Hard- and Software suggestions for Interior Panoramatours ?

[Alain]

Hard- and Software suggestions for Interior Panoramatours ?

by Alain » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:39 am

Hi all

I'm very new to panoramic photography.

I wanna create virtual tours through buildings, mainly livings rooms (also smal rooms like bathrooms).
The goal is to present them online in high quality and view them with popular devices tuch as iPad, iPhone and so on.

Hardware:
-The minimum of a Cameramodel (I've a Nikon D40 but would buy a new model if necessary)?
-Will Panogear do it without problems ?
-The minimum of Computerhardware ?

Software:
-Software ?

Miscellaneous:
-What will be the filesize of an average Interior-Spherical Panorama to use on the Internet ?

Sorry if these questions may sound stupid/naiv in the ears of professional users.
I've read through the forum but the most answers go already to mutch into technical details.
I'm happy if you answer me in a non technical language as possible, thanks in advance ;-)

Kind regards
Alain

[Christian Stüben]

by Christian Stüben » Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:22 pm

Hardware:
-The minimum of a Cameramodel (I've a Nikon D40 but would buy a new model if necessary)?
-Will Panogear do it without problems ?
-The minimum of Computerhardware ?

Software:
-Software ?

Miscellaneous:
-What will be the filesize of an average Interior-Spherical Panorama to use on the Internet ?

Hi Alain,

d40 - perfect.

panogear - perfect. Only problem ... panogear/merlin has a very wide base, so nadir pictures must be shot separately. adjustment range for camera / lens is limited. d40 with standard or wide angle should work.

hardware - my old laptop (4 gb ram, mobile graphic, win 7 64) works. ok, it should have more ram for larger panos (my limit are panos with 680 pictures, average spherical panos shot with 24 mm have 28 pics, 100 mm spherical have about 280 shots), mobile grafics is slow, but it works perfect.

64 bit version of operating system, 4 gb ram is absolute minimum.

autopano pro is ok, autopano giga better. much better. for interactive pano viewer for internet you need panotour (pro!) too.

filesize for sperical shot with 24 mm / fullframe, the viewer contains 6200 distinct files, 154 mb file size.


greetings from germany
Chris

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:20 pm

Hi all

I'm very new to panoramic photography.

I wanna create virtual tours through buildings, mainly livings rooms (also smal rooms like bathrooms).
The goal is to present them online in high quality and view them with popular devices tuch as iPad, iPhone and so on.

Welcome to the forum.

Hardware:
-The minimum of a Cameramodel (I've a Nikon D40 but would buy a new model if necessary)?

The 6MP D40 is the minimum, I have one. The resolution of the final stitched panorama depends on the focal length of the lens you choose; the longer the focal length the higher the resolution of the stitched pano.

The longer the focal length the more images will be required, the more difficult the pano will be to stitch and render, and the more computer power you will need.

If this is to be a commercial activity rather than hobby then in the first instance I suggest you invest in a fisheye lens - the Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye is good choice and with a D40 will provide a stitched spherical pano image of approx. 8000 x 4000 pixels - rather than new camera body (yiou can always invest in a higher res. sensor body later), and a decent pano head (plus the required software of course). An alternative lower cost fisheye would be the version of the Samyang 8mm Fisheye with the 'Nikon chip' to permit metering.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/11/25/samyang8nikon

I couldn't recommend your using a the standard Nikon 18-55mm 'kit' zoom lens for your proposed pano shooting application.

Interior panos are amongst the most demanding due in part to the very wide dynamic range presented by natural light through windows versus artificial interior lighting.

The D40 offers no Automatic Exposure Bracketing (AEB) functionality, but very few cameras with in-built AEB can handle such wide dynamic ranges anyway. The 'ultimate' aid for extended exposure bracketing is the Promote Control.

Will Panogear do it without problems ?

As Christian mentioned the Panogear robotic pano head is not ideal for your proposed appliction (interior spehrical panos) because the nadir 'footprint' is much larger than that of a good manual pano head. If shooting with a fisheye lens, which requires relatively few shots to provide full 360x180 degree coverage, ther is no adavanatge in usinga robotic pano head.

The Nodal Ninja range of manual pano heads are very popular and capable.

IF you choose to use a D40 on the Panogear robotic head then you will need a gentLED-TRIGGER IR shutter trigger - to allow the cemar shutter to be triggered from the Panogear mount - because the D40 doesn't support a wired remote.

http://www.gentles.ltd.uk/gentled/trigger.htm

-The minimum of Computerhardware ?

