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 Post subject: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:09 pm 
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Hello everyone,

I've tried various pano stitching software the last days, and i like autopano so far :)

I have tried making in-door panos with both a fisheye walimex 8mm and canon 18-55mm with my canon EOS 600D. both work pretty good on my first impression. however, when i render the full scale pano and check it carefully, i see errors like this all over the image:

http://imgur.com/VDRqPPC

the pano editor tells me that the control points are not perfect, but setting controlpoints manually is a huge amount of work to do, especially when doing panos with the 18mm photos, where i have 60 pics in total. is there any fine-tuning i need to do in the settings?

some suggestions would be much appreciated :)
thanks!
felix


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:53 pm 
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felix wrote:
Hello everyone,

I've tried various pano stitching software the last days, and i like autopano so far :)

I have tried making in-door panos with both a fisheye walimex 8mm and canon 18-55mm with my canon EOS 600D. both work pretty good on my first impression. however, when i render the full scale pano and check it carefully, i see errors like this all over the image:

http://imgur.com/VDRqPPC

the pano editor tells me that the control points are not perfect, but setting controlpoints manually is a huge amount of work to do, especially when doing panos with the 18mm photos, where i have 60 pics in total. is there any fine-tuning i need to do in the settings?

some suggestions would be much appreciated :)
thanks!
felix


It seems like your camera is not rotating around the no-parallax-point, called nodal point by some. APP and APG can solve some of this, but not too much.

Can you upload the originals in a zipfile here? Or in wetransfer or dropbox.com (share me at hans@alsofjeerbent.nl)?
It will help a lot if we can try to stitch ourself to see if the settings we use work better.

_________________
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:18 pm 
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Location: Isleham, Cambridgeshire, UK.
felix wrote:
Hello everyone,

I've tried various pano stitching software the last days, and i like autopano so far :)

I have tried making in-door panos with both a fisheye walimex 8mm and canon 18-55mm with my canon EOS 600D. both work pretty good on my first impression. however, when i render the full scale pano and check it carefully, i see errors like this all over the image:

http://imgur.com/VDRqPPC

the pano editor tells me that the control points are not perfect, but setting controlpoints manually is a huge amount of work to do, especially when doing panos with the 18mm photos, where i have 60 pics in total. is there any fine-tuning i need to do in the settings?

some suggestions would be much appreciated :)
thanks!
felix


Do you have a proper pano head?

If so, what make and model?


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:35 pm 
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hi and thats for the fast reply!

i know the basics regarding the nodal point, since ive watched some pano basics tutorials already. i didnt expect that taking pano pics from a no-nodal point would result in these stiching errors. all i have is a basic camera tripod, thats it. the problem is that my budget is very limited at the moment, since i just bought my new EOS 400D a few weeks ago. im surprised that all these nodal point adaptors are so expensive (didnt find anything below 200€, which is ridicilous for a piece of metal/plastic).

right now i dont know what i should do - buy my friend's fisheye lens (or make everything on 18mm, which seems to work aswell) - buy a nodal point adaptor - or simply a hire a company to make the panos for me (which would obviously be the last and most expensive option for me)

since the hotel room on my 18mm lens is quite a lot to upload (60 pics), here's the hotel lounge, made with the 8mm fisheye https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ijedodrsopd6skm/lNMNOb6fCn (no need to put a lot of work into that, these are just quick test shots)

so overall, i am considering buying a nodal point adaptor (if there's one for a reasonable price) and doing everything with my 18-55mm lens. would that be a good idea?

thanks a lot for the support!


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:54 pm 
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felix wrote:
hi and thats for the fast reply!

i know the basics regarding the nodal point, since ive watched some pano basics tutorials already. i didnt expect that taking pano pics from a no-nodal point would result in these stiching errors. all i have is a basic camera tripod, thats it. the problem is that my budget is very limited at the moment, since i just bought my new EOS 400D a few weeks ago. im surprised that all these nodal point adaptors are so expensive (didnt find anything below 200€, which is ridicilous for a piece of metal/plastic).

right now i dont know what i should do - buy my friend's fisheye lens (or make everything on 18mm, which seems to work aswell) - buy a nodal point adaptor - or simply a hire a company to make the panos for me (which would obviously be the last and most expensive option for me)

since the hotel room on my 18mm lens is quite a lot to upload (60 pics), here's the hotel lounge, made with the 8mm fisheye https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ijedodrsopd6skm/lNMNOb6fCn (no need to put a lot of work into that, these are just quick test shots)

so overall, i am considering buying a nodal point adaptor (if there's one for a reasonable price) and doing everything with my 18-55mm lens. would that be a good idea?

thanks a lot for the support!

