Problem Stitching

[HansKeesom]

by HansKeesom » Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:10 pm

I have good experience with real photographers that I teach panorama-photography. They bring so much knowlegde to the equation that once they've learned how to make a panorama they combine that knowledge with what they already know about light, composition etc.

Your last sentence is what I see more and more and am building my business on. Photographers realise that they can't do everything themselves if they don't want to spend a lot of time learning the stitching technique. As long as I return them a good quality panorama and sometimes layers, they can see the win-win situation. Together with some hosting and ICT and integration support this works fine for both parties

I'm sure that's very true but the point I was making is that people who go to the trouble of posting ON HERE with their APG stitching problems are very likely to want to know how they could improve their technique not just hand it all over for someone else to solve with no feedback

Right - but when you buy a car you need to learn how to drive. When you start to shoot panoramas it´s the same. Doing panoramas means to know or to learn at least two things:

1) how to shoot.
2) how to stitch.

Expecting everything to go automated is a bit blue-eyed. In the end it´s photography, as said. If the way of shooting isn´t appropriate - it´s either impossible to achieve a good stitch or
it needs WAYS of work to compensate faults which would have been avoidable with more basical understanding the shooting-process.

When issues rise one needs to know where they come from to compensate them. Here we again have TWO things which need to be understood:

1) photography
2) stitching.

Some people say they don´t want to learn the basics. Ok - their decision. But it means to need asking for help each time an issue rises - without learning that most of the issues are connected
to each other that means permanently asking for help.
So when a photographer doesn´t know about perspective, distortions, the way different focal-legths act in terms of stitching, shooting distances related to focal-lengths and so on he/she inavaoidably will run into issues.

Even the best post-pro guy or gal not always will be able to make a faulty shoot a perfect stitch.

Amen. :cool:

best, Klaus

When you buy a car you can learn how to drive a car. Or hire a chauffeur. Maybe you don't buy a car and use public transport, because you don't want to invest in buying a car and learning how to drive it. And what about the maintenance? I bought my car 12 years ago and only once did some maintenance....and broke it. All I want to say is think creative and outside the box.

Back to panoramas

Yes you need to understand how to make the photos for a panorama. So all that stuf about nodal point and zenith and nadir and stacks and how to choose the middle exposure and white balance........

But that is not the same knowledge you need for stitching.

Yes, garbage in, garbage out. But my experience is that I can teach photographers to get the basics so precisely right that I am well able to stitch things. My deal with them is that I try everything I can to get things right but I am not able to do miracles. If they mount their camera the wrong way on their panoramic adapter then I am not able to fix it..........

More importantly however, even if they would teach themselves how to stitch and buy enough computer power, they sometimes prefer to spend their time meeting their potential customers and discussing exiting new projects instead of pixel peeping behind a computer ;-)

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:32 pm

Yes you need to understand how to make the photos for a panorama. So all that stuf about nodal point and zenith and nadir and stacks and how to choose the middle exposure and white balance........

A basical misunderstanding, Hans.

As long as it´s the usual stuff - shooting spheres using fisheyes and so that´s enough to know. Yes. Not really enough for excellent shoots - but ok.

But in Track´s case of the"tall building" he made two of the fundamental photographical mistakes: he was too close to the object and stitch-wise he shot non-symmetrical.

Rather few panorama-photographers are "real" photographers - which means they didn´t learn and/or study photography from scratch, including optical laws and technical handling of shift and tilt or whatever professional photographers have learned and studied and practised for years with 35mm/MF/large-format cameras and from still-lifes to people shots.
Most paorama-authors are advanced hobbyists who try to make a living from panoramas. And that´s ok!

One of the basic rules shooting UWW - that´s what Track did virtually and what shooting and stitching a mosaic in most cases means - is: keep the camera strictly levelled to the ground and, in the case of shooting sequentially for stitching, shoot symmetrically: same angle upwards and downwards . . . though most of the the downward-images seem to be redundant: you need them for perspective correcting the stitch in the editor. After the rendering you can crop them.

