APG 3+ back to basics.... HOW TO USE IT? 2  

Share your tips and tricks here or get help with any Panotour problem!
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by vklaffehn » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:54 pm

Hi!
I'm a bit afraid to post something in this emotionally explosive thread, but ...

I have 102 images (8MP JPEG, from Powershot a90is), it's 34 positions with 3 images at every position. On my main PC (Intel I5, 32GB RAM, Win7 64bit) I can throw them into APG, create stacks of 3, and hit detect at default settings with no problem. Klicking the fusion symbol gives a red border and a moving circle top left. After a few seconds the moving circle disappears and the border turns green, then I can tick the 'fusion' box on the left and play with those sliders, reaction time a few seconds, calculating indicated by this moving circle in the top left.

Doing the same on a Core2Duo 1,2GHz with 3GB RAM lets me doing the detection fine, but clicking the fusion symbol gives me a crash. So I think there is a problem, when not enough resources avaialbel, which maybe could be detected by APG.

Funny note : Even with identical detection settings, I get a RMS of 2.09 on the I5 and 2.30 on the Core2Duo.......

Tried with brand new APG 3.0.7.

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by marzipano » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:10 pm

vklaffehn wrote:Hi!
I'm a bit afraid to post something in this emotionally explosive thread, but ...

I have 102 images (8MP JPEG, from Powershot a90is), it's 34 positions with 3 images at every position. On my main PC (Intel I5, 32GB RAM, Win7 64bit) I can throw them into APG, create stacks of 3, and hit detect at default settings with no problem. Klicking the fusion symbol gives a red border and a moving circle top left. After a few seconds the moving circle disappears and the border turns green, then I can tick the 'fusion' box on the left and play with those sliders, reaction time a few seconds, calculating indicated by this moving circle in the top left.

Doing the same on a Core2Duo 1,2GHz with 3GB RAM lets me doing the detection fine, but clicking the fusion symbol gives me a crash. So I think there is a problem, when not enough resources avaialbel, which maybe could be detected by APG.

Funny note : Even with identical detection settings, I get a RMS of 2.09 on the I5 and 2.30 on the Core2Duo.......

Tried with brand new APG 3.0.7.

See my post 3 up from the bottom of page 5 describing this problem

If the border doesn't go green then fusion has failed

since we can't process 60 images with 4GB RAM, I don't feel very optimistic on your chances with 102 images and 3GB !! (even for jpg's)

Martin

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by klausesser » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:19 pm

Artisan New wrote:Klaus,

Do yourself a favour and don't go into a discussion about software bugs with me :)......I was a testengineer, testcoà¶rdinator and testmanager until discussions about bugs got me so frustrated that I quit. What consists of as a bug is far from striaghtforward but if some users don't understand how to use your interface, that is considered a major problem at least. Every last testing stage is the UAT (User Acceptance Test). In which users are confronted with the software (using all the information the normal user would have at their disposal). If a user can operate the software in a way that seems logical but will produce undesired results, any software company has a problem. No software is idiot proof but they all should thrive to be, since we are at some point all idiots and novices.

Greets, Ed.

Ed - this is redundant speculation. Only Kolor could enlighten the facts.

But we definitely can state that this "bug" doesn´t exist when sufficient amount or RAM is used. So it´s also clear that IF you want to use the feature in APG you NEED more RAM to have it run.

Is that a"bug"? No, not al all. You also wouldn´t handle 12-GB images in Photoshop with 2 GB Ram in your machine, would you.

You also wouldn´t expect to win Monte Carlo driving a Lada.

And so on.

The FACTS are quite obvious. Solutions, workarounds were suggested. Why holding on to something that obviously does not work due to also obvious technical reasons and complaining about "bugs"??

Don´t you also think it harms a software´s reputation claiming it has "bugs" - instead of realizing it´s the own limitations which leads to this shortcomig?