Are you shooting panos as a hobby or as a business?

You have very little chance of getting an accurate stitch if shooting indoors without a proper pano head.

Unless you want hi-res panos I would opt to get the fisheye lens if it is a good quality brand/model.

What brand and model is this fisheye lens?

If you are handy you could try and make your own pano head in the first instance. You will find lots of DIY designs on the Net.

This is one of the least expensive and most simple:
http://www.peterloud.co.uk/nodalsamurai/


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:59 am 
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well i'd say half hobby and half business. my parents own a small hotel which i am doing all media stuff such as website, photo, video etc for. since i would have to purchase all the pano equipment at once (stitching software, online tour creator, panohead and possibly fisheye lens), i need to keep the costs as low as possible...

my friend has a walimex pro 8mm fisheye lens which he offers to sell. however, i'd prefer to do everything on my standard canon 18-55 (which seems to be possible) i dont really want to buy a fisheye lens, since all im gonna be using it for would be max. 10 panos and thats it.

well, i guess i'll take a look at the DIY tutorials next weekend and see how it works out :)

thanks a lot for the nice support, im gonna report how it went :)
felix


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:38 am 
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Don't see why you can't use one of these - just screw straight onto your tripod & let you move the camera back and forward.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-way-Macro-S ... 51a341a08a

The closer you are to your subject the more important to get the lens set up correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:38 am 
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a a gruntpuddock wrote:
Don't see why you can't use one of these - just screw straight onto your tripod & let you move the camera back and forward.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-way-Macro-S ... 51a341a08a

The closer you are to your subject the more important to get the lens set up correctly.


That Walimex fisheye is the same as the Samyang and will require (typically) zenith+6-around+nadir.


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:02 am 
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mediavets wrote:
a a gruntpuddock wrote:
Don't see why you can't use one of these - just screw straight onto your tripod & let you move the camera back and forward.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-way-Macro-S ... 51a341a08a

The closer you are to your subject the more important to get the lens set up correctly.


That Walimex fisheye is the same as the Samyang and will require (typically) zenith+6-around+nadir.



Alright so these two posts confuse me :)

since i would prefer not to buy the fisheye, im focusing on the 18-55mm lens which i already own. i've also found another tutorial here which seems to be quite easy to make. according to the lens database i've found, my EOS 600D with 18mm lens would result in 86mm distance from the tripod screw to the entrance pupil.

is it worth to put some work into a selfmade panohead like this, or is such a simple rail like you suggested just enough for my needs? i guess i'd have to measure the nodal point distance over and over again when using the simple rail, while my panohead would always have the optimized alignment everytime i set up my tripod.

again, thanks for the great support!
felix


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:37 am 
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felix wrote:
mediavets wrote:
a a gruntpuddock wrote:
Don't see why you can't use one of these - just screw straight onto your tripod & let you move the camera back and forward.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-way-Macro-S ... 51a341a08a

The closer you are to your subject the more important to get the lens set up correctly.


That Walimex fisheye is the same as the Samyang and will require (typically) zenith+6-around+nadir.



Alright so these two posts confuse me :)

since i would prefer not to buy the fisheye, im focusing on the 18-55mm lens which i already own. i've also found another tutorial here which seems to be quite easy to make. according to the lens database i've found, my EOS 600D with 18mm lens would result in 86mm distance from the tripod screw to the entrance pupil.

is it worth to put some work into a selfmade panohead like this, or is such a simple rail like you suggested just enough for my needs? i guess i'd have to measure the nodal point distance over and over again when using the simple rail, while my panohead would always have the optimized alignment everytime i set up my tripod.

again, thanks for the great support!
felix


If you were shooting a single row then the rail would be sufficient.