The second basic rule is: know how close you can approach an object in terms of FOV. A trained photographer knows where the limit is - he will keep enough distance to be able to correct extreme distortions.

"These days" automated cameras as well as applications almost do miracles - compared to "yesterday" . They really do in some ways - photography in terms of technics is very much easier. But no automatic can solve issues risen by non- or misunderstanding of basic photography-rules. And there are SOME . . . as we cen read here - and generally on the web - every second day.

Klaus

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:18 pm

More importantly however, even if they would teach themselves how to stitch and buy enough computer power, they sometimes prefer to spend their time meeting their potential customers and discussing exiting new projects instead of pixel peeping behind a computer ;-)

Real interesting/attractive potential or existing clients willing and able to pay an appropriate price for your work very well know how to find thde best for their needs:
they know how to differ excellent work from so-so results. And that is not - not only - a matter of costs.

These clients often work with professional producers/agencies which book the photographers - and these producers check photographers intensely before booking one, be assured .
On the other hand they have no problems with minor stitch-errors as long as it´s aesthetically excellent.

So it´s definitely preferable to know EVERYTHING about photography AND stitching - also technically - when you deal with this kind of clients to be sure not to promise things you can´t realize in the end after having "discussed exciting new projects" . . .

Panorama-photography has a somewhat "cheapo smelling touch" for a certain level of clients - they tried it once . . and didn´t like the results. I had some meetings where top managers not even liked to view our examples first hand - they had seen mediocre results before and that was in their heads.
Having seen our presentation then they learned that it can be done on a level which correlates perfectly to their product/location - and costs suddenly were no longer objects of discussion.

So it definitely has advantages to really know what you´re doing: you´re more persuasive - in any aspect

Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[HansKeesom]

by HansKeesom » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:39 pm

Klaus,

In the history of the economy we have seen many examples of specialisation that allowed people to be more productive and earn more wealth.
Important is to decide where one can do the right cut when splitting an job in two.

On the issue of quality, that is why I work at a no cure no pay basis...

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:58 pm

Klaus,
In the history of the economy we have seen many examples of specialisation that allowed people to be more productive and earn more wealth.

Somewhat different pair of shoes i´d say . . .

Important is to decide where one can do the right cut when splitting an job in two.

Of course.

Klaus

[Track]

by Track » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:29 pm

I'm sure that's very true but the point I was making is that people who go to the trouble of posting ON HERE with their APG stitching problems are very likely to want to know how they could improve their technique not just hand it all over for someone else to solve with no feedback

As an outsourcing arrangement for busy professional photographers, that is a different situation and I'm sure you provide a valuable service

best
Martin

While these old timers boost each other's egos at my expense, you're the only one who understands my needs, Marzipano.

You know, I honestly dislike coming here anymore when I am certain to run into an elitist "professional" photographer (literally) three times my age who'd rather preach to me than help me.

But the worst part isn't that I get offended.. it's that it's extremely obvious that these guys have the knowledge to help me and more but they just can't bring themselves to put it in laymen's terms because of some subconscious elitist fantasy that one should go through the exact path they did to acquire this knowledge.

Which begs the question - why are they even on this forum? Help forums exist solely for the purpose of getting a heads up and fixing a problem without having to read the entire guide. They're either in the wrong place or they don't realize that the real reason they're here is to show off and feel superior..

But I digress.

OT: I have tested Hand's method and it works - when you only place the two photos in AutoPano, there's no stitching error. However, when stitching all the photos, the problem persists.

Last edited by Track on Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[HansKeesom]

by HansKeesom » Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:37 pm

OT: I have tested Hand's method and it works - when you only place the two photos in AutoPano, there's no stitching error. However, when stitching all the photos, the problem persists.

Well I must have missed that........only two photos were available so I stitched them.

