Freedom360 rig for sale....  

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mediavets
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Freedom360 rig for sale....

by mediavets » Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:34 am

I see that Bill Bailey - of Nodal Ninja - has a complete Fredom360 rig for sale, with free shipping worldwide:

http://www.panoguide.com/forums/classifieds/11191/?page=1#msg80438
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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Destiny
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by Destiny » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:25 am

If Bill Bailey is selling it secondhand, its a guarantee it will be in perfect condition. He would never sell dodgy stuff....

Saying that... I feel that the Freedom360 Rig is just soo expensive... I guess one reason is that there are 6 cameras.. Its a great idea.. but a very limited market...

I have the trial Autopano Video 1.0 software on my Mac but no video to test it with.... Therefore, having the trial of this software is a bit lost on me... I guess if someone came up with a much cheaper alternative to the 360 Rig, that would most certainly boost the sales of Autopano Video, putting this exciting new media into the ball park of affordability for huge numbers of keen photographers..

Destiny..
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by vincen » Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:00 am

Destiny wrote:Saying that... I feel that the Freedom360 Rig is just soo expensive... I guess one reason is that there are 6 cameras.. Its a great idea.. but a very limited market...

You can also use it in 5 cameras setup, which is perfect if you don't care about nadir or want to patch it with a logo ;)
Blog: http://www.skivr.com
My shop for panoramic photographs: http://magasin.skivr.com
Nodal Ninja 4 R-D16 on Benro Tripod + Ultimate R1 on Nodal Ninja P2 + Nikon D800 + Nikkor 10.5 + Nikkor 14/24 f/2.8 +Pentax 645D

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Joergen Geerds
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Re: Freedom360 rig for sale....

by Joergen Geerds » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:54 am

The current Hero3B dropped significantly in price, and/or is available used... Some of our Freedom360 users are considering selling sets of 6 H3B, or already have done so, so keeping an eye on the FB groups is always helpful... If I see the next set being offered, I can post it here.
As an alternative, join the IVRPA conference in Spring 2014 in Las Vegas, this will give you plenty of opportunity to play, and/or join the various local meetup groups in Australia talking about 360 video.

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Destiny
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Re: Freedom360 rig for sale....

by Destiny » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:54 am

I was kind of confused..

The Freedom360 Mount is a company nothing to do with the Hero cameras. Is this right. The cameras are made by GoPro..

I have seen the results of an arial pano captured using a single Hero camera.. The pano results were excellent.. It was suggested that the Phantom Quadcopter fitted with a GoPro mount and Hero camera were used...
http://www.camerastore.com.au/video-cam ... mount.html

To be honest I do not like the blue rubber type of housing.. I think in Australia that would have issues and I do not like the look of it either.. However, the Freedom360 Black Mount looks awesome, but at $500 its very expensive...

Then each Hero camera cost $430 each, X 6 = $2,580.... Thats a basic setup cost of over $3,000... Then there is the Kolor software costing between $300-$600 depending on which version.. The sales of the avp and agp are totally reliant on the sales of this hardware.... Perhaps I have totally underestimated the cost since here at the Kolor shop the hardware is 2660 Euro which equates to $3,764 Aus.. + software.. eeeks..!!....
http://www.kolor.com/buy/photo-hardware ... pro6n.html

There is no doubting that all this hardware and software is wold-class and from what I have seen it produces excellent results.. The issue I see, most users of Pano software are hobbyist.. I would love a Freedome360 with a set of 6 Hero cameras but.. as a hobbyist it's not justified in me buying it.. As for professionals.... the market I would suggest would be very limited..

I have heaps of ideas I would love to test out using this rig.. but my ideas and actually having the opportunity to implement them are so far removed due to the cost of it all.. I guess its all aimed at the professional market...

The way I see it.. The concept is great, however its the cost of this hardware which will open the door to others creating a more affordable rig in time... Perhaps it might be an all in one 6 lens Hero camera.. ;)

Destiny..

