Clearing the myths about Panogear head

[javqui]

by javqui » Tue May 14, 2013 2:44 am

Javqui,

I ran the two speed tests you report in the PDF for a 10mm rectilinear lens, bracketed and with no brackets and got a different result.

Not anywhere near as fast as your result for Panoshoot but faster than your reported result for Papywizard.

I used Papywizard 2.1.21, the same version as you used, but running on a Nokia Internet Tablet over a Bluetooth wireless connection (which yoiu might expect to produce a slower result than your test setup).

Results are from papywizard screenshot image. No magic on that.
if you change some test parameter that produce a better result than the comparative test, the prorated difference will be applied to panoshoot side also.
it means if you change something ( Time value, pulse width high, nbPictures, etc) and get 1 minute less, changing the same parameter in the panoshoot side will reduce the session time proportionally.

If you down the stabilization pause to a lower value, it will run in less time without an equivalent parameter to lower in Panoshoot side.
Another possible difference could be the starting position. If you start the pano in a favorable position could alter the results by 40 seconds or more.

You need to compare apples with apples.

Panoshoot/panogear could go even faster than the numbers published, but the difference could be unbelievable and will reduce the result confidence. ( we limit the maximum panogear speed by the moment)


Here is the XML file that papywizard create (just the small of the 3 file test)
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8" ?>
- <papywizard version="c">
- <header>
- <general>
<title>Here goes the title</title>
<gps>Here goes the location</gps>
<comment>Generated by Papywizard 2.1.21</comment>
</general>
- <shooting mode="mosaic">
<headOrientation>up</headOrientation>
<cameraOrientation>portrait</cameraOrientation>
<stabilizationDelay>0.5</stabilizationDelay>
<counter>067</counter>
<startTime>2013-05-08_10h01m13s</startTime>
<endTime>2013-05-08_10h07m56s</endTime>
</shooting>
- <camera>
<timeValue>0.5</timeValue>
<bracketing nbPicts="1" />
<sensor coef="1.6" ratio="3:2" />
</camera>
- <lens type="rectilinear">
<focal>10.0</focal>
</lens>
- <mosaic>
<nbPicts pitch="3" yaw="7" />
<overlap minimum="0.25" pitch="0.57" yaw="0.35" />
</mosaic>
</header>
- <shoot>
- <pict bracket="1" id="1">
<time>2013-05-08_10h02m32s</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="-143.1" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="2">
<time>2013-05-08_10h02m48s</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="-95.4" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="3">
<time>2013-05-08_10h03m04s</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="-47.7" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="4">
<time>2013-05-08_10h03m21s</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="-0.0" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="5">
<time>2013-05-08_10h03m37s</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="47.7" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="6">
<time>2013-05-08_10h03m53s</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="95.4" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="7">
<time>2013-05-08_10h04m10s</time>
<position pitch="41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="143.1" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="8">
<time>2013-05-08_10h04m25s</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="143.1" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="9">
<time>2013-05-08_10h04m41s</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="95.4" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="10">
<time>2013-05-08_10h04m57s</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="47.7" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="11">
<time>2013-05-08_10h05m14s</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="0.0" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="12">
<time>2013-05-08_10h05m30s</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="-47.7" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="13">
<time>2013-05-08_10h05m47s</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="-95.4" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="14">
<time>2013-05-08_10h06m03s</time>
<position pitch="0.0" roll="90.0" yaw="-143.1" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="15">
<time>2013-05-08_10h06m18s</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="-143.1" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="16">
<time>2013-05-08_10h06m34s</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="-95.4" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="17">
<time>2013-05-08_10h06m51s</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="-47.7" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="18">
<time>2013-05-08_10h07m07s</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="-0.0" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="19">
<time>2013-05-08_10h07m23s</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="47.7" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="20">
<time>2013-05-08_10h07m40s</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="95.4" />
</pict>
- <pict bracket="1" id="21">
<time>2013-05-08_10h07m56s</time>
<position pitch="-41.6" roll="90.0" yaw="143.1" />
</pict>
</shoot>
</papywizard>

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Tue May 14, 2013 12:11 pm

Regarding the wireless interference and environment with Wi-Fi restriction, you should use the autonomous feature of Panoshoot. You don’t need a host device to run your default programming, just press the joystick button for 5 seconds and your complex Pano setup will start executing without anything more than that.
The Pano execution never runs on the host device (smartphone/tablet/pc). The host device is just a graphical user interface. Panoshoot execute all calculations, shooting and motion controller commands by itself without the help of an external device.

Hey Javier!

How do you do set up the camera with the joystick only in case you can´t use wireless? I can´t see any display . .
WHAT will be executed in such a case? A sphere? Set for which lens? Mosaic? How do you fix start and end points? What if i need to change the lens?
Will there be an USB connection added? Will there be a 3,5mm jack added?

You see: that´s essential things for using a head for doing work with it! What if your smartphone/tablet runs out of battery? Or has a malfunction? Maybe you went to an assignment some hundred kilometers - and find you can´t shoot for restricted wireless or interfering surroundings?
Using the Merlin on N800 i several times had the BT connection broken or irritated by other devices around. For doing professional/commercial assignments i definitely wouldn´t rely ONLY on wireless.

For example: we shot in a mine: no wireless allowed. In a military compound: no wireless allowed, much interference anway. Even knowing that in advance: which device for controlling the head would you take with you for using the head?

I´d strongly suggest to add a way for using the head tethered - or add full controlling functions to the device which connects directly to the head.

Again: i think you´ve developed a fine device! But i also think there´s quite a way to go - and to run tests under real hard working (!) conditions for finding ALL important aspects related to seriously doing panorama-work.

On the other hand: 90% of the things i critizise are said under the aspect of professional/commercial working. I guess for a hobbyist it´s not THAT dramatic standing somewhere and not being able to shoot - he can do it another time. Also he has the time to hazzle with not clearly organizable xml for each pano seperately.