If you are shooting with your 18-55mm kit zoom lens then you will be shooting multiple rows and a simple rail will not suffice.

Shooting at 18mm you will need many images to cover 360x180, more than 30 images; more images means more seams and more chances of stitch errors.

http://www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/canon/
.............

Perhaps you could borrow your friend's fisheye lens?

.............

If you are only planning to make single virtual tour for your parents' hotel it might work out cheaper to get someone else to do it?


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:43 am 
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felix wrote:

since i would prefer not to buy the fisheye, im focusing on the 18-55mm lens which i already own. i've also found another tutorial here which seems to be quite easy to make. according to the lens database i've found, my EOS 600D with 18mm lens would result in 86mm distance from the tripod screw to the entrance pupil.
felix


That will only allow you to shoot a single row with camera/lens at the NPP.

A single row shot with an 18mm focal length on a Canon 1.6x crop factor body will have a too small a field of view.


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:25 pm 
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you are right, with my 18mm lens i'm never gonna achieve a 180° angle for vertical view. however, i'm okay with that. a few weeks ago i made this "quick and dirty" example. although its nowhere near 180°, i think its all i need. if i could only get rid of the small stiching errors, everything would be okay.

i'm still waiting for offers from serveral companies and photographers, but as i said, i'm gonna try out the DIY panohead next weekend and see how it works.


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:54 pm 
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felix wrote:


Alright so these two posts confuse me :)

since i would prefer not to buy the fisheye, im focusing on the 18-55mm lens which i already own. i've also found another tutorial here which seems to be quite easy to make. according to the lens database i've found, my EOS 600D with 18mm lens would result in 86mm distance from the tripod screw to the entrance pupil.

is it worth to put some work into a selfmade panohead like this, or is such a simple rail like you suggested just enough for my needs? i guess i'd have to measure the nodal point distance over and over again when using the simple rail, while my panohead would always have the optimized alignment everytime i set up my tripod.



Hi Felix!

We all started from the same point! :cool:

It definitely is preferable when you can organize to use a fisheye for some days when you shoot!

You need much less shots and stitching is far more simple this way for a beginner. Using a fisheye means you would need only ONE row plus Zenith.
The Nadir you might let away and retouch it by placing a logo.

You don´t need a complicated multirow-head then. Just a ring which holds the lens and which you can fix on the tripod´s center-column. You can find those rings in shops
where plumbers buy their stuff. There are DIYs on the web - this is one of the best (in German - but you see it in the pictures):

http://www.langebilder.de/nodalpunktringe.php Using his Multirow adapter - also DIY - you can shoot a full sphere easily too. As he shows it in th epictures. Clever! And cheap!
here something in English - also from Tom: http://www.langebilder.de/pipe_clamp.php:

I suggest - i do it myself - to adjust the camera in a way it´s tilted down about 10 - 12° for the one-row. This way you can achieve a very small Nadir-hole which is
easy to get retouched.
For the Zenith-shot you need to tilt the camera up to 90° - if you want to show the ceiling.

IF ceiling and floor is of minor interest - then one row horizontal is enough to show a 360° pano in which you cannot look 90° up and down - but tit´s not always vital anyway
seeing a room´s ceiling and floor.

The advantage for you would be: it´s very simple to do and can be done for few bucks.

best, Klaus


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:00 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
felix wrote:


Alright so these two posts confuse me :)

since i would prefer not to buy the fisheye, im focusing on the 18-55mm lens which i already own. i've also found another tutorial here which seems to be quite easy to make. according to the lens database i've found, my EOS 600D with 18mm lens would result in 86mm distance from the tripod screw to the entrance pupil.

is it worth to put some work into a selfmade panohead like this, or is such a simple rail like you suggested just enough for my needs? i guess i'd have to measure the nodal point distance over and over again when using the simple rail, while my panohead would always have the optimized alignment everytime i set up my tripod.



Hi Felix!

We all started from the same point! :cool:

It definitely is preferable when you can organize to use a fisheye for some days when you shoot!

You need much less shots and stitching is far more simple this way for a beginner. Using a fisheye means you would need only ONE row plus Zenith.
The Nadir you might let away and retouch it by placing a logo.