It's desirable to use a computer withna 64-bit operarting system with as much RAM as you can afford; but if you stick with the D40 and a fisheye lens then in the first instance a 32-bit OS (such as Windows XP or 7/8-32bit) and 4GB RAM will suffice.

Software: -Software ?

Autopano or Autopano Pro for stitching and rendering.

Panotour Pro for creation of virtual tours that can be viewed on both Flash-enabled platforms (conventional desktops and laptops) and iDevices.

Miscellaneous: -What will be the filesize of an average Interior-Spherical Panorama to use on the Internet ?

That's a relatively meaningless question. The answer depends on the number and resolution of the sources pano images used to create the virtual tour. Panotour Pro automtically supports multi-resolution tiling enabling very large pano images to be viewed as readily as smaller images, but with more ability to zoom in to view details. This results in more files to be stored on the server, but server space and bandwidth is relatively inexpensive these days.

[Alain]

by Alain » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:14 pm

Thank you guys for those quick answers.

I've read that the Nodal Ninja 4 R-D16 isn't so bad, so I guess it will do it for my needs, right ?

About AEB (I'm not 100% sure what it exactly does):
If I shot a spherical panorama with three different exposure times, can Autopano combine the "best" shots together automaticly ?
I mean there wouldn't be any need of AEB ?

In which cases would you suggest a robotic pano head ?

Kind regards
Alain

[HansKeesom]

by HansKeesom » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:33 pm

Robotic heads are only using when using longer lenses, say starting 24 mm and when the nadir is not important for you anymore.

So problably outside (smaller) houses

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:24 pm

The 'ultimate' aid for extended exposure bracketing is the Promote Control.

better ask Promotesys first whether the D40 definitely supports extended bracketing!

best, Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[HansKeesom]

by HansKeesom » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:26 pm

The 'ultimate' aid for extended exposure bracketing is the Promote Control.

better ask Promotesys first whether the D40 definitely supports extended bracketing!

best, Klaus

Certainly as the promote control is not very cheap ;-)

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:28 pm

Robotic heads are only using when using longer lenses, say starting 24 mm and when the nadir is not important for you anymore.

So problably outside (smaller) houses

Not quite correct, Hans! Depends widely on the way the head is constructed. Good heads - like Seitz VR2, Rodeon or Panoneed - have their rotation axis
very close to the tripod axis.
This way the Nadir is very small - definitely not bigger than with any manual head!

best, Klaus

PS: here´s a Nadir from the Panoneed - the Nadir-hole is the black area in the center of the tripod
(forget the bag )

Last edited by klausesser on Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[HansKeesom]

by HansKeesom » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:34 pm

Robotic heads are only using when using longer lenses, say starting 24 mm and when the nadir is not important for you anymore.

So problably outside (smaller) houses

Not quite correct, Hans! Depends widely on the way the head is constructed. Good heads - like Seitz VR2, Rodeon or Panoneed - have their rotation axis
very close to the tripod axis.
This way the Nadir is very small - definitely not bigger than with any manual head!

best, Klaus

I am not debating your opinion anymore Klaus.

With my manual head and shooting technique I have NO Nadir hole.

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:35 pm

Thank you guys for those quick answers.

I've read that the Nodal Ninja 4 R-D16 isn't so bad, so I guess it will do it for my needs, right ?

That pano head should accomodate any lens up to 100mm equivalent - so up to about 65mm on a cropped sensor Nikon DX body.

The R-D16 rotator is 'overkill' really if you are going to be using a fisheye lens - far more click stop options that you need in such cirucmstances - but Nodal Ninja doesn't seem to offer the R-D5 with the NN4 for those who'll only use a fisheye lens.

About AEB (I'm not 100% sure what it exactly does):

AEB shoots a set (typically three) of different bracketed (+/0/-) exposures automatically.

When shooting panos the goal of exposure bracketing is to shoot a bracketed set of exposures at each shooting position that between them covers the entire dynamic range without overexposing highlights or underexposing shadows. The AEB range offered by most DSLRs is inadequate to achieve that goal when shooting spherical panos.

If I shot a spherical panorama with three different exposure times, can Autopano combine the "best" shots together automaticly ?

Sort of. APG has the ability to combine the images in a bracketed set (for each shooting position) using exposure fusion or HDR processing. However many people find they prefer the results they obtain by processing the bracketed exposures using third-party software before stitching the resulting 'fused'/HDR images.