I verified it several times: fusioning DOES work in APG - even with around 80 images - using appropriate hardware.

So: it doesnt´t matter for me whether you are or were a testmamager or whatever. Facts count.

Klaus
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by klausesser » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:22 pm

vklaffehn wrote:Hi!
I'm a bit afraid to post something in this emotionally explosive thread, but ...

Why is this "emotionally explosive"? It´s just time-consumpting . . . :cool:

best, Klaus
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by HansKeesom » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:36 pm

marzipano wrote:
Destiny wrote:This a long video live as it happens for me.. if you do not want to watch paint dry, skip to the last two minutes..

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/APGexposureweights/raw.html

You will see my issue.. I am sure I am doiang all processes correctly..

Destiny..

I just checked on your vid (required install of Apple Quicktime) and I now think I know exactly what the problem is !

I'm not going to call it a bug or else I will have Klaus on to me again but it is an undocumented feature

Look at your last 2 minutes where you call up the Fusion screen - it's the same issue as with the 60 tif files from an earlier post I made

the border round the screen has gone red and not green - that means EF hasn't worked properly which is probably why you are getting rubbish results from Hans' pano file

APG should stop at this point with a proper error panel as the next hour of renedering is going to be a waste of time as no fusion has been done

It is a memory limit problem I would imagine and I can replicate it on my PC which also "only" has 4GB (not the 61GB needed apparently :( )

best
Martin

** edit** I have a screen shot from Destiny's video showing where this green border should appear in the fusion process

Thank you Martin for doing this detailed analisys. It confirms what I was thinking, a shortage of RAM.

Rest asure the 61 GB was only used because it was available. APG takes it when it is there, but can do with less then 64 GB. Same panoram rendered on a 16 GB machine.

No surprise hoewever I got a green border on Destiny's panorama...

Makes me think about the experiments I did with virtual machines in the cloud. Costs are around 75 euro a month plus 50 euro a day that the VM is actually used so not cheap but an solution when a big real computer is out of the question.

Of course, people are still welcome to dropbox their photos to me for a quick detection and rendering. When I have the time I will even do some editing to get rid of some stitchingbugs.
Last edited by HansKeesom on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:55 pm

klausesser wrote:
Artisan New wrote:Klaus,

Do yourself a favour and don't go into a discussion about software bugs with me :)......I was a testengineer, testcoà¶rdinator and testmanager until discussions about bugs got me so frustrated that I quit. What consists of as a bug is far from striaghtforward but if some users don't understand how to use your interface, that is considered a major problem at least. Every last testing stage is the UAT (User Acceptance Test). In which users are confronted with the software (using all the information the normal user would have at their disposal). If a user can operate the software in a way that seems logical but will produce undesired results, any software company has a problem. No software is idiot proof but they all should thrive to be, since we are at some point all idiots and novices.

Greets, Ed.

Ed - this is redundant speculation. Only Kolor could enlighten the facts
Klaus

And I wish they would!

We have established there's an 'issue' here - so let's have some answers.
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:04 pm

klausesser wrote:I verified it several times: fusioning DOES work in APG - even with around 80 images - using appropriate hardware.

Klaus

If it's so wonderful why don't you use it?
.............

There are at least three related issues under discussion:

1. Exposure fusion frequently doesn't work at all on lower end system configurations.

2. It's not considered to be very usable even on higher end configurations even by expert users of APG. Consequently they have typically resorted to using other software to perform exposure fusion, usually Photomatix.

3. Users who've resorted to using Photomatix to pre-process their bracketed exposure image sets before stitching with APG report that APG doesn't stitch such image sets as well as PTGui does.
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by HansKeesom » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:08 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:
Artisan New wrote:Klaus,

Do yourself a favour and don't go into a discussion about software bugs with me :)......I was a testengineer, testcoà¶rdinator and testmanager until discussions about bugs got me so frustrated that I quit. What consists of as a bug is far from striaghtforward but if some users don't understand how to use your interface, that is considered a major problem at least. Every last testing stage is the UAT (User Acceptance Test). In which users are confronted with the software (using all the information the normal user would have at their disposal). If a user can operate the software in a way that seems logical but will produce undesired results, any software company has a problem. No software is idiot proof but they all should thrive to be, since we are at some point all idiots and novices.

