once again - for the 12th time:  

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lumelix
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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by lumelix » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:58 am

Hi
I try out something with the papywizard import module and found a funny thing:
The two images above are in landscape orientation but you shoot them in portrait orientation.
It's because you have deactivated the camera inclination sensor.

Now if I rotate them directly into the papywizard module then I get a completely wrong FOV and focal lenght in APG. It calculates over 300 mm focal lenght and the FOV is much to small for a 20mm WW.

If I import the images as they are and rotate the pano into APG everything looks ok. FOV is 100º and focal lenght is above 20mm.
Attachments
papywizard_03.jpg
papywizard_03.jpg (211.23 KiB) Viewed 1473 times
papywizard_02.jpg
papywizard_02.jpg (225.16 KiB) Viewed 1473 times
papywizard_01.jpg
papywizard_01.jpg (102.8 KiB) Viewed 1473 times
Regards
Martin

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:29 pm

lumelix wrote:Hi
I try out something with the papywizard import module and found a funny thing:
The two images above are in landscape orientation but you shoot them in portrait orientation.
It's because you have deactivated the camera inclination sensor.

Now if I rotate them directly into the papywizard module then I get a completely wrong FOV and focal lenght in APG. It calculates over 300 mm focal lenght and the FOV is much to small for a 20mm WW.

If I import the images as they are and rotate the pano into APG everything looks ok. FOV is 100º and focal lenght is above 20mm.



Hi Martin!

I´m not quite sure what´s your point . . . I´m acting this way for years without any issue.

I always shoot in portrait-orientation. The importer always imports them as landscapes. I always rotate them to portrait in the importer.
Usually no problems at all.

I´m just about to shoot a sphere in the backyard - deleting all entries in the camera regarding focal/aperture-values of my non-exif-lenses. Mayne it´s something in this entries the
PapyWizard import-module in APG gets confused by. As said: PTGui handles it WITHOUT any error.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:40 pm

lumelix wrote:Hi Klaus
For selecting the images in Papywizard Module do you use the system fileexplorer or the one of APG ?
I have seen that there is a new option in the settings "Allgemein - Thema" where we can select this.
I use always the system fileexplorer.
Then there is an Option while installing to install APGs file context functions in the fileexplorer.
I don't do this because I don't use context functions for APG.
Maybe this can have an influence how APG is "reading" the input files?
The best will be to clean install APG on one machine and then test it again ;)


Hi Martin!

I do the import the same way as ever . . don´t exactly know what you mean!?

Using the PW import there´s only one way to select images.

But what i realized minutes ago: usually there´s a difference between "use xml-focal length" and "use image focal length".
Selecting "use xml focal length" sets the values which are in the XML.
Selecting "use image focal length" sets the values which are set in the APG´s prefs or - maybe - come from the image´s EXIFs (my lenses don´t provide EXIFs).

I always set "use xml focal length" - and never had a problem with it. Until 3.0.8 came.

The XML definitely says: "20mm" and "rectiliniear".

best, Klaus

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:56 pm

Funny: makes no differences whether i choose "use xml focal lenth" or when i choose "use image focal lenth" . . . in both cases the the xml focal-length is set!
(makes me crazy trying to put images into a logical order with the uploader . . .)

Bildschirmfoto 2013-10-21 um 13.58.41.png
nevertheless whether i select "use xml focal" or"use image focl" - the result is:
Bildschirmfoto 2013-10-21 um 13.58.41.png (153.43 KiB) Viewed 1460 times


Bildschirmfoto 2013-10-21 um 13.53.41.png
Bildschirmfoto 2013-10-21 um 13.53.41.png (44.68 KiB) Viewed 1460 times


Bildschirmfoto 2013-10-21 um 13.53.41.png
Bildschirmfoto 2013-10-21 um 13.53.41.png (44.68 KiB) Viewed 1460 times


Klaus
Attachments
Bildschirmfoto 2013-10-21 um 13.52.50.png
Bildschirmfoto 2013-10-21 um 13.52.50.png (60.84 KiB) Viewed 1460 times

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by lumelix » Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:06 pm

Hi Klaus

What I will say with this is that it seems that there is going something wrong in the papywizard import tool when rotating there the landscape images.
The resulting FOV and calculated focal length in APG are totally wrong.