Can you dropbox me all files so that I can reproduce the error and then find a solution for your problem. Share a folder with hans@alsofjeerbent.nl

[Track]

by Track » Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:47 pm

OT: I have tested Hand's method and it works - when you only place the two photos in AutoPano, there's no stitching error. However, when stitching all the photos, the problem persists.

Well I must have missed that........only two photos were available so I stitched them.

Can you dropbox me all files so that I can reproduce the error and then find a solution for your problem. Share a folder with hans@alsofjeerbent.nl

Nah, it's cool. I inferred from your stitch that you used the Planar projection and doing the same yielded no errors.

Btw, if I misjudged you in my previous post, I apologize. You seem to have good intentions

[Artisan New]

by Artisan New » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:12 am

Amen indeed.........

Greets, Ed.

[Artisan New]

by Artisan New » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:27 am

Klaus,

From what I can judge he made a cartload of errors.....and you can get away (as Hans states) with 1 error, but not with a whole cartload. To close is a problem.....but only if you don't have hight.....if he would have been at half the level of the building, he would (probably) have been alright. He should learn how to shoot evenly as well (that would have helped a great deal), nice methodical work, complete the rows and the columns 1 by one, 5 degrees to the right...click, 5 degrees to the right.....click, 10 degrees down....click, 5 degrees to the left.....click.....then he should have used an .XML (learn how to fake one if you don't have a digital controler that writes XML to accompany a motorized panohead)....did that for a year and guess what now I've got a controler that does kick out .XML it makes all the more sence. Use a good Panomount (a Panosaurus is a good bottom price panomount at 99 dollars and it is American build so you can proudly sing the Stars and Stripes when it arrives and you can't do that with an iPhone can you). And check the nodal point, check the nodal point again, and again, and again.....and then some more. Until you are damned sure that that is not going to sting you in the fanny (since stichting a quality panorama is easy, stitching #### is hard, doable usually but it takes a lot of time, blood, sweat, and some prolific use of 4 and 3 letter words (we Dutch curse efficient right Hans).

Then import (the easyest way is to use Papywizard XML since that is lucid and open source (well documented) and easy to fake) and straighten out the pano using the ||-tool in the Editor window......again, again, again, and again........

Greets and amen, Ed.

[con]

by con » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:02 am

Which begs the question - why are they even on this forum? Help forums exist solely for the purpose of getting a heads up and fixing a problem without having to read the entire guide. They're either in the wrong place or they don't realize that the real reason they're here is to show off and feel superior..

There's some unbelievably great info on this forum and the help and insight provided by all is unrivaled.
Your novice problem is a pretty basic fix. Knowing how to ask the question and providing some useful info to help solve is pretty much form, get fed-up with people needing more info to help you is odd. And having a dig at people because of their age is spectacularly shortsighted

Young man, you need to create control points between the adjoining photos, and then optimize.

[Artisan New]

by Artisan New » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:21 am

Young man, you need to create control points between the adjoining photos, and then optimize.

An if that does not work first time, do it again, and again and again......made a pano with a motorized mount with shifting light and fog, haze, dust, spray (from anti-dust sprayers used about 200 meters under me)......it all in all took 12 hours of work to get it to a stage that I (< as in me) like it. What our young brash freind is asking is an easy fix, but easy fixes are not a part of the panorama shooting world. You are asking a camera to do something it was not intended for using software. That means you're in hardhat land no matter how great Kolor (or PTGui for that matter since I own both) build their software there will always be problems (we like to call them challanges). If you're prepared to deal with them and shave on your technique through a thing called experience....be my guest. If not well bugger of will you since quite frankly, easy fixes sometimes work but most of the time they kick you in the nuts elsewhere in the panorama. "yes now the fence stitches, but now the rest of panorama drops apart".....and if nothing else helps:

- use photoshop and correct the stitch error manually using some localised stretching, pulling and cloning, but as Klaus will surely say (ifhe's still reading this thread)....if you have to resort to that, update your technique......again, and again, and again.