I have no idea what you mean saying "multiple xml" . . Could you explain precisely what that means regarding to have an xml for a dedicatd shoot?

Let´s say: you do a shooting somewhere and have 14 spheres and 6 mosaics. The spheres are done using 3 different lenses. For the mosaics you also took 3 different lenses for achieving different output-sizes.

Yo come home, read the pics from the camera into your machine: how do you handle the xml according to the different shoots? How do you identfy which xml belongs to which shoot? Timestamp? Number?
Sorry - that maybe a dumb question . . but i never heard about "multiple xml".

best, Klaus

PS: please don´t get my words wrong! I write because i made very much experiences over about 3 years by being involved in the developement of the TC-handheld first and the Panoneed-head then using both under
professional conditions on very much occasions and under very different aspects.
What really counts you can only find out by using such devices under those conditions and on extremely different assignmnents! Here i could help Josef - he´s been a long-time and very skilled developing-engineer at 3M who, for example, already developed digital cameras for special/scientifical purposes before there was any of them on the market.

During this process we very quickly abandoned the Merlin - which nevertheless is a fine device for what it costs - and also abandoned wireless, which we first started to use. It was my demand to use tethered control with up to 15m cable but also being able to start and stop the process radio-controlled.
If even THAT is restricted one still can use the cable - instead of not being able to work at all . .

[javqui]

by javqui » Tue May 14, 2013 2:22 pm

Hey Javier!

How do you do set up the camera with the joystick only in case you can´t use wireless? I can´t see any display . .
WHAT will be executed in such a case? A sphere? Set for which lens? Mosaic? How do you fix start and end points? What if i need to change the lens?

The runner (mosaic, standard preset, FHD preset, video preset, etc) that you define as your favorite.

Will there be an USB connection added? Will there be a 3,5mm jack added?

Panoshoot doesn’t need a USB connection or a 3.5mm jacket.

You see: that´s essential things for using a head for doing work with it! What if your smartphone/tablet runs out of battery? Or has a malfunction? Maybe you went to an assignment some hundred kilometers - and find you can´t shoot for restricted wireless or interfering surroundings?
Using the Merlin on N800 i several times had the BT connection broken or irritated by other devices around. For doing professional/commercial assignments i definitely wouldn´t rely ONLY on wireless.

As I mention before, you don’t need your smartphone or the wireless device to execute your programming.

For example: we shot in a mine: no wireless allowed. In a military compound: no wireless allowed, much interference anway. Even knowing that in advance: which device for controlling the head would you take with you for using the head?

Are you serious?.
Klaus you are compromising the veracity of your professionalism with this post and others that were just in the edge. I suggest go down and change your strategy. You can’t promote your equipment on this way, is not fair. I’m very respectful with others, but if you and mediavets insist to go on this way, I will suggest that the owners of your promoted product advise you in a different way. We have more than enough arguments to put your promoted product as garbage, and you know that. So please keep the professional level and discuss the topic about the Panogear myths. Please be professional.
Real professionals know that you can’t shoot a camera in an explosive environment like a mine, or many industrial areas with highly flammable elements. If you shoot your camera in a mine and you said that you can’t turn on the wireless its sound that your experience exists in your mind only.
The risk of a certified wireless device as Panoshoot is negligible when compare with the real arc produced by the shooting contact and all moving parts in the head and the camera. If a certified Wireless device (not a Chinese Bluetooth dongle) can’t be turned on, it’s impossible that safe engineers will permit you use the camera or a device with a motor without a explosion proof special design.

I´d strongly suggest to add a way for using the head tethered - or add full controlling functions to the device which connects directly to the head.

It actually works without the host. If you start doing everything in front of your customers at last minute, I consider it a very bad professional practice. You configure your equipment previously and just start shooting panos in the field with everything ready.
Before you go to the next point, let me say that Panoshoot works in outer space, but will require a special waterproof shield to work at 50m or more underwater. We didn’t test it at Mariana Trench yet but could be very useful from your point of view.

Again: i think you´ve developed a fine device! But i also think there´s quite a way to go - and to run tests under real hard working (!) conditions for finding ALL important aspects related to seriously doing panorama-work.
On the other hand: 90% of the things i critizise are said under the aspect of professional/commercial working. I guess for a hobbyist it´s not THAT dramatic standing somewhere and not being able to shoot - he can do it another time. Also he has the time to hazzle with not clearly organizable xml for each pano seperately.

Well, after read your post and others from you in the forum, I start thinking in different way. Not sure at this moment who is the professional forum writer/hobbyist/ public opinion handler or who is the real professional passion photographer.

I have no idea what you mean saying "multiple xml" . . Could you explain precisely what that means regarding to have an xml for a dedicatd shoot?
Let´s say: you do a shooting somewhere and have 14 spheres and 6 mosaics. The spheres are done using 3 different lenses. For the mosaics you also took 3 different lenses for achieving different output-sizes.
Yo come home, read the pics from the camera into your machine: how do you handle the xml according to the different shoots? How do you identfy which xml belongs to which shoot? Timestamp? Number?
Sorry - that maybe a dumb question . . but i never heard about "multiple xml".

best, Klaus

Starting build 97, you have two options:
1- Download an XML file for each session.
2- Download a single XML file with all your sessions.
If you need a XML file for each shoot (not sure why), you can do it very easily with the API and your customized web page. Just ask the shoot point, and insert all the XML formatting, like the feedback session do when you start watching the progress of your Pano.
Format of a single XML file for each session:
<headers here>
<shoots here>
<end if header here>
For a multi session XML file is just the same with an extra level
<Session #n here>
<headers here>
<shoots here>
<end if header here>
</session>
<Session #n here>
<headers here>
<shoots here>
<end if header here>
</session>

PS: please don´t get my words wrong! I write because i made very much experiences over about 3 years by being involved in the developement of the TC-handheld first and the Panoneed-head then using both under
professional conditions on very much occasions and under very different aspects.
What really counts you can only find out by using such devices under those conditions and on extremely different assignmnents! Here i could help Josef - he´s been a long-time and very skilled developing-engineer at 3M who, for example, already developed digital cameras for special/scientifical purposes before there was any of them on the market.