When importing without rotating them, these values are ok but the pano must be rotated then in APG.
Below are my general settings in APG.
Note the setting about using the system file-explorer, this is not default.
And I don't use one of these EXIF-settings. This could be your problem here.
Attachments
apg_allgemein.jpg
apg_allgemein.jpg (74.81 KiB) Viewed 1451 times
apg_bilder.jpg
apg_bilder.jpg (44.69 KiB) Viewed 1451 times
Regards
Martin

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:25 pm

lumelix wrote:Hi Klaus

What I will say with this is that it seems that there is going something wrong in the papywizard import tool when rotating there the landscape images.
The resulting FOV and calculated focal length in APG are totally wrong.

When importing without rotating them, these values are ok but the pano must be rotated then in APG.
Below are my general settings in APG.
Note the setting about using the system file-explorer, this is not default.
And I don't use one of these EXIF-settings. This could be your problem here.


Hi Martin!

I use the import like i use it for years without any issue. I used it util 3.0.8 came out - in 3.0.7 there is NO issue.

The problem seems to be: the importer doesn´t seem to distinguish "use xml focus" and "use image focus". BOTH show the SAME values when selected.

No matter i chose "use xml focal length" or i chose "use image focal lenth": in both cases the importer sets the xml focal length - but declares it as "fisheye".

So in my eyes it´s clearly a bug in the importer.

Fact is - to name it again:
1) this issue came up since i use 3.0.8 it´s NOT in 3.0.7 - ONLY in 3.0.8
2) PTGui does NOT show this issue.

IF it were in the xml or in the EXIFs PTGui would show the same issue, don´t you think?

best, Klaus

PS: i did what you also did - i did set no values in the presets regarding focal lenth or lens-type.
Nevertheless it´s the same issue.

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by lumelix » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:10 pm

Hi Klaus
But I can't reproduce this "fisheye"-bug !?
On my Win7x64-machine the papywizard import your images as it should - as standard lens with 20mm focal lenght.
The only problem I could find ist this funny thing with wrong FOV and focal lenght if I rotate the images just in the importer.
But the pano is created well nevertheless.

So I guess the problem must have something to do with your installations or settings ?
That the problem has occurred since you have installed version 3.0.8 suggest this.
Or perhaps it depends only at the MAC-version, which I can not test.

Have you also test this "Verwende System Dateibrowser" setting ?
Regards
Martin

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:57 pm

lumelix wrote:Have you also test this "Verwende System Dateibrowser" setting ?



It´s checked! As always.

best, Klaus

PS: i un-checked it. No difference. still fisheye . . .

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by mediavets » Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:53 pm

klausesser wrote:The problem seems to be: the importer doesn´t seem to distinguish "use xml focus" and "use image focus". BOTH show the SAME values when selected.

No matter i chose "use xml focal length" or i chose "use image focal lenth": in both cases the importer sets the xml focal length - but declares it as "fisheye".


Are you sure your images don't have EXIF?

The sample image set that you gave me access to definitely had EXIF and the focal length in the EXIF was 20mm, as it was in the XML, and the PW Import wizard did not notice/report any difference.

And after Import when I looked at Group image properties it reported focal length 20mm and lens type Standard.

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:05 pm

mediavets wrote:
Are you sure your images don't have EXIF?




Of course they have! But none from the lens! The only lens-informations which can be in the EXIFs are the ones i
typed into the D800: focal length and max. aperture.

best, Klaus

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by mediavets » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:24 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
Are you sure your images don't have EXIF?




Of course they have! But none from the lens! The only lens-informations which can be in the EXIFs are the ones i
typed into the D800: focal length and max. aperture.

best, Klaus


AFAIK APG is only interested in focal length, and iis obvioulsy reading the focal length from the EXIF correctly.

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:26 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
Are you sure your images don't have EXIF?




Of course they have! But none from the lens! The only lens-informations which can be in the EXIFs are the ones i
typed into the D800: focal length and max. aperture.

best, Klaus


AFAIK APG is only interested in focal length, and iis obvioulsy reading the focal length from the EXIF correctly.


Seems so, yes. But my 20mm lens definitely is NOT a fisheye . . . :cool:

best, Klaus

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by ThomasV » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:57 pm

Hello,

From what I understand, there are 2 issues here.
First, as martin, mediavets and I cannot reproduce the issue, there is an issue with APG settings or usage on your side Klauss.
The second issue is on APG side. It indeed seems that the lens type is badly imported from the xml (and almost not imported at all). This must be fixed on software side.
Issue #2713 opened for that.

Thanks for reporting this bug.
Thomas

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:34 pm

ThomasV wrote:Hello,

From what I understand, there are 2 issues here.
First, as martin, mediavets and I cannot reproduce the issue, there is an issue with APG settings or usage on your side Klauss.
The second issue is on APG side. It indeed seems that the lens type is badly imported from the xml (and almost not imported at all). This must be fixed on software side.
Issue #2713 opened for that.