Greets, Ed.

Ed - this is redundant speculation. Only Kolor could enlighten the facts
Klaus

And I wish they would!

We have established there's an 'issue' here - so let's have some answers.

Not for me, I think it is behavior as it can be expected and good enough for me. I hope Kolor does not put any resources on it because there is nothing to be solved.
Last edited by HansKeesom on Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by vklaffehn » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:23 pm

Well, I have to agree that at least APG should give an error if something does not work, so the user will know that there's a problem. Just doing nothing is annoying, and just crashing also :-)
My eventlog gives an errorcode pointing to a heap corruption.

@Hans: outputting an error would be nice, because then you can see what maybe the problem. I had crashes because of corrupt input images, of incorrect number of pictures selected for a plugin (long fixed), not enough memory...
how would I know that I can edit something containg 40 images, but not 50 on my machine? Maybe Kolor (or someone else) could give guidelines, how many resources are needed for a certain number of images with a specific resolution? Without error or warning I can only guess the problem.

@klausesser : for me it's interesting to read, I read all pages!! ;-)

@marzipano : I did not really expect to get it working fine on my toshiba R600, but I wasn't expecting it just to crash. It crashes before I could even see the red border, looks like its crashing while loading the images into the editor, I don't have to click anything, just wait. Something like an 'out of memory' would just be more pleasant. That's why I have my i5 32GB Ram for APG, no problems there :-)
MfG
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Last edited by vklaffehn on Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by Destiny » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:12 pm

Yes Martin.. But I think RAW has some other colour issues. I think I have gone way past the limit of what I can do fusion in APG.. I used a DX Fisheye lens so thats cropped the images size and I also set my D800 to Small.... Its obvious that I will not be able to use my images in APG for fusion with my current hardware..

I really appreciated your feedback.. I think you are 100% right... I will give up on this now...

Destiny...

marzipano wrote:
Destiny wrote:This a long video live as it happens for me.. if you do not want to watch paint dry, skip to the last two minutes..

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/APGexposureweights/raw.html

You will see my issue.. I am sure I am doiang all processes correctly..

Destiny..

I just checked on your vid (required install of Apple Quicktime) and I now think I know exactly what the problem is !

I'm not going to call it a bug or else I will have Klaus on to me again but it is an undocumented feature

Look at your last 2 minutes where you call up the Fusion screen - it's the same issue as with the 60 tif files from an earlier post I made

the border round the screen has gone red and not green - that means EF hasn't worked properly which is probably why you are getting rubbish results from Hans' pano file

APG should stop at this point with a proper error panel as the next hour of renedering is going to be a waste of time as no fusion has been done

It is a memory limit problem I would imagine and I can replicate it on my PC which also "only" has 4GB (not the 61GB needed apparently :( )

best
Martin

** edit** I have a screen shot from Destiny's video showing where this green border should appear in the fusion process
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by HansKeesom » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:53 pm

vklaffehn wrote:....

@Hans: outputting an error would be nice, because then you can see what maybe the problem. I had crashes because of corrupt input images, of incorrect number of pictures selected for a plugin (long fixed), not enough memory...
how would I know that I can edit something containg 40 images, but not 50 on my machine? Maybe Kolor (or someone else) could give guidelines, how many resources are needed for a certain number of images with a specific resolution? Without error or warning I can only guess the problem.

It is not always possible to exactly predict or describe whether a certain set of photos will or will not compute given a certain configuration. It all depends what is in the pictures, on the options one chooses, like anti-ghost and even then it depends for example on cache division settings one uses. If one takes the time to look at the edit-settings menu there is lot one can learn and solved.