During this process we very quickly abandoned the Merlin - which nevertheless is a fine device for what it costs - and also abandoned wireless, which we first started to use. It was my demand to use tethered control with up to 15m cable but also being able to start and stop the process radio-controlled.
If even THAT is restricted one still can use the cable - instead of not being able to work at all . .

I understand you and I admire the engineer work of Mr. Josef. But I suggest to Mr. Josef recheck the promotion strategy with you. Your answer to my suggestion to improve Panoneed was a clear overreaction and a very angry answer from your side. We exist and we have experience also, and we can join efforts to create a better world with better products instead initiate a destructive and unfounded campaign without sense, that at the end nobody will get advantage.

Edited: fix a mistake with Klaus name.

Last edited by javqui on Wed May 15, 2013 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Tue May 14, 2013 3:06 pm

I understand you and I admire the engineer work of Mr. Josef. But I suggest to Mr. Josef recheck the promotion strategy with you. Your answer to my suggestion to improve Panoneed was a clear overreaction and a very angry answer from your side. We exist and we have experience also, and we can join efforts to create a better world with better products instead initiate a destructive and unfounded campaign without sense, that at the end nobody will get advantage.

This was your suggestion I believe?:

"As a developer, will be interesting and challenging create an advanced user interface for panoneed with additional features like USB wifi camera control and wireless real time video feedback with a modern platform that we develop recently for other consumer electronic products. We are open to these options with a list of good ideas and we can provide our expertise to improve panoneed with novelty and high demand features, not present in Panoneed at this time."

To my mind it is intentionally provocative; yet I haven't seen any reaction specifically to this from Klaus, let alone anything that I would class 'as a clear overreaction and a very angry answer'.

You seem to have a tendency not to answer some questions but instead you attack the person asking the questions.

You have a strange way of trying to win hearts and minds.

.............................

You wrote:

"I’m very respectful with others, but if you and mediavets insist to go on this way, I will suggest that the owners of your promoted product advise you in a different way."

I have no promotional 'axe' to grind here.

I am not a professional photographer; I am a hobbyist.

I have no connection with T&C. My only connection' with Klaus is our both being very long standing members of this forum who were both early users of the Merlin mount and Papywizard. I admire his work but we frequently agree to disagree about things on the forum.

I was involved on an entirely voluntary basis with some aspects of the development and testing of Papywizard; I've never made a secret of that, far from it.

I am now involved on an entirely voluntary basis with some aspects of the introduction and testing of PandroidWiz; that's no secret either.

Both Papywizard and PandroidWiz are free applications, no-one is making any money from them directly.

Kolor and SkiVR presumably were able to make some money from Papywizard indirectly, as a controller for the Merlin/Panogear mount, because it enabled sales of hardware.

Last edited by mediavets on Tue May 14, 2013 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Tue May 14, 2013 3:42 pm

Mr. Klauss you are compromising the veracity of your professionalism with this post and others that were just in the edge. I suggest go down and change your strategy. You can’t promote your equipment on this way, is not fair. I’m very respectful with others, but if you and mediavets insist to go on this way, I will suggest that the owners of your promoted product advise you in a different way. We have more than enough arguments to put your promoted product as garbage, and you know that. So please keep the professional level and discuss the topic about the Panogear myths. Please be professional.

Javier - this is an unrespectful raction to neutral and sober questions. I accept that you don´t like questions like that at all - but that rises only more questions.
Neither i nor Andrew get "advised" by "the owners" of our "promoted products". That´s offensive nonsense.

I tried to communicate in a helpful way and wrote about my experiences with other products. Of course i name the products because i´m a serious man who don´t like blabbering around in a misty way without being precise.

Real professionals know that you can’t shoot a camera in an explosive environment like a mine, or many industrial areas with highly flammable elements. If you shoot your camera in a mine and you said that you can’t turn on the wireless its sound that your experience exists in your mind only.

You no way always can know what you´re encountering coming to an assignment. Being prepared to EVERYTHING that might happen is a major rule and it´s what i call professional. Maybe you can´t know this. Besides: i never spoke about "expülosive environments". Of course you would know THAT in advance.

You´re thinking in a competitive manner - i don´t think this way at all. I´m not a competitor to your product and so isn´t Josef resp. Panoneed - the price difference speaks for itself. Very different niveau - in all aspects.
So neither i nor Josef have any idea of speaking negatively about your product - to the contrary: i discussed it with Josef intensively and we both basically welcome the idea behind it.
And we see the shortcomings it might have in some aspects. That´s what i communicated from a user´s view.

The way you react is dispensable and i have not time to waste it for nothing. I was very interested and respectful to you and your new device - as i stated several times and wanted to give some ideas from a pro´s view and experiences. My fault.

So: nothing more from my side regarding your product.

"Mr. Klaus"

Last edited by klausesser on Tue May 14, 2013 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[javqui]

by javqui » Tue May 14, 2013 3:47 pm

I understand you and I admire the engineer work of Mr. Josef. But I suggest to Mr. Josef recheck the promotion strategy with you. Your answer to my suggestion to improve Panoneed was a clear overreaction and a very angry answer from your side. We exist and we have experience also, and we can join efforts to create a better world with better products instead initiate a destructive and unfounded campaign without sense, that at the end nobody will get advantage.

