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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:29 am 
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One more question (please don't kill me for it ;-)):
Is there any good Software for iPhones / iPads which do low to medium or even high quality interior panoramas ?

Please don't explain me theories about the nodalpoint, I know the facts behind it.
In my opinium it should be possible to create low to medium quality interior panoramas with those well designed devices because they have sensors for x- und y-device-axis and by software you could emit the right "nodalpoint".

What do you think about it ?

Kind regards
Alain


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:58 am 
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Alain wrote:
One more question (please don't kill me for it ;-)):
Is there any good Software for iPhones / iPads which do low to medium or even high quality interior panoramas ?

Judge for yourself:

http://www.fromparis.com/technical/iphone-fisheye-unexpensive-spherical-panoramas.html

http://www.gopano.com/iphone/

http://howto.cnet.com/8301-11310_39-57536396-285/mastering-panoramic-photography-in-ios-6/

https://itunes.apple.com/en/app/360-panorama/id377342622?mt=8

http://www.cloudburstresearch.com/autostitch/autostitch.html

http://www.imore.com/how-create-stunning-panoramic-photographs-your-iphone

http://www.pixeet.com/

http://the-gadgeteer.com/2012/02/29/kogeto-dot-panorama-iphone-44s-camera-adapter-review/

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/449163977/galileo-your-ios-in-motion

http://motrr.com/

http://the-gadgeteer.com/2011/10/24/studio-neat-glif-iphone-44s-tripod-mount-and-stand-review/

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:31 am 
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mediavets wrote:
If this is to be a commercial activity rather than hobby then in the first instance I suggest you invest in a fisheye lens - the Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye is good choice and with a D40 will provide a stitched spherical pano image of approx. 8000 x 4000 pixels - rather than new camera body (yiou can always invest in a higher res. sensor body later), and a decent pano head (plus the required software of course). An alternative lower cost fisheye would be the version of the Samyang 8mm Fisheye with the 'Nikon chip' to permit metering.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/11/25/samyang8nikon

So many possibilities, so many technical details, I hope the dust in my head is clearing soon ;-)
Is following model the same model you mention above (I'm not sure about the "Nikon Chip" you mention) ?
http://www.amazon.de/Samyang-mm-FISHEYE-FISHEYE-Objektiv-F-Anschluss/dp/B0046S68ZI/ref=lh_ni_t?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Or what about this one ? Is it as "good" as the Samyang ?
http://www.brack.ch/tabid/294/Default.aspx?ID=227909

Kind regards
Alain


Last edited by Alain on Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:00 am 
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Alain wrote:
mediavets wrote:
If this is to be a commercial activity rather than hobby then in the first instance I suggest you invest in a fisheye lens - the Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye is good choice and with a D40 will provide a stitched spherical pano image of approx. 8000 x 4000 pixels - rather than new camera body (yiou can always invest in a higher res. sensor body later), and a decent pano head (plus the required software of course). An alternative lower cost fisheye would be the version of the Samyang 8mm Fisheye with the 'Nikon chip' to permit metering.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/11/25/samyang8nikon

So many possibilities, so many technical details, I hope the dust in my head is clearing soon ;-)
Is following model the same model you mention above (I'm not sure about the "Nikon Chip" you mention) ?
http://www.amazon.de/Samyang-mm-FISHEYE-FISHEYE-Objektiv-F-Anschluss/dp/B0046S68ZI/ref=lh_ni_t?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Or what about this one ? Is it as "good" as the Samyang ?
http://www.brack.ch/tabid/294/Default.aspx?ID=227909

Kind regards
Alain

The original Samyang 8mm 3.5 fisheye was a manual only lens, focus and aperture could only be set manually; with no electrical connection between lens and camara body.

There are many re-branded versions of this lens, that Walimex is just one of them.

Similarly the lenses are made with several different mounts for Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Sigma.

The new variant of the Samyang lens with a Nikon mount described in the linked page - http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/11/25/samyang8nikon - has a CPU (chip) that enables support for auto exposure modes on Nikon DSLRs.

This makes the lens rather easier to use and ensures that EXIF data is written to image files, which is useful for APP/APG when stitching.

So I recommended the 'chip' version of the Samyang 8mm 3.5 fisheye for Nikon mounts rather than the non-chip version.

http://www.samyang-lens.co.uk/samyang-8mm-f35-fisheye-lens-nikon-ae.html

There also appears to be a variant of the chipped lens with a detachable lens hood - but it's not yet available?:

http://www.samyang-lens.co.uk/samyang-8mm-f35-fisheye-cs-dh-lens.html

................

Alternatively get the Nikkor AF 10.5mm f/2.8G ED DX Fisheye, probably the best fullframe fisheye lens for Nikon DX sensor bodies. I got mine used via eBay.