Still the proof is only in the pudding. And when you get an error on your screen you know went to far.

However as I already indicated earlier in this thread one can rather easily predict whether, how or not a set of photos will work on your computer. See http://www.kolor.com/forum/p119233-2013-07-23-00-18-35#p119233

Maybe kolor can use this to build in a kind of indicator that goes from green to red when the set of photos and chosen settings are challeging for the configuration available. Personally I would find it a waiste of time and energy but if it works for others....

It might be to dry stuff to read but reading the following thread can help to make things run much more smoothly, one just need to put the energy into it : http://www.kolor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=12117&p=1

It is like making photos with your camera, at a certain point you need to read up a bit on focus length, diafragma, focus depth, shutter time......
Last edited by HansKeesom on Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by mediavets » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:09 pm

HansKeesom wrote:Maybe kolor can use this to build in a kind of indicator that goes from green to red when the set of photos and chosen settings are challeging for the configuration available. Personally I would find it a waiste of time and energy but if it works for others....

It might be to dry stuff to read but reading the following thread can help to make things run much more smoothly, one just need to put the energy into it : http://www.kolor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=12117&p=1

It is like making photos with your camera, at a certain point you need to read up a bit on focus length, diafragma, focus depth, shutter time......

True...BUT Kolor's main pitch with their stitching prgrams has been the AUTO aspect of Autopano Pro and Autopano Giga... this (at one time anyway) differentiated APP and APG from the major competition (I believe it's called PT-something) and should not be lost sight of.

Someone once described Autopano Pro and Giga as stitching software for photographers, whilst PTGui was stitching software for engineers.

It seems as if APP and APG are now at risk of also becoming stitching programs for engineers.
Andrew Stephens
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by vklaffehn » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:13 pm

@Hans :

Yes, I see what you mean, but looking at that from a (amatuer) programmer site, I think something like that should happen in the software :

Load images -> image corrupt -> give error 'image corrupt'

Load images -> decompress for checkpoint detection -> request RAM -> OS says 'no more there' -> give error 'not enough ram for loading all images'

same as above without error -> do some fusion magic -> request more RAM -> OS says 'no more there' -> give error 'not enough ram for fusion'

It's just a style of coding, if you request a resource from the operating system, check if everything went ok and dont just think it worked.

If you have some experience with APG and knowledge what will happen behind the scenes, it might be obvious that certain things can only be done on certain hardware, but if you new to it and rely on the 'Auto' in the name, it might be frustrating, even more if you have the impression that your hardware can handle your work because other software might seem to do the things I want. For example I can get a HDR or tonemapped panorama when using photomatix and APG, but not using APG alone on the same hardware.

So I can understand Destiny's point and your point.

So if my Lada wont start, I can at least see that there's no fuel in the tank, and if I'm overtaken by a sports car, I can see that my Lada speedometer shows only 80 KM/h (at least I think so, never drove a Lada :-) ), so I have at least an indicator where the problem is.
MfG
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Last edited by vklaffehn on Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:05 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:I verified it several times: fusioning DOES work in APG - even with around 80 images - using appropriate hardware.

Klaus

If it's so wonderful why don't you use it?

I said: it works. I didn´t say it works good enough for me. In fact it´s ok - but it´s uncomfortable in use and not easy reproducable.
So i dont´t like it under producing conditions. Using it under non-prucucer´s conditions i guess it´s fully ok!

THAT was what i said, Andrew.
.............
mediavets wrote:There are at least three related issues under discussion:

1. Exposure fusion frequently doesn't work at all on lower end system configurations.

Then don´t use it. There is an alternative - as was mentioned about a hundred times . . .

mediavets wrote:2. It's not considered to be very usable even on higher end configurations even by expert users of APG. Consequently they have typically resorted to using other software to perform exposure fusion, usually Photomatix.