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Re: Freedom360 rig for sale....

by klausesser » Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:46 pm

Destiny wrote:I was kind of confused..
The Freedom360 Mount is a company nothing to do with the Hero cameras. Is this right. The cameras are made by GoPro..


This is well known - where´s the problem? ;)

Destiny wrote:I have seen the results of an arial pano captured using a single Hero camera.. The pano results were excellent.. It was suggested that the Phantom Quadcopter fitted with a GoPro mount and Hero camera were used...
http://www.camerastore.com.au/video-cam ... mount.html


No 360x180° video - of course not: you need 5 - 6 cameras for a sphere. Can´t see the video: "This video is private".

Destiny wrote:To be honest I do not like the blue rubber type of housing..


It´s not designed for putting it on a sideboard for decoration i guess . . . =D Who cares about the color??
Better judge gadgets by their features - not by their look . . . ;)

Destiny wrote:The way I see it.. The concept is great, however its the cost of this hardware which will open the door to others creating a more affordable rig in time... Perhaps it might be an all in one 6 lens Hero camera.. ;)


The real question is:
who is willing to pay appropriately for the resulting videos?
I guess nobody would like to give away a 360x180° video for free. I guess nobody would produce such a video for some few bucks.

So the most important point is: where are the clients for 360x180° video? What price can i ask for a well made 360x180° video?

It´s quite obiviously not a quick and dirty thing to produce - so it needs to earn a good price! Who pays appropriate money for the effort of
buying the hard-/software and producing excellent results?

I mean: it´s really nice . . . but: cui bono?

Klaus

PS - we see that some months after the Hero3 was released there now is a Hero3+ . . . providing better features.
Given i´d bought a set of 6 Hero3 Black when they came out: i´m sure i´d feel some kind of pissed . . . wouldn´t i.

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Re: Freedom360 rig for sale....

by Joergen Geerds » Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:45 pm

Destiny wrote:However, the Freedom360 Black Mount looks awesome, but at $500 its very expensive...

Then each Hero camera cost $430 each, X 6 = $2,580.... Thats a basic setup cost of over $3,000... Then there is the Kolor software costing between $300-$600 depending on which version.. The sales of the avp and agp are totally reliant on the sales of this hardware.... Perhaps I have totally underestimated the cost since here at the Kolor shop the hardware is 2660 Euro which equates to $3,764 Aus.. + software.. eeeks..!!.... The issue I see, most users of Pano software are hobbyist.. I would love a Freedome360 with a set of 6 Hero cameras but.. as a hobbyist it's not justified in me buying it.. As for professionals.... the market I would suggest would be very limited.
I have heaps of ideas I would love to test out using this rig.. but my ideas and actually having the opportunity to implement them are so far removed due to the cost of it all.. I guess its all aimed at the professional market.


Hello,
first of all, we chose black for the Freedom360 to allow to use the rig in a professional environment, where it is important to not cast any custom colors (i.e. a red ladybug system would be a red spot in a scene), and to be as neutral/invisible as anyhow possible... We have users who even removed the front alu plate of the GoPro, and painted them matte black, and put them back, just to make the F360 even less visible on stage or during a 360 video in public (the cameras are usually in stealth mode as well, LED and sound is turned off). (the same reason why almost any piece of pro photo/video/rigging equipment is black.)

If you consider the price for the mount, it represents only 10% of the total price for the complete system (cameras, memory cards, software etc etc). Plus, it is going to work nicely until gopro decides to drastically change the form factor of the cameras, so we are looking at a couple of years of use at the moment.

but you are right, the system is aimed at the pro user as an additional tool/component for their ladybug system, as well as the ambitious amateur turning pro wanting to explore this new field... it is priced at the same level as a new Nikon D800e plus lens, which many have bought without much hesitation. The material you get out of the Freedom360 very much justifies the investment, and it is up to all of us to create a market for 360 video, very similar as the emerging market of VR panoramas 10 years ago.