This was your suggestion I believe?:
"As a developer, will be interesting and challenging create an advanced user interface for panoneed with additional features like USB wifi camera control and wireless real time video feedback with a modern platform that we develop recently for other consumer electronic products. We are open to these options with a list of good ideas and we can provide our expertise to improve panoneed with novelty and high demand features, not present in Panoneed at this time."
To my mind it is intentionally provocative; yet I haven't seen any reaction specifically to this from Klaus, let alone anything that I would class 'as a clear overreaction and a very angry answer'.

Yes, I didn’t see any problem with that. We have some good ideas that could help improve Panonned and the reaction was “We don’t need your ideas”. We suggest include a video feedback and the reaction was “We can purchase it separately”. We wrote to use a modern platform, and clearly you said that Panoneed doesn’t need a modern platform due it do the job as is, even before know what is the platform.
From my point of view, sounds like you don’t accept any suggestion and you don't care about the potential user needs. The answer was very angry. (I will not copy it here to avoid increase the tension)

You seem to have a tendency not to answer some questions but instead you attack the person asking the questions.
You have strange way of trying to win hearts and minds.

I didn’t answer some of your question due they are not real questions. They are part of your personal game.
I can’t believe that you are an official Moderator of Kolor and you write some type of questions and statements that put the professional reputation of Kolor in risk.
Kolor should consider review it seriously.
By the way, if you have any real question, I will dedicate time to answer it. Please formulate your question in a professional way; instead use insults, provocative statements, etc. Personally I’m a very quiet guy, living in a extremely quiet place that react to insults, stupidity and manipulation very quickly.
Just remove this components from your future post, and we will have a better communication.

.............................

I have no promotional 'axe' to grind here.

I am not a professional photographer; I am a hobbyist.

I have no connection with T&C.

I was involved on an entirely voluntary basis with some aspects of the development and testing of Papywizard; I've never made a secret of that, far from it.

I am now involved on an entirely voluntary basis with some aspects of the introduction and testing of PandroidWiz; that's no secret either.

Both Papywizard and PandroidWiz are free applications, no-one is making any money from them directly.

Kolor and SkiVR presumably were able to make some money from Papywizard indirectly, as a controller for the Merlin/Panogear mount, because it enabled sales of hardware.

Good !
I think we are moving forward and in the right direction now.
We can work to build better tools. At the end we are temporarily on this world. Just need left something for future generations.
Javier

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Tue May 14, 2013 4:04 pm

From my point of view, sounds like you don’t accept any suggestion and you don't care about the potential user needs. The answer was very angry. (I will not copy it here to avoid increase the tension)

I honor your point of view - but that´s nonsense, sorry. Of course we also think about such things - and there are good reasons not to use them implemented in thje head´s controll-device but keep them seperated. The controlling device in our minds should be as straight as possible - concentrating on the real needed functions. And THESE functiuons need to work perfect under all conditions.
That´s what the TC in combination with the Panoneed do: it works perfectly under all conditions and in all aspects.

Please formulate your question in a professional way; instead use insults, provocative statements, etc.

. . . .

"Mr. Klaus"

[javqui]

by javqui » Tue May 14, 2013 4:09 pm

Mr. Klaus you are compromising the veracity of your professionalism with this post and others that were just in the edge. I suggest go down and change your strategy. You can’t promote your equipment on this way, is not fair. I’m very respectful with others, but if you and mediavets insist to go on this way, I will suggest that the owners of your promoted product advise you in a different way. We have more than enough arguments to put your promoted product as garbage, and you know that. So please keep the professional level and discuss the topic about the Panogear myths. Please be professional.
Real professionals know that you can’t shoot a camera in an explosive environment like a mine, or many industrial areas with highly flammable elements. If you shoot your camera in a mine and you said that you can’t turn on the wireless its sound that your experience exists in your mind only.

Javier - this is an unrespectful raction to neutral and sober questions. I accept that you don´t like questions like that at all - but that rises only more questions.
Neither i nor Andrew get "advised" by "the owners" of our "promoted products". That´s offensive nonsense.

I tried to communicate in a helpful way and wrote about my experiences with other products. Of course i name the products because i´m a serious man who don´t like blabbering around in a misty way without being precise.
You no way always can know what you´re encountering coming to an assignment. Being prepared to EVERYTHING that might happen is a major rule and it´s what i call professional. Maybe you can´t know this. Besides: i never spoke about "expülosive environments". Of course you would know THAT in advance.

Dear Klaus.
Unfortunately you can go back and forward and change things to be out of context.

The forum topic was Panogear myths, and you start moving the topic into a different way to critique in a destructive way with extreme arguments. Your last post went too far. Just check how you move the topic to your last post, is not amazing?
You compromise the veracity of your professionalism when you start inventing extreme and impossible situations to minimize Panoshoot. If I didn’t stop that, the next step will go to the Mariana trench.

[
You´re thinking in a competitive manner - i don´t think this way at all. I´m not a competitor to your product and so isn´t Josef resp. Panoneed - the price difference speaks for itself. Very different niveau - in all aspects.
So neither i nor Josef have any idea of speaking negatively about your product - to the contrary: i discussed it with Josef intensively and we both basically welcome the idea behind it.
And we see the shortcomings it might have in some aspects. That´s what i communicated from a user´s view.
The way you react is dispensable and i have not time to waste it for nothing. I was very interested and respectful to you and your new device - as i stated several times and wanted to give some ideas from a pro´s view and experiences. My fault.

So: nothing more from my side regarding your product.

"Mr. Klaus"

Good to hear it.
We are now moving in the right direction.

Edited: fix a mistake with Klaus name (Klauss).

Last edited by javqui on Wed May 15, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Tue May 14, 2013 4:20 pm

you start moving the topic into a different way to critique in a destructive way with extreme arguments.

Ok - you will not like to read this also: there was not a single "extreme argument". The fact that you seem to completely
understimate such "extremes" might lead to somebody experience such a moment and learning it the hard way . . . . as i did.

Mr. Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Tue May 14, 2013 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[javqui]

by javqui » Tue May 14, 2013 4:43 pm

you start moving the topic into a different way to critique in a destructive way with extreme arguments.