That´s a matter of individual preferences. I prefer using Photomatix or Oloneo first - because i had the best results this way.

mediavets wrote:3. Users who've resorted to using Photomatix to pre-process their bracketed exposure image sets before stitching with APG report that APG doesn't stitch such image sets as well as PTGui does.

I know at least a dozen pros using Photomatix or Oloneo combined with APG. NONE of them - including myself - EVER had ANY issue stitching Photomatix-processed images just because the were processed in Photomatix.

What makes me really angry - statements are given, basing on the opinion of ONE or TWO rather unexperienced users . . . . and then the word is spread that "APG has issues with Photoatix-processd images" . . .

Other - also unexperienced (sorry) - users spread the word further . .

What´s the result? i sit together with some photographers, we´re talking about stitchers, talk about stitching and HDR . . and i hear from two newbies that "well, APG has issues with Photomatix-processed images so i think better buying PTGui because THIS one can handle processed HDR well" . . . .

Would you think that THIS could be in Kolor´s interest? I don´t think so!

I mean there are people who definitely talk too much nonsense, sorry again. These people can damage a product´s reputation.
Damaging a product´s reputation WITHOUT basing on HARD AND PROVEN FACTS is not respectable.

This is becoming more and more kind of kindergarden, Andrew.

Klaus
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by HansKeesom » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:16 pm

mediavets wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:Maybe kolor can use this to build in a kind of indicator that goes from green to red when the set of photos and chosen settings are challeging for the configuration available. Personally I would find it a waiste of time and energy but if it works for others....

It might be to dry stuff to read but reading the following thread can help to make things run much more smoothly, one just need to put the energy into it : http://www.kolor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=12117&p=1

It is like making photos with your camera, at a certain point you need to read up a bit on focus length, diafragma, focus depth, shutter time......

True...BUT Kolor's main pitch with their stitching prgrams has been the AUTO aspect of Autopano Pro and Autopano Giga... this (at one time anyway) differentiated APP and APG from the major competition (I believe it's called PT-something) and should not be lost sight of.

Someone once described Autopano Pro and Giga as stitching software for photographers, whilst PTGui was stitching software for engineers.

It seems as if APP and APG are now at risk of also becoming stitching programs for engineers.

This whole discussion has nothing to do with APP and APG getting less automatic or more difficult to understand. I process just as automaticly as a few years ago, actually it has become easier and easier thanks to the build in improvements.

This whole discussion is about the fact that when you have a relative small computer you are not gonna be able to make use of all these options.

I can fully understand that some photographers are not able/willing to buy themselves a large enough computer to process panoramas easily and fast. But don't blame Kolor for that, it is something they are not responsible for.
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by mediavets » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:19 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:I verified it several times: fusioning DOES work in APG - even with around 80 images - using appropriate hardware.

Klaus

If it's so wonderful why don't you use it?

I said: it works. I didn´t say it works good enough for me. In fact it's ok - but it´s uncomfortable in use and not easy reproducable.
So i dont´t like it under producing conditions. Using it under non-prucucer´s conditions i guess it´s fully ok!

THAT was what i said, Andrew.

So not good enough for you...but good enough for the 'rest of us', eh?

So that's all right then?

Elitism is alive and well in Dusseldorf. ;)

........

The fact that it's (in your words) "uncomfortable in use and not easy reproducable" shouldn't be of any concern to the "rest of us" and Kolor need not concern themselves about it?
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:24 pm

HansKeesom wrote:This whole discussion is about the fact that when you have a relative small computer you are not gonna be able to make use of all these options.

I can fully understand that some photographers are not able/willing to buy themselves a large enough computer to process panoramas easily and fast. But don't blame Kolor for that, it is something they are not responsible for.

I feel that it is something they are responsible for when they design the software and yet don't make these limitations plain in their marketing materials.
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:32 pm

vklaffehn wrote:For example I can get a HDR or tonemapped panorama when using photomatix and APG, but not using APG alone on the same hardware.