I mean there wouldn't be any need of AEB ?

True, but it's tedious to shoot bracketed exposures manually and easy to forget where you are in the shooting sequence.

In which cases would you suggest a robotic pano head ?

They are most commonly used when shooting with longer focal length lenses - say 24mm equivalent up - most often for partial panos (panos with a FOV of less than 360 x 180). But some robotic heads - such as the Panogear/Merlin, Seitz VRDrive 2, and Panoneed - can also be used for shooting spherical panos.

Gigapan robotic heads are not suited to shooting spherical panos for many reasons; in particular they can only shoot a regular matrix/grid of images and when shooting spherical panos with longer focal length lenses it's desirable to reduce the number of images per row as you approach the zenith and nadir to avoid excessive overlapping.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:42 pm

Thank you guys for those quick answers.

I've read that the Nodal Ninja 4 R-D16 isn't so bad, so I guess it will do it for my needs, right ?

About AEB (I'm not 100% sure what it exactly does):
If I shot a spherical panorama with three different exposure times, can Autopano combine the "best" shots together automaticly ?
I mean there wouldn't be any need of AEB ?

In which cases would you suggest a robotic pano head ?

Kind regards
Alain

Hey Alain!

Depends on what you do and why you do it. Shooting indoor panos of rooms i nevertheless recomand a rabotic head IF you work commercially.
Indoors you´ll sometimes face white walls or ceilings - where the stitcher hardly or not can find control-points. That´s not very likely with fisheyes -
but it happens sometimes. I encountered such situations even when using a fisheye in Galleries or Mueseums with big white or black walls as well as in very small rooms like bathrooms
or so. In those cases it´s very helpfull to have cml-scripts from the head for positioning the images even when they have no features the stitcher can find control-points for.

But usually you wouldn´t need a robotic head from the start on - first get familiar with the theme "panorama-photography" before spending much money! If you can make a busiess from it
you then can spend money fort expensive gear still.

best, Klaus

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:47 pm

With my manual head and shooting technique I have NO Nadir hole.

You´re mixing things, Hans: of course you have a Nadir hole - but of course there are strategies to close it.
Either with shooting an exea Nadir-image or retouching it.

Fact is: a robotic head doesen´t necessarily produce a bigger Nadir than a manual head. THAT was the claim.

best, Klaus

[Alain]

by Alain » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:13 pm

One thing I don't understand at the moment.

You mention "Seitz VR2, Rodeon or Panoneed", are these those expensive but good robotic pano heads ?
I guess Panogear is a cheap solution, right ?
Whats the difference to the expensive solutions ?
What's the price of a good robotic pano head (those you would recommend for commercial business) ?

Kind regards
Alain

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:40 pm

One thing I don't understand at the moment.

You mention "Seitz VR2, Rodeon or Panoneed", are these those expensive but good robotic pano heads ?

Yes.

I guess Panogear is a cheap solution, right ?

Correct. But I prefer 'relatively low cost' rather than 'cheap' as a descriptor.

Whats the difference to the expensive solutions ?

The Panogear is not a purpose designed and built robotic panorama head, it is a low cost astrotelescope mount that with special software (papywizard) and interface hardware, or the T&C/Panogear Touch controller, can be used to shoot panoramas.

The Panogear head has adequate performance for many applications, but it is not as fast nor as precise as one of the (much) more expensive purpose-designed and built robotic pano heads, such as those you mentioned.

The panogear head is not suitable out of the box for all camera/lens combinations IF you wish to mount the camera/lesn at the NPP (essnetial wehne shooting spehrical panos indoors) becaus ethere is limited scop for adjustment on the yaw axis. The heieght of teh vertical arm can also be limiting when shootingh spehrrical apnos.

The Panogear/Merlin mount can handle a lower max. load than the more expensive heads.

The Panoneed and Seitz VRDrive 2 both have considerably smaller nadir footprints that the Panogear.

I believe that both the Seitz VRDrive 2 and the Panoneed offer greater battery autonomy from their internal batteries than the Panogear if used with internal batteries.

What's the price of a good robotic pano head (those you would recommend for commercial business) ?

Kind regards
Alain

You can find the prices of the Seitz VRDrive 2 and Rodeon robotic heads on their respective web sites.

The Panoneed robotic head is not yet available on the market but I believe it will be priced around the Euros 2,000 mark.