Ok - you will not like to read this also: there was not a single "extreme argument". The fact that you seem to completely
understimate such "extremes" might lead to somebody experience such a moment and learning it the hard way . . . . as i did.

Mr. Klaus

Klaus,
Can we move forward?
We think that the topic is Panogear myths.

Regarding the fact that you consider that we "completely underestimate such extreme scenarios" you continue with the programmatic debunking about our work, when you will stop doing that? Do you really want move forward?

Your extreme scenario is a mine where you can't turn on the wireless for an unknowable reason different than security or a misunderstood risk of explosion, but at the same time you can take pictures of it and there is no risk of explosion with the shutter, motors and internal camera mechanisms. (its a very extreme scenario).

We consider that we answer your question at your extreme scenario. It can be done with the autonomous feature of Panoshoot that doesn't require the Wi-Fi to operate.

Javier

Last edited by javqui on Wed May 15, 2013 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Tue May 14, 2013 5:27 pm

Your extreme scenario is a mine where you can't turn on the wireless for an unknowable reason different than security or a misunderstood risk of explosion, but at the same time you can take pictures of it and there is no risk of explosion with the shutter, motors and internal camera mechanisms. (its a very extreme scenario).
We consider that we answer your question at your extreme scenario. It can be done with the autonomous feature of Panoshoot that doesn't require the Wi-Fi to operate.

javier - a last comment before i quit that thread: i spoke of a mine as ONE example of a situation where you´re not allowed to use wireless devices. Another one was an underground railway construction-site.
Another one was a manufacturer of high sensitive electronic devices - no wireless, no cell-phones allowed. Another one was an air-traffic control center: no smartphones/tablets.
Another one was a multinational opreating Pharma company´s laboratories. A big law-firm didn´t allow wireless because of security reasons. And there are others which you never would ask in advance or even think of might be happening.

Reducing the wireless-restriction theme to "explosive" sites definitely and talking of "extreme situations" is very short-sighted. There are more surroundings where you´re not allowed to use your smartphone or similar devices than you might think!

You didn´t answer my question what precisely (!) means "It can be done with the autonomous feature of Panoshoot that doesn't require the Wi-Fi to operate".

Being in such a situation choosing an appropriate setup: how would that work in detail just with a joystick and without a display or USB or a 2,5/3,5mm jack?
I´m curious.

You´re really attacking a person who means well. I´m definitely not interested in "minimizing Panoshoot" at all - why would i - and i´m not business-wise related to TC or Panoneed. Both of their products - controller and head - play in a very different range than the Merlin.

You statement naming other products "garbage" on the other hand speaks for itself . . and doesn´t make anything better:

*"We have more than enough arguments to put your promoted product as garbage, and you know that."* Who is overreacting here? Not me, i guess . . .

That´s not what i would call a serious behavior. And: no - i do not know at all that the TC-handheld and Panoneed-head is "garbage" . . .

good luck, Klaus

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Tue May 14, 2013 6:14 pm

I didn’t answer some of your question due they are not real questions. They are part of your personal game.

I'll ignore the 'personal game' jibe.

One of the questions I asked was what is the duration of the built-in stablisation delay you referred to in the Panoshoot speed test confiuration.

That seems to me to be a real question.

...............

As I read it you claimed that you were able to make the Merlin go much faster with panoshoot, compared to other controllers because you had some special knowledge of how it worked which was either not availabel to them or that they had failed to understand.

I asked how you were able to gain a better understanding of the internal workings of the Merlin mount than other developers?

I think that's a real question.

....................

Another was whether Kolor was going to develop a Panshoot Import wizard to handle your multi-pano XML files.

I think that's a real question.

.....................

I can’t believe that you are an official Moderator of Kolor and you write some type of questions and statements that put the professional reputation of Kolor in risk.

Kolor invited me to be a Moderator just of the Merlin/Papywizard area of the forum. I guess they (then) thought I had something positive to contribute.

I use Kolor's products because I like them but I do not represent Kolor. Indeed Alexandre will tell you that I have been very critical of some of their products in the past, but I like to think always with the intention of making them better. OTOH I also write a lot of positive stuff about Kolor and their products both here and on other forums; some consider me a 'fan boy'.

Kolor has decided to market your Panoshoot product. That doesn't mean I am obliged to be unreservedly enthusiatic about it.

Kolor should consider review it seriously.

That's for Kolor to decide.

Personally I’m a very quiet guy, living in a extremely quiet place that react to insults, stupidity and manipulation very quickly.
Just remove this components from your future post, and we will have a better communication.

Perhaps Northern Europeans are thicker skinned?

It may surprise you to know that I rather like Americans; and I was once married to an American.

But you know what they say of the British and Amercians; 'two nations divided by a common language' - which offers much scope for misunderstanding based on the misconception that we are very alike.

Last edited by mediavets on Tue May 14, 2013 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Tue May 14, 2013 6:39 pm

Javqui,

I ran the two speed tests you report in the PDF for a 10mm rectilinear lens, bracketed and with no brackets and got a different result.

Not anywhere near as fast as your result for Panoshoot but faster than your reported result for Papywizard.

I used Papywizard 2.1.21, the same version as you used, but running on a Nokia Internet Tablet over a Bluetooth wireless connection (which yoiu might expect to produce a slower result than your test setup).

Results are from papywizard screenshot image. No magic on that.
if you change some test parameter that produce a better result than the comparative test, the prorated difference will be applied to panoshoot side also.
it means if you change something ( Time value, pulse width high, nbPictures, etc) and get 1 minute less, changing the same parameter in the panoshoot side will reduce the session time proportionally.

I checked the values again and I did use values identical to those shown in your Papywizard screenshots.

I have repeated the tests, this time using a Nokia N810 rather than the N800, and they come out very nearly the same.