Kolor describes somewhere that APG doesn´t produce HDR and tonemapping. It produces fusioning.

The problem is: users usually don´t know the differences in detail anyway. But that´s not Kolor´s fault - it´s up to the users gathering knowledge first BEFORE starting to do "commercial gigapixel" on the base of knowing almost nothing . . . :rolleyes::cool:

"I want to do gigapixels commercially and want to make my living from it - i don´t know about photography . . which camera do i need?"

Starting a business without knowing ALL relevant details ABOUT that business definitely isn´t really clever.

The real problem is: more and more people think there´s no need at all to LEARN FIRST.

Klaus
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by mediavets » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:40 pm

klausesser wrote:What makes me really angry - statements are given, basing on the opinion of ONE or TWO rather unexperienced users . . . . and then the word is spread that "APG has issues with Photoatix-processd images" . . .

Why should you get angry - it's not your problem is it? Why do you feel an obligation to defend Kolor, are they not capable of defending themselves?

Although of course, according to you, there is no problem to get angry about.

Wouldn't you rather be exploring the 'joys' of PTP2.x?

Other - also unexperienced (sorry) - users spread the word further . .

I think you mean me ... fair enough, label me as you see fit ... well I am just summarising what I see reported. There have been many occasions in many fields in the past where the observations of the inexperienced have later proved to be important yet were trashed by the experts at the time (for example, look up the story of stomach ulcers and helicobacter).

What´s the result? i sit together with some photographers, we´re talking about stitchers, talk about stitching and HDR . . and i hear from two newbies that "well, APG has issues with Photomatix-processed images so i think better buying PTGui because THIS one can handle processed HDR well" . . . .

Would you think that THIS could be in Kolor´s interest? I don´t think so!

No, I don't think it's in Kolor's interests - and I do care about their interests - so why is no-one from Kolor here to state their case? That's all I'm trying to enourage really.

I mean there are people who definitely talk too much nonsense, sorry again. These people can damage a product´s reputation. Damaging a product´s reputation WITHOUT basing on HARD AND PROVEN FACTS is not respectable.

And simply dismissing the opinions and reports of others as baseless is no way to defend a product's reputation either.
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:03 am

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:If it's so wonderful why don't you use it?

I said: it works. I didn´t say it works good enough for me. In fact it's ok - but it´s uncomfortable in use and not easy reproducable.
So i dont´t like it under producing conditions. Using it under non-prucucer´s conditions i guess it´s fully ok!

THAT was what i said, Andrew.

So not good enough for you...but good enough for the 'rest of us', eh?
So that's all right then?
Elitism is alive and well in Dusseldorf. ;)

"Elitism"?? No. Just logic. Don´t you think there´s a difference doing things professionally/commercialy or as hobby?

I need to match different demands which clients have when i shoot and stitch panoramas for them. As an example: i made a tour
of 20 scenes for a famous artist.
Big - and relevant - exhibition i one of Germany´s most famous art-houses. Some rooms were VERY complicated structured - and hard to shoot.

He wanted high resoultion so that almost each object/Picture should be zoomable in a wide range. In some rooms i need to shoot from two perspectives.
The tour became very expensive - because of the shooting, but also because of a logically structured navigation. Allone to layout the navigation - the way a virtual visitor moves through the rooms - took us almost two weeks.

In such a tour even very small details count very much. They´re the salt and the pepper in the end.

Also it`s vital to take in account the mental structure of the potential visitors of art-exhibitions. This can be kind of alchemy . . .

You see: i NEED to take in account many, many details you´ll never will be faced with. And i mentioned only a VERY small part of the whole thing.

So: "Elitism"? No. Not at all. Just professionalism.

........
mediavets wrote:The fact that it's (in your words) "uncomfortable in use and not easy reproducable" shouldn't be of any concern to the "rest of us" and Kolor need not concern themselves about it?