So as you can see the Panogear system offers exceptional bang-for-the-buck if you can accept it's limitations; and many people have used it for commercial work.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:02 pm

So as you can see the Panogear system offers exceptional bang-for-the-buck if you can accept it's limitations; and many people have used it for commercial work.

Right! But not for spherical interior panoramas using fisheyes. Here i definitely would suggest a manual head - it´s faster and provides a smaller Nadir resp. comes with a device, like the option for the NN, you can easily shoot an extra Nadir image to integrate in your stitch.

The Merlin is fine starting on from a 20mm rect. lens - i used it for two years this way. But doing interiors it´s rather challenging in the beginning having to stitch about 48 shots instead of about 7 on a crop camera . . . plus at least 3-step bracketing means 144 shots . . . .

And: using a wideangle instead of a fisheye for interior most likely means to have lots more featureless images!

best, Klaus

[Alain]

by Alain » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:22 pm

"The Merlin" is the Kolor Panogear right ? Why two names for the same product, it confuses me a little ;-)

"Promote Control" allows me "Bracketing" on my Nikon D40 right ?
"Promote Control" is an external device for my camera which alows me to shot 3 different exposure times automaticly, right ?

I cannot find the "Seitz VRDrive 2" in Google. It always links me to http://www.roundshot.ch and I can't find this model there. Is it the "Roundshot VR Drive" ? Another name again for the same model ?
I they also seem not to be interested to communicate prices.

Kind regards
Alain

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:18 pm

"The Merlin" is the Kolor Panogear right ? Why two names for the same product, it confuses me a little ;-)

"Promote Control" allows me "Bracketing" on my Nikon D40 right ?
"Promote Control" is an external device for my camera which alows me to shot 3 different exposure times automaticly, right ?

I cannot find the "Seitz VRDrive 2" in Google. It always links me to http://www.roundshot.ch and I can't find this model there. Is it the "Roundshot VR Drive" ? Another name again for the same model ?
I they also seem not to be interested to communicate prices.

Kind regards
Alain

Alain - better write to Promote-Systems to ask for compatibility of the extended bracketing with the D40. I doubt it will work! They have a compatibility-site, but it´s not abolutely clear to me whether the Nikon D40 is compatible not only regarding the timelapse and other functions but also the extended bracketing, because the D40 doesn´t provide ANY internal AEB imho.

best, Klaus

PS: http://www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/internet/en/application/d77/d78/f79.cfm

[HansKeesom]

by HansKeesom » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:19 pm

"The Merlin" is the Kolor Panogear right ? Why two names for the same product, it confuses me a little ;-)

"Promote Control" allows me "Bracketing" on my Nikon D40 right ?
"Promote Control" is an external device for my camera which alows me to shot 3 different exposure times automaticly, right ?

I cannot find the "Seitz VRDrive 2" in Google. It always links me to http://www.roundshot.ch and I can't find this model there. Is it the "Roundshot VR Drive" ? Another name again for the same model ?
I they also seem not to be interested to communicate prices.

Kind regards
Alain

Hi Alain,

the promote control is indeed an external device that allows extended bracketing and other things with a number of camera's. An alternative is to look for software like magic lantern. In both cases check to make sure what it will do for your camera.

Robotic heads costs you anything from 400 euro up to thousands of euro's. Nice toys for the boys but unnecesarry and unwanted when you make fisheye panoramas indoors. You are just adding weight and more fragile technology that can fail at the wrong moment. I advice to get a good manual head like Nodal Ninja 4 with a nadir adapter and a good rotator (like the RD-16) and you have a system that will do all these fisheye shots for many years to came without failure..

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:27 pm

"The Merlin" is the Kolor Panogear right ? Why two names for the same product, it confuses me a little ;-)

The manufacturer's product name for the basic astrotelescope mount when sold in Europe is the Merlin:
http://www.sherwoods-photo.com/acuter_spottingscope/acuter_merlin_mount_fs.htm

Kolor markets a kit complete with third-party accessories (including Bluetooth-TTL interface device, enhanced rechargeable lithium ion battery system, charger and camera rail) under the Panogear brand name.:

http://www.kolor.com/buy/photo-hardware/motorized-head/kolor-panogear-motorized-panoramic-head-gigapixel-4.html

"Promote Control" allows me "Bracketing" on my Nikon D40 right ?

According to the manufactuere's web site it is compatible with the D40 - but before shelling out for one I would suggest you confirm with them that you can do what tou weant with it using your D40 (or whatver alternative DSLR you may choose).