Greets, Ed.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:32 am

You know, I honestly dislike coming here anymore when I am certain to run into an elitist "professional" photographer (literally) three times my age who'd rather preach to me than help me.

I helped you more than once.

Intelligent people make mistakes - all of them - and then *learn* about the *reasons* the mistakes happened for avoiding them next time.
You don´t - you said it - want to *learn* about *why* you made a mistake. You want to be taken by the hand and have your fault corrected
by somebody else so you don´t need to think about it.

Your business - not mine.

What does my age - or anybody´s age - have to do with that? I learned - and i still learn - from others who have more knowledge than i
have . . and i´m glad being able to pass on the knowledge to others. Which i did many times here - to be honest.

That´s the way it works. Childish behavior doesn´t work at all.

Klaus

PS:

"Which begs the question - why are they even on this forum? Help forums exist solely for the purpose of getting a heads up and fixing a problem without having to read the entire guide. They're either in the wrong place or they don't realize that the real reason they're here is to show off and feel superior.."

This is a forum to (!)discuss(!) and (!)communicate(!) about APG and PTP. Us "old agers" :cool: are glad - i said it - to help others. And that´s usually working good! Any time you help somebody you learn more and more for yourself.
But sometimes - we had it before - some people seem to feel "offended" already by hearing the truth - and the truth is: they simply made mistakes. They feel even more "offended" by being asked to *learn* from their mistakes
and why they occurred.
They act like sitting in front of an automat demanding answers by hitting a key.

I really don´t need to "show off and feel superior" - superior to whom??? You?

Last edited by klausesser on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Track]

by Track » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:44 pm

And having a dig at people because of their age is spectacularly shortsighted

Young man, you need to create control points between the adjoining photos, and then optimize.

Ironic.

Intelligent people make mistakes - all of them - and then *learn* about the *reasons* the mistakes happened for avoiding them next time.

How can I learn about the reasons when you won't explain?? You talk giberish to me and then blame me for not understanding. That's condescending.

You don´t - you said it - want to *learn* about *why* you made a mistake. You want to be taken by the hand and have your fault corrected

Klaus, to be a good helper, you must hold someone's hand and at the same time explain things to them in a way they could understand.

You're insinuating that I'm not receptive - but that's not true.

Your business - not mine.

Yes, exactly. This is my business - not yours. I asked a question, I expect a reply.

Don't think I deserve one? Don't post. Coming here and lecturing me or mocking me under your breath is both obvious and pathetic.

What does my age - or anybody´s age - have to do with that? I learned - and i still learn

You constantly belittle me and mock my inexperience, as if you're unaware that mocking someone who's 1/3 your age is not pathetic.

Of course I'm inexperienced. I'm 23. That has no bearing on photography. Photography is art - either you have it or you don't. The technicality that you learn with experience is meaningless besides assisting you in your craft.

. . and i´m glad being able to pass on the knowledge to others. Which i did many times here - to be honest.

This is the problem. Yes, you have helped, but you're not helpful in general. You have strict criteria and if someone doesn't fit the bill, you don't help them and/or attempt to belittle them.

That´s the way it works. Childish behavior doesn´t work at all.

I am doing nothing more than telling the truth the way it is plain to me. I ask for no more out of any man.

You, on the other hand, are defensive and don't realize it.. and you call me childish?

This is a forum to (!)discuss(!) and (!)communicate(!) about APG and PTP. Us "old agers" :cool: are glad - i said it - to help others. And that´s usually working good! Any time you help somebody you learn more and more for yourself.

Well, to be honest, the only person I have something against here is you, Klaus. Like I said, Hans has never straightforwardly wronged me.

I also disagree that it has worked out well, because there seem to be a bunch of people on these forums who agree with me about your jerky methods.

But sometimes - we had it before - some people seem to feel "offended" already by hearing the truth - and the truth is: they simply made mistakes. They feel even more "offended" by being asked to *learn* from their mistakes
and why they occurred.