Saying it´s uncomfortable i OF COURSE mean it´s uncomfortable FOR ME and in MY workflow.

So I MYSELF made the decision to do it MY way. That´s not discussable.

How "the rest of us" deal with it definitely is not my concern.

Klaus
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by klausesser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:20 am

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:What makes me really angry - statements are given, basing on the opinion of ONE or TWO rather unexperienced users . . . . and then the word is spread that "APG has issues with Photoatix-processd images" . . .

Why should you get angry - it's not your problem is it? Why do you feel an obligation to defend Kolor, are they not capable of defending themselves?

I´m using APP/G now for about seven years now and saw it grow, know it´s skills AND it´s shortcomings. Yes - it´s kind of emotional.
I always point out it´s shortcomings - but i do it basing on real experience "in the field".

mediavets wrote:so why is no-one from Kolor here to state their case? That's all I'm trying to enourage really.

THAT is a good question . . . :cool:

mediavets wrote:
I mean there are people who definitely talk too much nonsense, sorry again. These people can damage a product´s reputation. Damaging a product´s reputation WITHOUT basing on HARD AND PROVEN FACTS is not respectable.

And simply dismissing the opinions and reports of others as baseless is no way to defend a product's reputation either.

"simply dismissing the opinions of others as baseless"? No way. I just don´t trade them without any questioning when they´re questionable.

Stating that "APG can´t handle Photomatix images well" IS questionable. And there are others.

Klaus
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by Artisan New » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:39 am

Wrong Klaus,

>What is the required computer configuration to run Autopano Giga?
>
>Autopano Giga can run on Windows, Mac and Linux. Before purchasing it, you can download an try the demo version for free.
>Minimal configuration

Operating system:
Microsoft Windows 8, 7, Vista, XP or 2000
or Apple Mac OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion, 10.7 Lion, 10.6 Snow Leopard or 10.5 Leopard running on an Intel-based Mac only
or Linux kernel 2.6 or superior
Processor: 1 GHz
RAM: 2 Gb
Display: resolution of 1024x768 minimum
A sufficient hard disk space depending on the size of the panoramas you process

Recommended configuration

> The 64-bit version of your operating system if your hardware can handle it (eg. Windows Vista 64 bits, Mac OS 10.8 - 64 bits, Ubuntu 9.04 >- 64 bits, etc)
> A 2 GHz processor or more
> Multi-core processors
> 4 Gb of RAM or more
> A recent graphics card with dedicated memory

Now if Kolor had stated:

256 Gb of RAM and more
512 Gb SSD device
3 NVidia 690 graphic card

in order to use all the features including exposure blending.......then you would have been dead right. But as a software consumer I pay for all features especially if he (or in this case she) is expected to fork over extra money to use the features. If I had paid for this and the lame answer would be to upgrade I would request a full refund, and since even experienced users, like you Klaus admit that the required configuration does not run all features of the program, I would have a very strong case. This is called "expectation management" Klaus. Something most software companies do not understand how to do. So what Kolor should do now is simple:

Option 1) Rewrite the code so it exposure fusion with 49 D800 files works (at least a VR sphere can be generated) and state these limitations on there website using 4 Gb of RAM on a Mac (which being bases on freeBSD has better memory manegement then Windows). Give a shedule on the website on when this feature will be ready.

Option 2) Make a statement regarding exposure fusion being in development and currently only working for a limited amount of photos from a limited amount of cameras not including the whopping D800 files.

Option 3) Update the recomended configuration needed for APG in order to be able to use all it's features.

What they should not do, never ever, is leave customers in limbo....I for one will not (NOT) upgrade to APG 3.0 (or even APP 3.0) until these matters are solved accordingly. And since the price of PTGui (with which I've had stunning results in last years testing) and the price of APG 3.0 do not differ that much.....and if so PTGui is cheaper) I'm very much tempted to switch (at least for VR spheres).

