vklaffehn wrote:Hi!
I'm a bit afraid to post something in this emotionally explosive thread, but ...
I have 102 images (8MP JPEG, from Powershot a90is), it's 34 positions with 3 images at every position. On my main PC (Intel I5, 32GB RAM, Win7 64bit) I can throw them into APG, create stacks of 3, and hit detect at default settings with no problem. Klicking the fusion symbol gives a red border and a moving circle top left. After a few seconds the moving circle disappears and the border turns green, then I can tick the 'fusion' box on the left and play with those sliders, reaction time a few seconds, calculating indicated by this moving circle in the top left.
Doing the same on a Core2Duo 1,2GHz with 3GB RAM lets me doing the detection fine, but clicking the fusion symbol gives me a crash. So I think there is a problem, when not enough resources avaialbel, which maybe could be detected by APG.
Funny note : Even with identical detection settings, I get a RMS of 2.09 on the I5 and 2.30 on the Core2Duo.......
Tried with brand new APG 3.0.7.
Artisan New wrote:Klaus,
Do yourself a favour and don't go into a discussion about software bugs with me......I was a testengineer, testcoà¶rdinator and testmanager until discussions about bugs got me so frustrated that I quit. What consists of as a bug is far from striaghtforward but if some users don't understand how to use your interface, that is considered a major problem at least. Every last testing stage is the UAT (User Acceptance Test). In which users are confronted with the software (using all the information the normal user would have at their disposal). If a user can operate the software in a way that seems logical but will produce undesired results, any software company has a problem. No software is idiot proof but they all should thrive to be, since we are at some point all idiots and novices.
Greets, Ed.
vklaffehn wrote:Hi!
I'm a bit afraid to post something in this emotionally explosive thread, but ...
marzipano wrote:Destiny wrote:This a long video live as it happens for me.. if you do not want to watch paint dry, skip to the last two minutes..
http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/APGexposureweights/raw.html
You will see my issue.. I am sure I am doiang all processes correctly..
Destiny..
I just checked on your vid (required install of Apple Quicktime) and I now think I know exactly what the problem is !
I'm not going to call it a bug or else I will have Klaus on to me again but it is an undocumented feature
Look at your last 2 minutes where you call up the Fusion screen - it's the same issue as with the 60 tif files from an earlier post I made
the border round the screen has gone red and not green - that means EF hasn't worked properly which is probably why you are getting rubbish results from Hans' pano file
APG should stop at this point with a proper error panel as the next hour of renedering is going to be a waste of time as no fusion has been done
It is a memory limit problem I would imagine and I can replicate it on my PC which also "only" has 4GB (not the 61GB needed apparently)
best
Martin
** edit** I have a screen shot from Destiny's video showing where this green border should appear in the fusion process
klausesser wrote:Artisan New wrote:Klaus,
Do yourself a favour and don't go into a discussion about software bugs with me......I was a testengineer, testcoà¶rdinator and testmanager until discussions about bugs got me so frustrated that I quit. What consists of as a bug is far from striaghtforward but if some users don't understand how to use your interface, that is considered a major problem at least. Every last testing stage is the UAT (User Acceptance Test). In which users are confronted with the software (using all the information the normal user would have at their disposal). If a user can operate the software in a way that seems logical but will produce undesired results, any software company has a problem. No software is idiot proof but they all should thrive to be, since we are at some point all idiots and novices.
Greets, Ed.
Ed - this is redundant speculation. Only Kolor could enlighten the facts
Klaus
klausesser wrote:I verified it several times: fusioning DOES work in APG - even with around 80 images - using appropriate hardware.
Klaus
mediavets wrote:klausesser wrote:Artisan New wrote:Klaus,
Do yourself a favour and don't go into a discussion about software bugs with me......I was a testengineer, testcoà¶rdinator and testmanager until discussions about bugs got me so frustrated that I quit. What consists of as a bug is far from striaghtforward but if some users don't understand how to use your interface, that is considered a major problem at least. Every last testing stage is the UAT (User Acceptance Test). In which users are confronted with the software (using all the information the normal user would have at their disposal). If a user can operate the software in a way that seems logical but will produce undesired results, any software company has a problem. No software is idiot proof but they all should thrive to be, since we are at some point all idiots and novices.