_________________
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:56 pm 
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Edit:
What means DSLR actually ?->Digital single-lens reflex, just found it :-)

Edit 2:
Is the Nikon D40 a "DSLR" ?->Yes it is, sais Wikipedia :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikon_D40


Last edited by Alain on Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:41 pm 
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Alain wrote:
One more question (please don't kill me for it ;-)):
Is there any good Software for iPhones / iPads which do low to medium or even high quality interior panoramas ?

Please don't explain me theories about the nodalpoint, I know the facts behind it.
In my opinium it should be possible to create low to medium quality interior panoramas with those well designed devices because they have sensors for x- und y-device-axis and by software you could emit the right "nodalpoint".

What do you think about it ?

Alain - there are two apps for iPhone/Pad: Microsoft´s "Photosynth" and "360". You can find both of them in the app-store.
They´re funny - but not good enough for commercial use. I use them sometimes for making some "scribbles" when i prepare a job.

In the final briefing with a client before the shooting that´s a fine feature. But more than a "sketchy" quality you wouldn´t get from them.

To be honest, Alain: your words about "sensors for x- und y-device-axis and by software you could emit the right "nodalpoint"" makes me wonder a bit . . ;)

best and good luck, Klaus

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:35 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
To be honest, Alain: your words about "sensors for x- und y-device-axis and by software you could emit the right "nodalpoint"" makes me wonder a bit . . ;)

;-)

Have a look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2th5qkbQ9WM

I mean it must be possible that the pano-software for iPad and Co. should be able to compute the "nodalpoint" (I would like to say "the right z-axis" instead of such scientific word like "nodalpoint". This word just suggest something very complicated which it is in fact not) in realtime and guides the user to the right standpoint.
It's also possible that I'm completely wrong thinking ;-)

Kind regards
Alain


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:34 pm 
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Bonjour Alain, bienvenue sur le forum !

Pour toutes les informations théoriques et pratiques, tu peux te reporter vers le site d' Arnaud Frich:
http://www.guide-photo-panoramique.com/sommaire-photo-panoramique.html
particulièrement pour le point nodal ...
http://www.guide-photo-panoramique.com/point-nodal.html

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Merlin + Papywizard on Windows 7 & Nokia 770 § N810 & Acer (Netbook) + PanoramaApp Androïd + Deltawave PapyMerlin BT + Autopano
Spherical Pano (180 x 360) with Canon 40D + Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 Zoom & Pôle Pano with Canon 5D MK2 and shaved Tokina 10-17 3.5-4.5 AF DX Fisheye
Gigapixel photography with Nikon D200 + Sigma 70-200 F 2.8 EX DG APO HSM


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:00 pm 
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Merci beaucoup Claude !

Ca fait l'impression d'être une site qui explice tous très simple et qui est très bien illustré.

Malheuresement mon français ne sufit pas pour comprendre tous :-)
Il'y a un pendent on allement ?
Peut-être aussi un livre ?

Salutations
Alain


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:26 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
Sorry again, Hans: that´s said too globally! As i wrote before: you can face interiors in which you have trouble to stitch the images because of large white or otherwise monochrome walls and ceilings.
Here you´re either lost without xml or you need much of experience to stitch the images manually nevertheless.

When I use a manual panohead then I also have the information of the "degreee-steps" of all axis.
Isn't it possible the add this additional information manually into the stitching software to solve problems with stitching of white, large walls or ceilings ?
In a mathematical point of view this way you have all informations for a perfect stitching or do I think wrong ?

Kind regards
Alain


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:49 pm 
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Alain wrote:
klausesser wrote:
Sorry again, Hans: that´s said too globally! As i wrote before: you can face interiors in which you have trouble to stitch the images because of large white or otherwise monochrome walls and ceilings.
Here you´re either lost without xml or you need much of experience to stitch the images manually nevertheless.

When I use a manual panohead then I also have the information of the "degreee-steps" of all axis.
Isn't it possible the add this additional information manually into the stitching software to solve problems with stitching of white, large walls or ceilings ?
In a mathematical point of view this way you have all informations for a perfect stitching or do I think wrong ?

Kind regards
Alain

If you are using a fisheye lens than the odds are that you will will have identifiable features in the images such that APP/APG can place control points and link/stitch the images even in interiors with quite a lot of plain walls and ceiling, especially if you give some thought as to where the overlaps will occur between images when shooting.

There are also some things you can do to assist the software in these instances:

1. When shooting place markers - such as Post-It notes- that will provide features for control point detection.

2. Shoot a pano in a location where there are excellent features for CP detection and when you have achieved a good stitch then - if you have APG rather than APP - save as a template and then apply that template when sticthing scenes shot using the same shooting pattern.