Greets, Ed.

P.S. Klaus I've had loads of problems with Photomatix images and have done some none-HDR, HDR tests and I've had the same results as Mrs. Destiny......I found out that the blending algorithm does not like them and neither does the anti ghosting algorithm (resulting in residual ghosts of the vertical pole of my Panosaurus, which disappear when I don't use HDR images). Now this is quite repeatable (using 2.6.4 of course) unfortunatly. My files where 16 bit processed files using DxO as my RAW converter, using 12 Mpixel files coming from a GF1 and 12 Mpixel and exposure fused using standard settings in Photomatix. And using the middle stack solo everything worked like a charm (using 16 bit Tiffs from DxO) and using the Photomatix files, ghosts (4 to 6 of them). So I isolated the problem and found out that content did not matter (a red carpet more or less uniform > ghosts, a kitchen scene > ghosts, in the garden > ghosts) and all worked fine when using only the middle set. So I downloaded a testversion of PTGui (after a mail from Australia indeed) and a red carpet -> no ghosts, a kitchen scene -> no ghosts.....etc.
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by Destiny » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:37 am

APG 3.0.7 seemed to load my images quicker but sadly as Martin pointed out... When the boarder is red, fusion is disabled.. I will have to experiment to see just how big I can make my images for the fusion process to work.. I will have to do this in Photoshop, which is fine, I can just create a macro for this... I also tested the RAW images again but again I get pink in the lights.. I have no idea why this would happen.... I will capture a new test pano over the weekend under better light this time..

As my title of this thread suggests, back to basics, so I again I go back to basics... I really appreciated the help and advice from Andrews, Hans, Martin, Ed and Volker for your very valuable insight into this issue.. I have realised so many things.. Hans, my husband is going to set the link up so I can play on your awesome computer... Its far enough away not to get any radiation from it.. What do we need to do... I will recored it for other so see it as it happens.. We do not have audio working.. for some reason its died.. I think I stuffed it up.... So I hope you do not need that...

Destiny...
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by HansKeesom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:32 am

Destiny wrote:APG 3.0.7 seemed to load my images quicker but sadly as Martin pointed out... When the boarder is red, fusion is disabled.. I will have to experiment to see just how big I can make my images for the fusion process to work.. I will have to do this in Photoshop, which is fine, I can just create a macro for this... I also tested the RAW images again but again I get pink in the lights.. I have no idea why this would happen.... I will capture a new test pano over the weekend under better light this time..

As my title of this thread suggests, back to basics, so I again I go back to basics... I really appreciated the help and advice from Andrews, Hans, Martin, Ed and Volker for your very valuable insight into this issue.. I have realised so many things.. Hans, my husband is going to set the link up so I can play on your awesome computer... Its far enough away not to get any radiation from it.. What do we need to do... I will recored it for other so see it as it happens.. We do not have audio working.. for some reason its died.. I think I stuffed it up.... So I hope you do not need that...

Destiny...

Hi Destiny,

If you have enough experience with Windows the easiest thing to do is I make you an account on my 16 GB machine which is always on (99%)

Then to connect to this machine you need a RDP (Remote Desktop Client) client on your own machine and try to connect hanskeesom.xs4all.nl Then you need to fill in the account information I will send you privately. Then on the D-drive you see a folder that has you name in it. You have no access to your

If you prefer to work on my 64 GB Windows machine or Virtual mac we need make appointments when that is turned on, saving both energy and radiation.

No need for audio, you can do your thing in silence. But I can be found on skype if you want to discuss something or need help.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by Destiny » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:48 am

I have Team Viewer on Window Bootcamp, but not sure how that works and at the moment for some reason, Windows will not open.. Just another reason why I love Mac.. Never have this issue... Anyway.... Will Team Viewer be ok, if I get it working...

Destiny..
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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