1 shot:

Run 1 4mins 52 seconds

Run 2 5mins 14 seconds

Run 3 5mins 13 seconds

And 3 brackets:

Run 1 6mins 24 seconds

Run 2 6mins 48 seconds

Run 3 6mins 45 seconds.

If you down the stabilization pause to a lower value, it will run in less time without an equivalent parameter to lower in Panoshoot side.

Of course. My value was the same as that in your Papywizard screenshots.

It's also why I asked what the duration your built-in stabilisation delay is.

Another possible difference could be the starting position. If you start the pano in a favorable position could alter the results by 40 seconds or more.

I accept that.

As described before I started the first run from the zero/zero Home position, which is what you'd do in real life, and subsequent runs from the end point of the previous run (in otherwords the opposite corner to the first shooting position on the grid).

You need to compare apples with apples.

I couldn't agree more.

So what is the duration of the built-in stablisation delay in Panoshoot?

How does your Obturator value relate to Papywizard's Time value?

You present two sets of Panshoot timings one for 'indoors' and the other for 'infinite focus'.

Which of these settings will produce the same level of accuracy and precision (using those terms defined by you in the Myths PDF) as Papywizard?

Last edited by mediavets on Tue May 14, 2013 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[javqui]

by javqui » Tue May 14, 2013 7:01 pm

javier - a last comment before i quit that thread: i spoke of a mine as ONE example of a situation where you´re not allowed to use wireless devices. Another one was an underground railway construction-site.
Another one was a manufacturer of high sensitive electronic devices - no wireless, no cell-phones allowed. Another one was an air-traffic control center: no smartphones/tablets.
Another one was a multinational opreating Pharma company´s laboratories. A big law-firm didn´t allow wireless because of security reasons. And there are others which you never would ask in advance or even think of might be happening.

Reducing the wireless-restriction theme to "explosive" sites definitely and talking of "extreme situations" is very short-sighted. There are more surroundings where you´re not allowed to use your smartphone or similar devices than you might think!

You didn´t answer my question what precisely (!) means "It can be done with the autonomous feature of Panoshoot that doesn't require the Wi-Fi to operate".
Being in such a situation choosing an appropriate setup: how would that work in detail just with a joystick and without a display or USB or a 2,5/3,5mm jack?
I´m curious.

Dear Klaus.
Maybe a single step by step could help to visualize how it works.
1- Configure your profiles (lens, camera, etc.)
2- Configure your runners (mosaic, preset, video, astronomy, etc).
Each runner can be configured with a different profile, so you can create combinations. You don’t need to load your different equipment, lens, settings, etc. again and again.
3- Set your default runner for the joystick (if you want more than one, you need to set the list)
4- Turn off, packing and move to the pano place. Reinstall your head mount and camera.
5- Turn on, press the joystick button (5 seconds)
6- Wait for the head to end the session.
7- If you want run the same session, just press the button again.
8- If you want execute other runner you need to press the button and move the joystick to some of the 4 positions available, for the next 4 runner definitions (total 5 possible options).
9- Turn off and return home.
10- Turn on and download your XML log files. (or your single multisession XML file)
You can download the multisession file, make a backup and start using the portion that you need only by deleting the other sessions.

IMPORTANT NOTE: The previous step by step is only for scenarios with a Wi-Fi restriction in place.
Steps 1,2,5,6,7 available since the first builds. Step 3 available since build 96 Step 8 available since build 100 . Step 10 available since build 98

You´re really attacking a person who means well. I´m definitely not interested in "minimizing Panoshoot" at all - why would i - and i´m not business-wise related to TC or Panoneed. Both of their products - controller and head - play in a very different range than the Merlin.

You statement naming other products "garbage" on the other hand speaks for itself . . and doesn´t make anything better:

*"We have more than enough arguments to put your promoted product as garbage, and you know that."* Who is overreacting here? Not me, i guess . . .

That´s not what i would call a serious behavior. And: no - i do not know at all that the TC-handheld and Panoneed-head is "garbage" . . .

good luck, Klaus

I never said that in the way that you mention. You are quoting statements out of context.
I said that if you continue treating us as you and mediavets did, trying to minimize Panoshoot and Panogear with negative adjectives, insults and other notorious and improper comments for a moderator or a professional photographer, without any apparent reason (according with your last statements that you don’t have any business relations with other manufacturers), without read the document and our answers, sending multiple post with uncontrollable attacks without wait for answers, talking about features that you didn't know how they work or doing unfair comparisons, we have more than enough technical arguments (and not adjectives and insults ) to do the same thing with the product that you are defending. At the end, we will not fail in this game, due nobody will get a benefit.

The perfect equipment didn’t exist. Panoshoot, Panogear, panoneed or any of all other mount heads that you mention is perfect. Probably you are not a young guy like me and life teaches us this type of things.
The reason is simple, we are humans. Each user has different requirements. Humans are creative by default and you can’t assert in a statement that your equipment is perfect for everybody. Will be perfect for a specific user, o perfect for your specific application, but it will fail in many other situations.
To go a little close to a perfect equipment, you need to provide easy alternatives to customize and expand the equipment as Papywizard did very well in the past (Panoshoot have this option due no user is identical to other and no user will think exactly like you or me).

Javier

edited: Fix a mistake with Klaus name.

Last edited by javqui on Wed May 15, 2013 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Tue May 14, 2013 7:18 pm

The perfect equipment didn’t exist. Panoshoot, Panogear, Panoneed or any of all other mount heads that you mention is perfect.

Agreed.

Probably you are not a young guy like me and life teaches us this type of things.

No, I shall be 65 this year and I've certainly learned that very little is anywhere near 'perfect'. I have also learned a measure of humility over the years. Can you imagine how insufferably arrogant I must have been as a young man?