Greets, Ed.
Ed - this is redundant speculation. Only Kolor could enlighten the facts
Klaus
And I wish they would!
We have established there's an 'issue' here - so let's have some answers.
marzipano wrote:Destiny wrote:This a long video live as it happens for me.. if you do not want to watch paint dry, skip to the last two minutes..
http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/APGexposureweights/raw.html
You will see my issue.. I am sure I am doiang all processes correctly..
Destiny..
I just checked on your vid (required install of Apple Quicktime) and I now think I know exactly what the problem is !
I'm not going to call it a bug or else I will have Klaus on to me again but it is an undocumented feature
Look at your last 2 minutes where you call up the Fusion screen - it's the same issue as with the 60 tif files from an earlier post I made
the border round the screen has gone red and not green - that means EF hasn't worked properly which is probably why you are getting rubbish results from Hans' pano file
APG should stop at this point with a proper error panel as the next hour of renedering is going to be a waste of time as no fusion has been done
It is a memory limit problem I would imagine and I can replicate it on my PC which also "only" has 4GB (not the 61GB needed apparently)
best
Martin
** edit** I have a screen shot from Destiny's video showing where this green border should appear in the fusion process
vklaffehn wrote:....
@Hans: outputting an error would be nice, because then you can see what maybe the problem. I had crashes because of corrupt input images, of incorrect number of pictures selected for a plugin (long fixed), not enough memory...
how would I know that I can edit something containg 40 images, but not 50 on my machine? Maybe Kolor (or someone else) could give guidelines, how many resources are needed for a certain number of images with a specific resolution? Without error or warning I can only guess the problem.
HansKeesom wrote:Maybe kolor can use this to build in a kind of indicator that goes from green to red when the set of photos and chosen settings are challeging for the configuration available. Personally I would find it a waiste of time and energy but if it works for others....
It might be to dry stuff to read but reading the following thread can help to make things run much more smoothly, one just need to put the energy into it : http://www.kolor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=12117&p=1
It is like making photos with your camera, at a certain point you need to read up a bit on focus length, diafragma, focus depth, shutter time......
mediavets wrote:klausesser wrote:I verified it several times: fusioning DOES work in APG - even with around 80 images - using appropriate hardware.
Klaus
If it's so wonderful why don't you use it?
mediavets wrote:There are at least three related issues under discussion:
1. Exposure fusion frequently doesn't work at all on lower end system configurations.
mediavets wrote:2. It's not considered to be very usable even on higher end configurations even by expert users of APG. Consequently they have typically resorted to using other software to perform exposure fusion, usually Photomatix.
mediavets wrote:3. Users who've resorted to using Photomatix to pre-process their bracketed exposure image sets before stitching with APG report that APG doesn't stitch such image sets as well as PTGui does.
mediavets wrote:HansKeesom wrote:Maybe kolor can use this to build in a kind of indicator that goes from green to red when the set of photos and chosen settings are challeging for the configuration available. Personally I would find it a waiste of time and energy but if it works for others....
It might be to dry stuff to read but reading the following thread can help to make things run much more smoothly, one just need to put the energy into it : http://www.kolor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=12117&p=1
It is like making photos with your camera, at a certain point you need to read up a bit on focus length, diafragma, focus depth, shutter time......
True...BUT Kolor's main pitch with their stitching prgrams has been the AUTO aspect of Autopano Pro and Autopano Giga... this (at one time anyway) differentiated APP and APG from the major competition (I believe it's called PT-something) and should not be lost sight of.
Someone once described Autopano Pro and Giga as stitching software for photographers, whilst PTGui was stitching software for engineers.