3. You could try manually placing those 'featureless' images in which the software failed to detect control points automatically. Force all the images into the pano then use the Panorama Editor to manually set the Yaw, Pitch and Roll values to place the image then hard link it. But most manuao heads are probably not quite precise enough for that always to produce an acceptable result.

But if you want to shoot hi-res spherical panos indoors using longer focal length lenses then a robotic pano head that records shooting positions - supported by APP/APG - will be a real advantage.

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:57 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
With a Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye you would require a min. of just 8 images with one exposure per shooting position.

If I understand it right, this means 6 pictures horizontal (portrait) and one of the top (90° upward) and one from the bottom (90° downward) ?

How do you suggest to do the downward one ? Freehand by holding the tripod down ?

Kind regards
Alain


Last edited by Alain on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Alain wrote:
I ordered now a Nodal Ninja 4 R-D16, it's a good start I guess.
I'll go step by step, for now I have to say thank you all for your recommendations, I see this is a huge field of technical possibilities and everyone has it's own point of view ;-)

Kind regards
Alain

Wise desicion. I recommend this set to all photographers I do the stitching for. You might want to add the nodal ninja nadir adapter which will allow you to easily make panoramas without a nadir hole faster then can be done with the motorised alternatives.

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I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:23 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
which will allow you to easily make panoramas without a nadir hole faster then can be done with the motorised alternatives.

No. Sorry. :cool:

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:53 pm 
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To all but Klaus cause I have long ago given up trying to have a logical and fruitfull discussion with him,

Some months ago I instructed a lady with no photographicall background at all how to use her Nodal Ninja 4 with nodal ninja nadir adapter, Canon 1100D and samyang 8 mm fisheye how to shoot a 360 * 180 degrees panorama.
Now she is sending me groups of 45-51 photos which I load into APG. After detection they have a RMS of about 4.0 and are 360 * 180. In both preview as in the rendered result the floor is looking perfectly without me having done any editing in about 75% of the panoramas she sends me. In the other 25% it takes me a bit longer.

The fact that Klaus is unable to have a perfect Nadir without editing is not to be confused with the fact that it would not be possible. I don't feel any need to convince him, but I don't want others to think it is not possible and think they need to use logo's or Photoshop.

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I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:37 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
To all but Klaus cause I have long ago given up trying to have a logical and fruitfull discussion with him,

Some months ago I instructed a lady with no photographicall background at all how to use her Nodal Ninja 4 with nodal ninja nadir adapter, Canon 1100D and samyang 8 mm fisheye how to shoot a 360 * 180 degrees panorama.
Now she is sending me groups of 45-51 photos which I load into APG. After detection they have a RMS of about 4.0 and are 360 * 180. In both preview as in the rendered result the floor is looking perfectly without me having done any editing in about 75% of the panoramas she sends me. In the other 25% it takes me a bit longer.

The fact that Klaus is unable to have a perfect Nadir without editing is not to be confused with the fact that it would not be possible. I don't feel any need to convince him, but I don't want others to think it is not possible and think they need to use logo's or Photoshop.

Hans - i learnd it´s quite useless to argue with you on a profound photographical-technical base.

So let me state just this:
There are several ways to achieve the same results with motorized heads in no longer time than using the NN-gadget.

Because you´re not a photographer and handling panoramas not as a photographer i understand you maybe don´t know such things. But i mean it´s somewhat hubristic insulting me by arguing a fact that you clearly seem to lack informations about.

"I have long ago given up trying to have a logical and fruitfull discussion with him" . . . :rolleyes: needs no commentation.

" . . but I don't want others to think it is not possible and think they need to use logo's or Photoshop."

This needs to be commented very well: i NEVER said that "it is not possible" and make people " think they need to use logo's or Photoshop".
So you´re stating absolute nonsense about what i´ve said - or you simply didn´t understand what i said - and you argue in a most amateurish manner.

What i said was: it´s in 95% of all cases easier to retouch the nadir-hole in Photoshop (using the clone-tool for example) than shooting an extra Nadir.
And that is clearly a fact - which every (somewhat advanced) panorama-photographer knows.

I refuse to being part of THAT ridiculous kind of discussion.

e.o.d.

Klaus

P.S.: look at the Nadirs in THIS panoramas (the two from the balkony):
http://360impressions.de/TausendfuesslerTour/

It would have bee ABSOLUTLY impossible to shoot a Nadir here - because the tripod-axis stood slanted @35°. Using a kind of NN-gadget the Nadir-shot
would have shown the walls behind us . . . .

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Last edited by klausesser on Fri Mar 29, 2013 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:08 pm 
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For those who are interested in cold facts.

Shooting 9 extra nadir photos (3 stacks of 3) takes an extra 3 to 4 minutes using the nodal ninja nadir adapter.
Processing them and removing the tripod takes 0 seconds extra time in 75% of the panoramas. APG does this automaticly. Ok, it does run a bit longer of course while detecting, loading and previewing as more files are included in the panorama.
in 25 % of the panoramas it takes me about 1 minute to place the red markes to solve the problem.