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Tue May 14, 2013 7:27 pm

I never said that in the way that you mention. You are quoting statements out of context.
I said that if you continue treating us as you and mediavets did, trying to minimize Panoshoot and Panogear with negative adjectives, insults and other notorious and improper comments for a moderator or a professional photographer, without any apparent reason (according with your last statements that you don’t have any business relations with other manufacturers), without read the document and our answers, sending multiple post with uncontrollable attacks without wait for answers, talking about features that you didn't know how they work or doing unfair comparisons, we have more than enough technical arguments (and not adjectives and insults ) to do the same thing with the product that you are defending. At the end, we will not fail in this game, due nobody will get a benefit.

Javier - NOBODY even TRIED to "minimize" Panoshoot and Panogear with "negative adjectives". NOBODY - the least ones to do so are Andrew and myself: Andrew uses a Merlin still and i used one for years.

Due to this sheer fact we both know the pros and cons very well - and often talked and disputed about them.

You´re welcome to do the same regarding the TC and/or the Panoneed. Neither the handheld nor the head need to be anxious - they defend themselves by doing great work flawlessly . . which more than 400 of saled units (TC) state.

"At the end, we will not fail in this game,"
. . you definitely would.

But i didn´t write for nor am i interested in any competition-talk - i wrote from my view as a user who experienced the things i described several times . . and decided to get rid of them.

If just THAT is too much for you - living in your very quiet neighbourhood . . - i better don´t write anything from real life for not disturbing your rest.

Klaus

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Tue May 14, 2013 7:32 pm

No, I shall be 65 this year and I've certainly learned that very little is anywhere near 'perfect'. I have also learned a measure of humility over the years. Can you imagine how insufferably arrogant I must have been as a young man?

Yes, nothing is perfect - but some come closer than others to perfection in a practical way. When a device works flawlessly, without issues and give me almost perfect results where others don´t - i dare to name it "perfect".

best, Klaus (i´ll hit 67 this year . . )

below you find the Zenith-faces ("up" faces) from two panos i did last week. I minimized them - the pano has about 37000px and the cube-faces have around 12000px.
They´re "out of the box" . . so to speak. 35mm Nikon lens on a 5D2.

Last edited by klausesser on Tue May 14, 2013 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[javqui]

by javqui » Tue May 14, 2013 8:18 pm

One of the questions I asked was what is the duration of the built-in stablisation delay you referred to in the Panoshoot speed test confiuration.

Panoshoot detect when all motors had been stopped including the movement related with the default inertia for gears, head body and a lightweight camera.
After that, Panoshoot add an extra user stabilization delay (only if the user installs a camera/lens heavier than the classic low weight camera, means something over 1.5Kg more or less).
There is a special situation that we will fix in build 100 with only some Panogears models that involve an additional stabilization effect related with the yaw gears.

As I read it you claimed that you were able to make the Merlin go much faster with panoshoot, compared to other controllers because you had some special knowledge of how it worked which was either not availabel to them or that they had failed to understand.

I asked how you were able to gain a better understanding of the internal workings of the Merlin mount than other developers?

Several months ago (at CES time to be exact), I mention that we found more commands to produce better results for Panogear.

The feedback from the forum was terrible. Laugh about pictures and I remember that one of the comments was “ well we need to hack your device”, and some of them with adjectives that I don’t want to reproduce again here.
My answer was pretty innocent or stupid by this moment, something like “it will not be necessary hack the device and the list of new commands are available for the Papywizard developers”. But in 5 months nobody ask for that. I’m sure that I’m wrong, but looks like too much arrogance and lack of humility on this closed community.

Unfortunately we don’t have access to anything special. If we had access to that information, we will finish several months ago. I ask for help last year to repair a Panogear main board with both microntrollers fried (not sure who can produce this type of damage) and receive some answers from a “prominent expert“ in Panogear that really surprise me.

Regarding about how we did, the answer is the answer of popular IQ test, crosswords, brain games or other similar child test:
“abcdfghij”
that’s it. Very simple and obvious.

Another was whether Kolor was going to develop a Panshoot Import wizard to handle your multi-pano XML files.
I think that's a real question.

If they want to include this feature they will do it. If they don’t want to include the feature, they will not do it.
We think that the feature could be useful for most users due a single file for a multi session job, help a little to organize the data by day, by job, by place, by customer, etc., instead by session only.
Reading the header, could be even better, there are valuable information for the stitching application like precision available, model of the camera and head, lens, GPS location, optimizations applied, filters, etc.

Perhaps Northern Europeans are thicker skinned?
It may surprise you to know that I rather like Americans; and I was once married to an American.
But you know what they say of the British and Amercians; 'two nations divided by a common language' - which offers much scope for misunderstanding based on the misconception that we are very alike.

Well , it may surprise you, but I’m from the north of Spain, married with a beautiful Italian woman, grow up in LatinAmerica with a balanced influence mix between the two worlds. Move to USA about 15 years ago.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Tue May 14, 2013 10:41 pm

Javqui,

I decided to run the 10mm 7x3 matrix speed test using PandroidWiz RC1 Build 2 running on a Nexus 7 with Android 4.2.2, using a Bluetooth connecton to the Merlin mount powered with 12vDC external battery pack.

I converted a Data file from Papywizard to a Preset for PandroidWiz, so it was shooting an identical pattern, and set parameters as close as I could to those for Papywizard.

PandroidWiz has a standard built-in stablisation delay of a min. of 0.5s.

The results are interesting.

1 Shot (21 images)

Run 1 3min 56 seconds

Run 2 3min 59 seconds

Run 3 3min 56 seconds

3 bracket (63 images)

Run 1 6min 12 seconds

Run 2 6min 11 seconds

Run 3 6min 11 seconds

Compare with the results from the Panoshoot Myths PDF:

Last edited by mediavets on Tue May 14, 2013 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[javqui]

by javqui » Tue May 14, 2013 10:53 pm

hey mediavets.
Thanks for posting this results.