You don´t need a complicated multirow-head then. Just a ring which holds the lens and which you can fix on the tripod´s center-column. You can find those rings in shops
where plumbers buy their stuff. There are DIYs on the web - this is one of the best (in German - but you see it in the pictures):

http://www.langebilder.de/nodalpunktringe.php Using his Multirow adapter - also DIY - you can shoot a full sphere easily too. As he shows it in th epictures. Clever! And cheap!
here something in English - also from Tom: http://www.langebilder.de/pipe_clamp.php:

I suggest - i do it myself - to adjust the camera in a way it´s tilted down about 10 - 12° for the one-row. This way you can achieve a very small Nadir-hole which is
easy to get retouched.
For the Zenith-shot you need to tilt the camera up to 90° - if you want to show the ceiling.

IF ceiling and floor is of minor interest - then one row horizontal is enough to show a 360° pano in which you cannot look 90° up and down - but tit´s not always vital anyway
seeing a room´s ceiling and floor.

The advantage for you would be: it´s very simple to do and can be done for few bucks.

best, Klaus


I fully agree with Klaus although I think using a nadir adapter like the one from nodal ninja and making the righ nador shots will make a complete 360 *180 so easy. But yes, not shooting the nadirs is easier.

I downloaded the hotel files and found that by default there are a lot of errors like the ones you described. I tried to solve things with markers and found it to be rather difficult to do within limited time. So yes your need to concentrate on the right settings with a real panohead. My advise would nbe a nodal ninja 4 with a RD-16 but that might be to expensive for the moment.

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Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 8:33 pm 
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If you use a fisheye, which you should unless you have a real good reason otherwise, forget about all of these ridiculously priced heads. Make your own! Its free, it will take less than a day to make so you can start shooting the same day, no waiting for the postal service, it will end up being just as accurate as one you'd pay 300€ for, you stress less about losing or damaging it when on the go, and it will probably weigh less than one you'd buy.

Check out the Nodal Samurai Lite on Mediavet's link: http://www.peterloud.co.uk/nodalsamurai/
Last year I emailed Peter for more info - it's simply a flat piece of firm steel bent at 45° and of the right length so that your lens's no-parallax point aligns with the tripod's rotation axis. That's all there is to it, it's really that simple, and apparently some people would pay 300€ for that. I made one last year before I left on a long hike around Europe. I have a professional head, but I didn't want to carry it, it's too big and too heavy, so I made my own, and it works beautifully. Best thing is, a fisheye lens (well, my Samyang 8mm fisheye lens, maybe yours too) doesn't really have a no-parallax "point" because that point changes by over half a centimeter depending on which angle you look at, so you don't have to be too precise making the head. Just find the vicinity of the no-parallax "point" on your fisheye lens (mine is marked with a yellow ring), then measure the right length from the camera's screw at the base to that point, and those are your measurements for the screw holes in the piece of steel. Measure the piece of steel a bit longer than that, so you can drill those holes. You bend it 45° because your lens's diagonal field-of-view is the largest. Lastly, I like to be able to snap my camera into place, I don't like screws, they take too long, so I bought a cheapo camera mount plate on eBay from China (something like 10€) and use that with my home-made head. Four shots round (one shot every 90°), nadir and zenith if there's something hard to patch, otherwise if there's just e.g. grass and blue sky then skip the nadir and zenith and just patch the small holes after stitching.


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:50 pm 
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For 400 dollar you have a great set like the nodal ninja 4 advanced package http://shop.nodalninja.com/nn4-w-rd16-i ... tor-f4503/
For a bit over 300 dollar you have the starter package http://shop.nodalninja.com/nn4-starter-package-f4500/

With these packages you can do everything you ever want to do with panoramas and normal lenses.

Now it is fine if someone wants to spend his/her time creating a limited homemade solution, I pass.