/facepalm

Klaus, I've explained this to you twice already, but just to make it crystal clear:

I am not offended by hearing the truth - I am offended by hearing giberish and being told that that's all I'm going to get.

I would love to learn from my mistakes, that is why I'm here. I simply cannot learn when you don't explain things to me in a manner in which I can understand.

If you came to [H]ardForum and asked me how to root the BIOS of your GTX 660 in order to over-volt it past its specified thermal envelope, I would EXPLAIN it to you in A WAY YOU CAN UNDERSTAND.

I would not give you a complex answer and then call you out for not understanding - which is precisely what you did!

I really don´t need to "show off and feel superior" - superior to whom??? You?

LOLWTFBBQ

Wow, this one is absolute gold. If the irony was any higher, this entire forum would likely collapse into an enormous black hole.

By saying "Superior to whom? You?" and laughing afterwards, you have done EXACTLY that - attempted to feel superior to me by laughing at the prospect of needing to feel superior to me.

But if this irony isn't obvious to you, then it's more than likely you're not really even aware that you're trying to feel superior.. and if you're not aware of the motives for your own actions.. how can I ever feel inferior to you?

[Track]

by Track » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:47 pm

Young man, you need to create control points between the adjoining photos, and then optimize.

An if that does not work first time, do it again, and again and again......made a pano with a motorized mount with shifting light and fog, haze, dust, spray (from anti-dust sprayers used about 200 meters under me)......it all in all took 12 hours of work to get it to a stage that I (< as in me) like it. What our young brash freind is asking is an easy fix, but easy fixes are not a part of the panorama shooting world. You are asking a camera to do something it was not intended for using software. That means you're in hardhat land no matter how great Kolor (or PTGui for that matter since I own both) build their software there will always be problems (we like to call them challanges). If you're prepared to deal with them and shave on your technique through a thing called experience....be my guest. If not well bugger of will you since quite frankly, easy fixes sometimes work but most of the time they kick you in the nuts elsewhere in the panorama. "yes now the fence stitches, but now the rest of panorama drops apart".....and if nothing else helps:

- use photoshop and correct the stitch error manually using some localised stretching, pulling and cloning, but as Klaus will surely say (ifhe's still reading this thread)....if you have to resort to that, update your technique......again, and again, and again.

Greets, Ed.

Listen, I can appreciate the complexity of this sub-facet of photography just fine. What I don't appreciate are people constantly telling me that I can't do this or that without reading this or that and somehow insinuating that I am less for it.

I'm not a power user. If what I need to have done cannot be done without having the background information, I'll accept that answer.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:38 pm

Enough...this thread is going nowhere.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:40 pm

Enough...this thread is going nowhere.

You name it.

Klaus

[Track]

by Track » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:46 pm

Enough...this thread is going nowhere.

You name it.

Klaus

Convenient for you, though. Now you don't have to respond

At the very least, read what I wrote and think about. You'll be better off that way.

Or, conversely, just don't reply to my future threads. That works doubly well for me.

Last edited by Track on Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:53 pm

If what I need to have done cannot be done without having the background information, I'll accept that answer.

Funny - that´s what i´m telling you for hours . . but i don´t have a feel you accept it.

Klaus

[Destiny]

by Destiny » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:34 am

If this thread continues as it is, it will be close... I remind you to be respectful in the way you communicate with each other please...

Destiny

[Track]

by Track » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:06 am

If what I need to have done cannot be done without having the background information, I'll accept that answer.

Funny - that´s what i´m telling you for hours . . but i don´t have a feel you accept it.

Klaus

Ooh!! So, that's what that mix of Giberish and broken English was..

*laughs*

And to think all we really needed was a translator..

[Destiny]

by Destiny » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:23 am

I advised you Tack that if you continued with this approach, your post would be closed. Personal insults and putdowns are a breach of the Forum rules.. I remind you of the fact that participating on this Forum, you are obliged to read them...

Destiny...