Welcome pandroidWiz to the Panogear world.
Probably we can share some experiences, if they want.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Tue May 14, 2013 11:09 pm

Another was whether Kolor was going to develop a Panshoot Import wizard to handle your multi-pano XML files.
I think that's a real question.

If they want to include this feature they will do it. If they don’t want to include the feature, they will not do it.
We think that the feature could be useful for most users due a single file for a multi session job, help a little to organize the data by day, by job, by place, by customer, etc., instead by session only.
Reading the header, could be even better, there are valuable information for the stitching application like precision available, model of the camera and head, lens, GPS location, optimizations applied, filters, etc.

It sounds as if you now have your own XML data file definition/standard which enables you to record additional Panoshoot-specific information.

In this case it would seem to make sense to have a Panoshoot Import wizard; in which case it could be desigend to handle multi-pano XML data files.

In the meantime I don't quite understand why Panoshoot doesn't offer the option to record and store (on the device) multiple single pano XML data files which could be used directly by the current Papywizard Import wizard.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Tue May 14, 2013 11:14 pm

hey mediavets.
Thanks for posting this results.

Welcome PandroidWiz to the Panogear world.

I would like to revisit an earlier question:

"You present two sets of Panshoot timings one for 'indoors' and the other for 'infinite focus'.

Which of these settings will produce the same level of accuracy and precision (using those terms defined by you in the Myths PDF) as Papywizard?"

I ask because I want to be certain that as far as possible we are 'comparing apples with apples'.

[javqui]

by javqui » Tue May 14, 2013 11:26 pm

Another was whether Kolor was going to develop a Panshoot Import wizard to handle your multi-pano XML files.
I think that's a real question.

If they want to include this feature they will do it. If they don’t want to include the feature, they will not do it.
We think that the feature could be useful for most users due a single file for a multi session job, help a little to organize the data by day, by job, by place, by customer, etc., instead by session only.
Reading the header, could be even better, there are valuable information for the stitching application like precision available, model of the camera and head, lens, GPS location, optimizations applied, filters, etc.

It sounds as if you now have your own XML data file definition/standard which enables you to record additional Panoshoot-specific information.

In this case it would seem to make sense to have a Panoshoot Import wizard; in which case it could be desigend to handle multi-pano XML data files.

In the meantime I don't quite understand why Panoshoot doesn't offer the option to record and store (on the device) multiple single pano XML data files which could be used directly by the current Papywizard Import wizard.

Mediavets,
I visit the forum of pandroidWiz and your are everywhere. Very Interesting.
I didn't see any comment of the style that you insert here, so is even more interesting.

Regarding the XML file, I explain the topic to Klaus:
You have the option to download a single file (multisession) or download multiple single files for each session.
is the user option.
There are a little difference since build97 in the shoot section. We are using the universally accepted XML standard for date and time.
The papywizard format use a non-standard format for date and time.

Javier

edited: fix a mistake with Klaus name.

Last edited by javqui on Wed May 15, 2013 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[javqui]

by javqui » Tue May 14, 2013 11:58 pm

hey mediavets.
Thanks for posting this results.

Welcome PandroidWiz to the Panogear world.

I would like to revisit an earlier question:

"You present two sets of Panshoot timings one for 'indoors' and the other for 'infinite focus'.

Which of these settings will produce the same level of accuracy and precision (using those terms defined by you in the Myths PDF) as Papywizard?"

I ask because I want to be certain that as far as possible we are 'comparing apples with apples'.

The overall error is the same as Papywizard
Internally, starting build 97, is a different situation:
the maximum error for indoors is 0.1 the first movement, and this error start going down on each movement with the self learning system (adaptative subsystem) up to 0.01 degrees.
Each learning step improve the speed, so if you use the panogear more and more, it will start going faster and faster each time, up to the limit that we set temporarily.
So the time lapse numbers in the myth document are conservatively high, and the difference with papywizard is even larger in reality. (I mention to you before that if we publish the real numbers will look unbelieved, so we are running with moderation at the moment)
This minimal internal error will be visible with the improved micro precision of build100

for The infinite focus case, the precision is 0.025 degrees as you can see in the myths document. by using a patent pending procedure as we mention in the document.

Javier

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Wed May 15, 2013 12:17 am

Mediavets,
I visit the forum of PandroidWiz and you are everywhere. Very Interesting.

As announced here:

http://www.kolor.com/forum/t17663-pandroidwiz-control-the-merlin-mount-with-an-android-phone-or-tablet

I was asked by the developers of PandroidWiz to assist initially with the English manual and later with the forum because Francis and Claude Vanhemmens are Belgians and native French speakers.

Claude was the developer of the Papymerlin Bluetooth adapter - which was a key element in the initial Kolor-SkiVR Panogear 'package' - and we had had some previous involvement during the development of Papywizard in trying to resolve problems with a UK supplier of RS232-TTL haradware before Papymerlin was developed. His son Francis has developed PandroidWiz based on an idea of Claude's.

I've also lately been working with third-parties to create a set of tools, for use with PandroidWiz, for generating Papywizard-compliant XML Preset files and for processing papywizard-compliant XML Data files.

PandroidWiz carries quite a lot of Papywizard 'DNA' so it was easy for me to understand and work with, although I'd no prior experience of the 'world of Android'.

I didn't see any comment of the style that you insert here, and is even more interesting.

You might say it's my role there to respond to questions and to explain the product, it's for others to ask the questiions and to offer feedback both positive and negative, and they do.

Regarding the XML file, I explain the topic to Mr. Klauss:

For the record, is name is Klaus Esser. (and my name is Andrew Stephens).

You have the option to download a single file (multisession) or download multiple single files for each session.
is the user option.

Oh, I thought you only store one single pano XML data file at a time on the device. It seems I was mistaken.

Last edited by mediavets on Wed May 15, 2013 12:21 am, edited 1 time in total.