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:01 am 
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If you use a fisheye lens, there is no need for adjustable heavy expensive heads. All 300$ gets you is feeling special for a few months, until you meet someone with an 800$ head, and for a moment you feel not so special, but then your ego defense mechanism kicks in and you think that someone is silly for having spent 800$ on a pano head and you reaffirm yourself that you made the right choice, but after a few weeks of carrying your heavy professional 300$ head up mountains you realize even 300$ is just as silly for something that does such an incredibly simple job as keeping your lens ~8cm away from the rotational axis :cool:

Of course if you want to shoot panos using several lenses, then an adjustable head is nice and the above does not apply. I like the Bushman Gobi head Kolor is advertising, 320 gram! http://bushman-panoramic.com/panoramic-heads/gobi.php


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:57 am 
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thanks a lot for all the feedback.

yesterday, my web designer replied and told me that he still has backup files of the old pano plugin(which is about 10years old, tiny compressed,and based on java). he will have a look if these old backup files are still big enough to produce a new, modern fullscreen pano for the website. if that works, we only need to add 1-2 new panos, which might be cheaper to hire a photographer for instead of buying a fisheye lens especially for that.

if the old pano files turn out to be too small, i might be looking into buying a fisheye and making a panohead myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:50 am 
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felix wrote:
if the old pano files turn out to be too small,


They will :cool: - being about 10 years old . . .

Klaus


Last edited by klausesser on Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:52 am 
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DrSlony wrote:
If you use a fisheye lens, there is no need for adjustable heavy expensive heads.



Right - not for heavy and expensive ones. But shooting indoors in small rooms you definitely need a precise alignment.

Otherwise you need heavy editing.

Klaus


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:16 pm 
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Java? Forget it. Don't use Flash either, unless only as a fallback.

klausesser: there is no such thing as a precise alignment with a lens that has no single nodal "point" - it's forgiving to within a few mm. I don't know if all fisheye lenses have a "floating" NPP, but mine certainly does. Despite this, what's stopping you from drilling two holes at precise distances? :]


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:36 pm 
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DrSlony wrote:
Java? Forget it. Don't use Flash either, unless only as a fallback.


Hmmm...you can set things up with PTP 2.x (and pano2VR AFAIK) to prefer HTML5 and fallback to Flash; but for now at least the krpano Flash Panorama Viewer is more feature rich than the krpnao HTML5 Panorama Viewer for tours create with PTP 2.x. So in that case it's perhaps more appropriate to prefer Flash and fallback to HTML5 on those platforms that can operate with either?

Quote:
klausesser: there is no such thing as a precise alignment with a lens that has no single nodal "point" - it's forgiving to within a few mm. I don't know if all fisheye lenses have a "floating" NPP, but mine certainly does. Despite this, what's stopping you from drilling two holes at precise distances? :]


They all do.


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:01 pm 
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what does a floating nodal point mean? in case my friend allows me to borrow his fisheye once more and i build my panohead especially for the fisheye's nodal point.

surprisingly i havent found anything yet regarding the nodal point distance for the "walimex pro I 8mm"


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:31 pm 
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felix wrote:
what does a floating nodal point mean? in case my friend allows me to borrow his fisheye once more and i build my panohead especially for the fisheye's nodal point.

http://michel.thoby.free.fr/Fisheye_his ... heory.html

Quote:
surprisingly i havent found anything yet regarding the nodal point distance for the "walimex pro I 8mm"

Look for Samyang 8mm f3.5 instead - same lens different branding.


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 Post subject: Re: Help for a beginner
PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:05 pm 
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DrSlony wrote:
Java? Forget it. Don't use Flash either, unless only as a fallback.

klausesser: there is no such thing as a precise alignment with a lens that has no single nodal "point" - it's forgiving to within a few mm. I don't know if all fisheye lenses have a "floating" NPP, but mine certainly does. Despite this, what's stopping you from drilling two holes at precise distances? :]


Each lense´s NPP floats with focussing. Depends on the shooting distances. With a fisheye it´s floating usually is 1 - 2mm. That´s negligible - aside from shooting inside a dish-whasher or so . . . =D :cool:

So i use to set the NPP a bit different when i shoot on close distance - i have tested these settings for all of my lenses and i take the one which corresponds with my shooting distance.

Again: this only needs to be done using somewhat longer lenses indoors when you have very close and rather far objects - or, as said, a fisheye on close distance.

You can realize it easily on many pictures where you see the Nadir-hole: usually it´s not symmetrical when the focus is set to a far away distance.
When it´s symmetrical and the rest is without errors the photographer used a clever mix of focus- AND NPP-setting.

best, Klaus


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