Thanks for reporting this bug.
Thomas



Sounds like a contradiction, don´t you think?

My usage is: i use a work-around by setting "force x x" in the prefs. THEN the import uses the lens i set by "force x x"

So the only "issue on my side" rises when i forget to set "force x x" and rely on the importer to do what it´s supposed to do . .

There´s no other "issue in my use" at all, Thomas.

Again: the issue does not rise in PTGui and also not in APG 3.0.7 . . . it only appears in 3.0.8.

In the jimport-window clicking on "use xml focal" or clicking on "use image focal" makes no difference at all - both do not react.
Nevertheless teh xml focal lengths is taken - but interpreted as "fisheye".

That´s all.

When i set "force xx" in the prefs of APG everything works fine: the importer takes the focal-lengths and lens-model i set in the prefs by "force xx".

Hope i could make it cleaer in the end . . :rolleyes:

best, Klaus

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by mediavets » Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:50 pm

klausesser wrote:
ThomasV wrote:Hello,

From what I understand, there are 2 issues here.
First, as martin, mediavets and I cannot reproduce the issue, there is an issue with APG settings or usage on your side Klauss.
The second issue is on APG side. It indeed seems that the lens type is badly imported from the xml (and almost not imported at all). This must be fixed on software side.
Issue #2713 opened for that.

Thanks for reporting this bug.
Thomas



Sounds like a contradiction, don´t you think?

My usage is: i use a work-around by setting "force x x" in the prefs. THEN the import uses the lens i set by "force x x"

So the only "issue on my side" rises when i forget to set "force x x" and rely on the importer to do what it´s supposed to do . .

There´s no other "issue in my use" at all, Thomas.

Again: the issue does not rise in PTGui and also not in APG 3.0.7 . . . it only appears in 3.0.8.

In the jimport-window clicking on "use xml focal" or clicking on "use image focal" makes no difference at all - both do not react.
Nevertheless teh xml focal lengths is taken - but interpreted as "fisheye".

That´s all.

When i set "force xx" in the prefs of APG everything works fine: the importer takes the focal-lengths and lens-model i set in the prefs by "force xx".

Hope i could make it clearer in the end . . :rolleyes:

best, Klaus


The difference is - none of us needs to use the workaround for it to work correctly. No need for 'Force xx' in the settings/preferences.

So it seems your settings - and/or usage - are different from ours.

.............

Are we all testing with the same example image set?

I used all defaults for everything and the result was just fine.

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:45 pm

mediavets wrote:So it seems your settings - and/or usage - are different from ours.



Sorry, Andrew: neither my settings nor my usage is different from yours. I´m using APG since 2008.

I posted screenshots from all my settings. I´ll post them again:

1.png
1.png (97.49 KiB) Viewed 1393 times
Global prefs in APG
2.png
2.png (78.9 KiB) Viewed 1393 times
That´s what the import-module shows - ok so far
2A.png
2A.png (76.11 KiB) Viewed 1393 times
That´s after rotating the images in the import-module

more in the following window . . . (why is that restricted to three images??)
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Wed Oct 23, 2013 4:49 pm

last two images:

2B.png
2B.png (67.17 KiB) Viewed 1392 times
that´s after rotating the images
3.png
3.png (151.73 KiB) Viewed 1392 times
that´s what the group-window shows after hitting "finish" in the importer.
4.png
4.png (411.9 KiB) Viewed 1392 times
that´s when the stitch has started.

Please tell me where my usage or my settings are wrong! :cool:


Besides: the aperture wasn´t 11 - it was 5,6. The lens is much better @f11 . . . ;)
best Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:03 pm

I nowhere did set "fisheye".
Nowhere in the XML is "fisheye".

A 20mm lens on a FX CANNOT be a fisheye. Fisheyes on FX are either fullframes 15mm (Canon) or 16mm (Nikon) - or circular 10,5mm or 8mm . . . .
but DEFINITELY NOT 20mm!

In the XML my 20mm lens clearly is named "rectilinear".
The number of shots - 24 - unmistakably make clear: it CANNOT be a fisheye.

And you tell me it´s "my usage" or "my settings" ???? Please show me where my usage or my settings are wrong!

Again and again: PTGui DOES NOT show this issue using the VERY SAME images and XML import.

And: yes - we all use the same images and XML which i sent to Andrew and gave the download-link to Alexandre.