Joergen Geerds
http://freedom360.us

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Re: Freedom360 rig for sale....

by Destiny » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:37 pm

Hi Joergen..

I guess the key is to find strategies to create a market for 360 video - Easy said than done.. Here in Australia we live close to Brisbane City so we are close to the big-end of trade and commerce, yet we have struggled to gain a foot-hold in selling even normal Virtual Tours.. There seems to be bitter memories of those rather horrible VR attempts during the early years of this technology but they also do not seem to see value in this new-media.. For this reason we bought a Samsung Note so we have the option to showcase our Virtual Tours first-hand with potential clients.. PTP V2 is just awesome and most certainly has opened up many opportunities to further develop and provide value to clients for using Virtual Tours.. We have created many freebees to entice clients to use VR Tours in their web sites and provide value in having them.. We spent a heap of time capturing and creating really nice VR Tours for a very big Caravan and Motor-Homes company who sell their products for way over $500,000, yet they were more than happy to use some el'cheap'o VR Tours created using free software and captured using a mobile phone..

The issue we have with 360 Video are far greater.. Our internet speed where we live is not too bad considering our area yet we struggle to view a 360 video.. There is a National Broadband being built in Australia which has issues and will not be rolled out in our area for a few more years... 360 Video totally realise on high speed fast broadband... Many countries in the world sadly lack in this.. Countries like England, USA and Australia.. Its all very well having a great technology but it has to be able to be viewed by the end users... Using our Samsung Note to view 360 video is not an option. It simply does not work, even in Brisbane city... So how do we showcase 360 Video with the aim to promote this new technology...

In my opinion, creating a technology aimed at the pro user is a mistake.. The driver for sales with most of the Kolor software is without a doubt the amateur photographer, who may turn pro in time if enough work becomes available.. Therefore there would be very few amateurs embracing this 360 video technology due to the high start-up cost and the uncertainties in being able to make any kind of income from it, with the aim in turing pro at some strange.. The cost I would suggest was far too high for most amateurs, which will be the major obstacle in promoting this technology in a more global manner, since there would be very limited examples to showcase and to learn from..

If the main user for this technology has always been the aimed at the pro users, then the Kolor software is far too cheap.. As I see it, its aimed at the amateur user, which is affordable.. However, the hardware that is required to bring it all together is way out of the reach of many..

To draw a comparison between the cost of a D800 is a bit iffy.. My D800 for me, has far more use than a 360 video rig setup would ever have.. For this technology to really take off, the driving force would have to be the amateur.. Therefore their needs to be an option to purchase affordable hardware to make this possible.. This will then drive the sales of the Kolor software...

Destiny...

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Re: Freedom360 rig for sale....

by klausesser » Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:58 pm

Destiny wrote:In my opinion, creating a technology aimed at the pro user is a mistake..


No - it´s not. There are famous brands you most likely have never heard of who are in this business and making much money.
Some of them also have a range of amateur-products and make money in this range - that does not contradict itself.

It´s quite obvious that very specialized hardware is expensive - i use a fluid-head for video-cameras from Sachtler that cost about 3500.-$ - adding the tripod itself you come close to 8-10000.-$ for tripod/head. Add about 40000.-$ for the camera and you´re in. That´s normal in the production business. Usually producers rent this stuff for the time they produce.

Viewed from that angle the price for a GoPro-rig really is very low. And compared to apps like Smoke, Nuke or familiar ones the price for the Kolor-apps is very low too.

The slow connection in the surrounding you are living can´t be taken to judge the meaning of the technology. Contet-producers are located in regions with more advanced infrastructures.
When somebody wants to be a part of the business it´s clear he/she needs to move to one of the major cities "where the action is".

The REAL problem is: we all need to establish a commercial "sense" for this technology for clients first . . . :cool: This will only work when everything in the production-chain works well and fluent without issues and when it can earn the client an advantages.

