but.. ... if the parts of the Freedom360 are printed, then perhaps a test is in order.. make a bigger version that accommodates a D90 with a 10.5...

Destiny....

PS... But I do not think that would be possible since the cameras would occupy the same space...

[Destiny]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Destiny » Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:00 pm

Ok.. I understand a bit more about the NPP issues so these rigs are totally reliant on smart software to get the job done.. I tested the demo pano from Freedom360 and found PTGui to do a very good job.. But you have to use a template... I need to work out how templates work with PTGui.. It seems to allow for a mix of orientations of images.. Without the template its not possible to stitch the panos since one image needs a different orientation to portrait..

I used the Freedom360 file for APG too, but the results are not good.. I do not know why... I need to send kolor the results.. Perhaps support was not on the 'to do list'...

After checking many of the one shot rigs and cameras out, for me the Freedom360 seems to be the way to go, even though it cost a lot. There are much better quality options but they come at a really high price. Its not so much the rig but the cameras thats makes the F360 expensive. Without a doubt the GoPro camera is a nice unique camera. There are a few one shot cameras but they are really designed for social media..

The Freedom360 Explorer is a really nice rig which can house the cameras in water proof containers so it can go in rugged places and under water... If I had the money to spend on a rig, this would be the one I would buy since I would have more use for underwater video and I like the metal rig frame... Since these rigs are really meant for 360 video, you do not notice the mismatch so much, however if they are used for a one shot pano you will need to expect that at close range you may experience stitching issues.. I am sure this can be improved on with Papywizard code but I haven't been successful yet...

The only rig that allows for bracketed shots is the agno's rig Andrew told me about.. Its really quite excellent.. the results are nice to.. Using Papywizard made the stitching almost perfect in APG 3.5..

The benefits in this rig is you can use the cameras for a lot more situations.. It will however cost more than the two rigs titled in this thread... This rig however is not meant for 360 video... So if a one shot pano is your need, perhaps this is the one for you.. Not sure how all the cameras link so that needs to be considered..

http://www.agnos.com/prodotti.htm?http: ... 0005-P0509

Destiny...

[Destiny]

Re: Freedom360 -360 Heros

by Destiny » Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:26 am

We have seen aerial mounted rigs but how about under the water.. Love it...

http://www.tuvie.com/espy-360-rov-under ... safer-way/

http://vimeo.com/80267809

Destiny..