But everybody might feel free to try:
http://www.klausesser-interaktiv.de/Andrew.zip (images)
http://www.klausesser-interaktiv.de/18_ ... 14.xml.zip (XML)

(please don´t look close - we were in the middle of a renovation . . =D )

Klaus

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by mediavets » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:13 pm

Next two posts show 5 screenshots - APG 3.08 on Windows 8.1 - and yes mine look different to yours Klaus.

For me it sees all images as portrait orientation, so no rotating in the import module.
Attachments
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2-klaus.jpg
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3-klaus.jpg
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Last edited by mediavets on Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by mediavets » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:16 pm

Last two of five screenshots following on from previous post.
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5-klaus.jpg
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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:28 pm

mediavets wrote:Next two posts show 5 screenshots - APG 3.08 on Windows 8.1 - and yes mine look different to yours Klaus.

For me it sees all images as portrait orientation, so no rotating in the import module.



Andrew: i use the same procedere for some years now. With images from my 5D2 and now from my D800.

Always i need to rotate the images before starting the stitch. But that ha no meaning - it works very well when i do not rotate them.
I then just rotate the stitch in the editor-window. No problem.

NEVER i was told my lenses - 20, 35, 85 mm - are "fisheyes" . . .

best, Klaus

PS: you might think i´m hallucinating . . . but you see the screenshots.

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by mediavets » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:38 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:Next two posts show 5 screenshots - APG 3.08 on Windows 8.1 - and yes mine look different to yours Klaus.

For me it sees all images as portrait orientation, so no rotating in the import module.



Andrew: i use the same procedere for some years now. With images from my 5D2 and now from my D800.

Always i need to rotate the images before starting the stitch. But that ha no meaning - it works very well when i do not rotate them.
I then just rotate the stitch in the editor-window. No problem.

NEVER i was told my lenses - 20, 35, 85 mm - are "fisheyes" . . .

best, Klaus

PS: you might think i´m hallucinating . . . but you see the screenshots.


I do see them and they are different from mine.

You say you need to rotate the images. I say I don't.

That's a different usage.

You set Force paramaters in setting/preferences - and I don't.

Perhaps if you were to do it the way I did you'd get a diferent result - who knows?

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by mediavets » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:48 pm

If I rotate the images in the Import module I get a bad result - see below.

However it still 'sees'/reports the lens type as standard.

And I never see the images displayed in landscape orientation in the Group pane unlike you.
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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by lumelix » Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:46 pm

Hi all
I try out these two downloads from Klaus also on Win7x64 with APG 3.0.8 (64bit).
And it's clear that there is something misterious in this papywizard module !
But who wonders: it's logo is the hat from Merlin ;)

My first try was with my general settings for testing giga-panos and end up in a totally mess, see below:
As you can see, the papywizard reads the XML correctly but shows no focal length from the EXIF.
This is ok because all this images have no EXIF inside, no ones from the D800 also (?).
All images are in portrait orientation without rotating them. The preview in the wizard is funny
because there are gigantic gaps between this overlapping images. This calculation is clearly wrong.
But now, APG starts with a focal length of 1mm (one !!!) and the pano was a completely mess.
But: The lens is declared as "STANDARD" ;)

Then I close APG and start it again, first I set all general settings to the default values. Then the papywizard shows me again the XML data but no EXIF focal length.

And now - APG starts - magically - with a standard 20mm lens and the pano is ok.
So, what happends that it works now?

I try to reconfigurate my settings as they was and try to replicate the first case.
With no success. But with the forth try APG hangs up while optimize the controll points. I have - for the first time - to shut down APG !

For me it's clear: This wizard has some strange quirks and idiosyncrasies that need to be addressed. The XML import is important for all who work with motorized heads, and must work correctly with and without EXIF data in each case, and on each machine, PC or MAC. And with fisheye and wide angles.

On the other hand I know as an IT-specialist that there aren't two exactly identical computer on the world. My recommendation for Klaus is completely reinstall APG and then try using the default settings again. Maybe it helps.
Attachments
papyimp1.jpg
papyimp1.jpg (47.77 KiB) Viewed 1364 times
bad1.jpg
bad1.jpg (88.16 KiB) Viewed 1364 times
ok1.jpg
ok1.jpg (97.5 KiB) Viewed 1364 times
Regards
Martin

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Re: once again - for the 12th time:

by klausesser » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:31 pm

Ok folks! :cool:

Must be something related to Nikon:

when i first rotate the images in Lightroom to portrait everything is fine: the 20mm lens is recognized as standard.

Strange, is it . . .

Maybe the PW importer doesn´t like D800 files straight from the camera? =D :cool:

Didn´t we have something familiar some time before? I mean there were issues with D800 files, wrong?

best to all - and many thanks for caring!!

Klaus

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