Actually many potential clients are looking how to integrate this technology into their businesses - it´s like a car which is looking for a street to ride on and a place to ride to . . =D :cool:

I´m sure Joergen knows very well what i mean . . . ;) :cool:

Klaus

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Re: Freedom360 rig for sale....

by klausesser » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:24 am

Joergen Geerds wrote:. . and it is up to all of us to create a market for 360 video, very similar as the emerging market of VR panoramas 10 years ago.


Hey man! :cool:

This is quite a point: a not yet existent market . .

Regarding the market for VR: it´s very hard to lift it up to a state it´s attractive for high-level producers asking high-level prices for high-level products.
"Classical" clients - advertising agencies, magazins for example - don´t take it real serious because it´s a market flooded with poorly made amateurish-productions.
Magazins pay about 300.-€ for a single pano - that´s really poor. And only well-named magazines are interesting to produce for because they´re good reputation.

It´s rather hard to convince big clients that it´s possible to make it in a better way as they watch it on the web every day. So VR has a bit of a "bad taste" for them.
We´re working against this trend for some years now and could demonstrate clients that this all CAN BE more than a stupid haunt for "Giggapixels" or quick-and-dirty cheapo panos for the pizza guy or the figaro next door . . . .

When i think about 360° video . . . what comes to my mind spontaneously is: newspaper´s and magzine´s online versions, news media in general . . .

The problem is: you only can make appropriate money when you spread your content wide - which means kind of runnung around shooting sensations: big fires, floods, plane crashes or whatever. A concert from time to time . . maybe . . =D

Is that what we´d like to do?

Not me. :p

So as you said: we need to CREATE a market!

best to you, Klaus

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Re: Freedom360 rig for sale....

by Artisan New » Wed Oct 23, 2013 11:58 am

Klaus your 100% right about this one. It's almost like a 3D printer for the house. Nice thought, you can build one for about 400 euro (if you are smart and can use a screwdriver and a hacksaw). Buy for the ordinary household? Not interresting really, allthough fun........VR Video in a pro-market, don't think so (for at least a decade), it consumes bandwith like crazy and when the gimmick is gone.....remember a director and a cameraman/men direct the camera(s) to something worth while seeing and edit afterwards. Now you can do that yourself, big deal. So in fact your actually having to input work.......and get less work in return.

But for the house yes.....also good fun. But then the price has to come down, by at least a factor 5. And then you can stop worrying about slight color problems as well.

Greets, Ed.

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Re: Freedom360 rig for sale....

by vincen » Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:31 pm

Artisan New wrote:Klaus your 100% right about this one.

+1, very clear and good explanations Klaus :)

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Re: Freedom360 rig for sale....

by Destiny » Sun Oct 27, 2013 2:30 am

Some guy used what I assume was the DJI Phantom Quadcopter with GoPro Mounted to capture some of the NSW bush fires, you can see it in some of the ground shadows. The quality of the video using a GoPro is just awesome. The 360 pano's I have seen on the VIP Room using this rig are awesome too.. They might be expensive to buy 6 for 360 video but a single GoPro cameras is affordable and they most defiantly produce high quality video media..

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/201 ... ed-lithgow

Very very scary time... We think its going to be a real shocker with bush fires this year.. We have had no rain for months.. Grass is brown and very dry.. I can see the DJI Phantom Quadcopter with GoPro Mounted would have great value.. Floods one year and Fires the next.. We had some friends in NSW tell us that some US company gave their town some money to rebuild. It can never be forgotten the generosity of others in times of disaster.. We will never forget the generosity of Bill Bailey of Nodal Ninja after our floods in our town of Ipswich..

For a setup cost of $769 for Quadcopter, plus one GoPro at $430, I feel this rig is very affordable and very good value for what it can do and would suggest have a market for both amateur and pro... I would just use Premiere Pro or Final Cut to process the video..

As for buying 6 cameras + housing... I will leave that lot to the pro's...

Destiny..


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