The balcony example is a rather extreme situation. I will try to make one as soon as I have my gear back, the lady I mentioned is using mine at the moment to earn her own gear.

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I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:14 pm 
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Alain wrote:
mediavets wrote:
With a Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye you would require a min. of just 8 images with one exposure per shooting position.

If I understand it right, this means 6 pictures horizontal (portrait) and one of the top (90° upward) and one from the bottom (90° downward) ?

How do you suggest to do the downward one ? Freehand by holding the tripod down ?

Kind regards
Alain

Freehand is possible, but requires some skills. Using a nodal ninja nadir adapter you can move the tripod around the central point on the floor and make 3 or 4 nadir photos (or stacks of photos)

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Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:30 pm 
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To be complete,

Total time to shoot this 51 images panorama (stacks of 3) was 9 minutes. Result is a 10912 * 5416 panorama.
Processing time is longer but that is computer time. My time editing and manipulating the panorama is also about 9 minutes.

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Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:33 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
For those who are interested in cold facts.
. . .
The balcony example is a rather extreme situation. I will try to make one as soon as I have my gear back, the lady I mentioned is using mine at the moment to earn her own gear.

Well - let´s talk "cold facts", Hans:

1) The balcony example shows what i do in at least 25% of all cases. The same is with other panorama-photographers. I state from what you write that you lack experience here.
2) Another case: DID YOU EVER shoot a Nadir using a 35mm, 50mm, 85mm or 105mm lens? I again state from what you write that you lack experience here.

Conclusion A): in both cases you CAN NOT shoot a Nadir with the same resolution as the rest.
Conclusion B): in both cases you very well can retouch the Nadir-hole if it´s as small as the head provides as a minimum.

Again i show a Nadir from the Panoneed:
35mm = 700MPx: http://360impressions.de/Nadir_35mm.jpg (it´s a test - we put away the bag and narrowed the tripod-legs in the final pano).

THIS are "cold facts" Hans. Don´t call for them if you don´t know about them.

Klaus

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Last edited by klausesser on Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:15 pm 
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To all readers beside Klaus,

The OP was asking about suggestions for interior panoramatours and did not give any indication he wanted to use focal lengths like 35 mm or longer. It is not hard to find examples and situations where certain techniques and approaches will fail, it is not what I consider logical and fruitfull. It is very well possible that my opinion is caused by an inability that I have. I don't think it matters much, we don't need to spend time on that here.

Everyone should do what works for him or herself and try to be successfull with that. My belief is that my approach is working rather good for me and I like to believe I am open for improvements. I better be because if something can save me some time or money then that is a good thing that is not to be missed.

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I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:17 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
It is not hard to find examples and situations where certain techniques and approaches will fail, it is not what I consider logical and fruitfull. It is very well possible that my opinion is caused by an inability that I have. I don't think it matters much, we don't need to spend time on that here.

To all readers - including Hans:

You made a global statement: "which will allow you to easily make panoramas without a nadir hole faster then can be done with the motorised alternatives."

I pointed out that´s not the case and wrote: "No. Sorry. :cool:".

You insulted me:
"To all but Klaus cause I have long ago given up trying to have a logical and fruitfull discussion with him"

and made a second false statement:
"The fact that Klaus is unable to have a perfect Nadir without editing is not to be confused with the fact that it would not be possible. I don't feel any need to convince him, but I don't want others to think it is not possible and think they need to use logo's or Photoshop."

I nowhere said something that could have made "others to think it is not possible and think they need to use logo's or Photoshop."
I just pointed out the pros and cons of both methods.

Do you name THAT behavior of yours "consider logical and fruitfull"?

I don´t.

Klaus

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:28 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
.................................
Do you name THAT behavior of yours "consider logical and fruitfull"?

Yes absolutely. If I would not I would not do so. The interactions with you I absolutely do not consider logical and fruitfull, that is why I try to avoid it.

klausesser wrote:
I don´t.

I know, that is why I try to avoid having a discussion with you. I wish you would do the same.

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I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


Last edited by HansKeesom on Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 6:05 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
klausesser wrote:
.................................
Do you name THAT behavior of yours "consider logical and fruitfull"?

Yes absolutely. If I would not I would not do so.

klausesser wrote:
I don´t.

I know, that is why I try to avoid having a discussion with you.

Discussions are the essence of any forum with special interests.
Diverging opinions are the salt in it.

Simply avoid a discussion-style insulting others.

Klaus

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:20 pm 
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Posts: 2114
klausesser wrote:
......

Simply avoid a discussion-style insulting others.

Klaus

I do my best, but as it turnes out it is not always possible to avoid someone is insulted.

_________________
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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