It seems as if APP and APG are now at risk of also becoming stitching programs for engineers.
klausesser wrote:mediavets wrote:klausesser wrote:I verified it several times: fusioning DOES work in APG - even with around 80 images - using appropriate hardware.
Klaus
If it's so wonderful why don't you use it?
I said: it works. I didn´t say it works good enough for me. In fact it's ok - but it´s uncomfortable in use and not easy reproducable.
So i dont´t like it under producing conditions. Using it under non-prucucer´s conditions i guess it´s fully ok!
THAT was what i said, Andrew.
HansKeesom wrote:This whole discussion is about the fact that when you have a relative small computer you are not gonna be able to make use of all these options.
I can fully understand that some photographers are not able/willing to buy themselves a large enough computer to process panoramas easily and fast. But don't blame Kolor for that, it is something they are not responsible for.
vklaffehn wrote:For example I can get a HDR or tonemapped panorama when using photomatix and APG, but not using APG alone on the same hardware.
klausesser wrote:What makes me really angry - statements are given, basing on the opinion of ONE or TWO rather unexperienced users . . . . and then the word is spread that "APG has issues with Photoatix-processd images" . . .
Other - also unexperienced (sorry) - users spread the word further . .
What´s the result? i sit together with some photographers, we´re talking about stitchers, talk about stitching and HDR . . and i hear from two newbies that "well, APG has issues with Photomatix-processed images so i think better buying PTGui because THIS one can handle processed HDR well" . . . .
Would you think that THIS could be in Kolor´s interest? I don´t think so!
I mean there are people who definitely talk too much nonsense, sorry again. These people can damage a product´s reputation. Damaging a product´s reputation WITHOUT basing on HARD AND PROVEN FACTS is not respectable.
mediavets wrote:klausesser wrote:mediavets wrote:If it's so wonderful why don't you use it?
I said: it works. I didn´t say it works good enough for me. In fact it's ok - but it´s uncomfortable in use and not easy reproducable.
So i dont´t like it under producing conditions. Using it under non-prucucer´s conditions i guess it´s fully ok!
THAT was what i said, Andrew.
So not good enough for you...but good enough for the 'rest of us', eh?
So that's all right then?
Elitism is alive and well in Dusseldorf.
mediavets wrote:The fact that it's (in your words) "uncomfortable in use and not easy reproducable" shouldn't be of any concern to the "rest of us" and Kolor need not concern themselves about it?
mediavets wrote:klausesser wrote:What makes me really angry - statements are given, basing on the opinion of ONE or TWO rather unexperienced users . . . . and then the word is spread that "APG has issues with Photoatix-processd images" . . .
Why should you get angry - it's not your problem is it? Why do you feel an obligation to defend Kolor, are they not capable of defending themselves?
mediavets wrote:so why is no-one from Kolor here to state their case? That's all I'm trying to enourage really.
mediavets wrote:I mean there are people who definitely talk too much nonsense, sorry again. These people can damage a product´s reputation. Damaging a product´s reputation WITHOUT basing on HARD AND PROVEN FACTS is not respectable.
And simply dismissing the opinions and reports of others as baseless is no way to defend a product's reputation either.
Destiny wrote:APG 3.0.7 seemed to load my images quicker but sadly as Martin pointed out... When the boarder is red, fusion is disabled.. I will have to experiment to see just how big I can make my images for the fusion process to work.. I will have to do this in Photoshop, which is fine, I can just create a macro for this... I also tested the RAW images again but again I get pink in the lights.. I have no idea why this would happen.... I will capture a new test pano over the weekend under better light this time..
As my title of this thread suggests, back to basics, so I again I go back to basics... I really appreciated the help and advice from Andrews, Hans, Martin, Ed and Volker for your very valuable insight into this issue.. I have realised so many things.. Hans, my husband is going to set the link up so I can play on your awesome computer... Its far enough away not to get any radiation from it.. What do we need to do... I will recored it for other so see it as it happens.. We do not have audio working.. for some reason its died.. I think I stuffed it up.... So I hope you do not need that...
Destiny...
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