"Promote Control" is an external device for my camera which alows me to shot 3 different exposure times automaticly, right ?

The Promote control is an external device that can do various things, some of it's capabilities depend on the type of camea you have. One of the things a Promote Control can do with a supported brand/model of DSLR is to faciltate extended exposure bracketing, it can handle many more that three bracketed exposures.

But .... I don't think it would be top of my list of equipment if I was just starting out in pano shooting.

My advice would be first get a fullframe fisheye lens that works with your existing D40 such as the Nikkor 10.5mm or the Samyang 8mm that I mentoned previously), a decent manual pano head (Nodal Ninja is a safe choice) and decent tripod desirably with a levelling centre column, plus the software to stich the images, to edit the stitched image, and to create virtual tours.

Be aware that (whatever gear you have) it takes time and experience to become competent at shooting panos, producing excellent results and creating attractive and effective virtual tours.

It's proven very difficult to make a living shooting real estate panos/tours commercially in most markets around the world - is that your plan?

I cannot find the "Seitz VRDrive 2" in Google. It always links me to http://www.roundshot.ch and I can't find this model there. Is it the "Roundshot VR Drive" ? Another name again for the same model ?

http://www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/internet/en/application/d77/d78/f79.cfm

Yes, this is the second generation that for a while they named the VRDrive 2.

I they also seem not to be interested to communicate prices.

See: http://shop.roundshot.ch/online/default.cfm?language=3

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:44 pm

Nice toys for the boys but unnecesarry and unwanted when you make fisheye panoramas indoors. You are just adding weight and more fragile technology that can fail at the wrong moment.

Sorry again, Hans: that´s said too globally! As i wrote before: you can face interiors in which you have trouble to stitch the images because of large white or otherwise monochrome walls and ceilings.
Here you´re either lost without xml or you need much of experience to stitch the images manually nevertheless.

The technology is in NO WAY "more fragile" - but it definitely adds some weight . . .

For shooting interior panos *commercially* it´s no question to me that a motorized head which writes XML definitely is preferable. Nobody shooting interiors comercially will always stick
to a fisheye - most likely one will need more resolution, which means more focal-length. And here at least you´ll NEED a motorized head which writes XML.

It´s - as it is always - a question of how one starts to make a business. My suggestion too - ane here i fully agree to you - is to start with a manual head and to look what happens business-wise.
If you realize you can make a business: a motorized head writing xml is essential.
If you realize it´s not so well doing business-wise: you wouldn´t need a motorized head at all.
Quite simple, is it.

Besides: to my knowledge Nikon D40 isn´t supported by ML. But maybe i´m wrong!

best, Klaus

[HansKeesom]

by HansKeesom » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:04 pm

But .... I don't think it would be top of my list of equipment if I was just starting out in pano shooting.

My advice would be first get a fullframe fisheye lens that works with your existing D40 such as the Nikkor 10.5mm or the Samyang 8mm that I mentoned previously), a decent manual pano head (Nodal Ninja is a safe choice) and decent tripod desirably with a levelling centre column, plus the software to stich the images, to edit the stitched image, and to create virtual tours.

Be aware that (whatever gear you have) it takes time and experience to become competent at shooting panos, producing excellent results and creating attractive and effective virtual tours.

It's proven very difficult to make a living shooting real estate panos/tours commercially in most markets around the world - is that your plan?

From the original post that is exactly what he plans to do. Not a market where you can easily charge high prices unless you are really able to show higher 'quality' then other photographers. Bracketing, with or without promote control, can give you an edge. Robotic heads not to my opinion, no customer every asked me why I was not using a robotic head....

[Alain]

by Alain » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:17 pm

I ordered now a Nodal Ninja 4 R-D16, it's a good start I guess.
I'll go step by step, for now I have to say thank you all for your recommendations, I see this is a huge field of technical possibilities and everyone has it's own point of view ;-)

Kind regards
Alain

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:32 pm

I ordered now a Nodal Ninja 4 R-D16, it's a good start I guess.

And what camera and lens combination do you plan to use with it?

What tripod do you have?

[Alain]

by Alain » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:54 pm

I've the standard lens 18- 55mm of the Nikon D40.
The tripod is this one: http://www.brack.ch/tabid/294/Default.aspx?ID=175958

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:15 pm

I've the standard lens 18- 55mm of the Nikon D40.

This database will show you how many shots you will need to cover a 360 x180 FOV with your lens at 18mm:

http://www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/

Minimum (1.5x): N, 10 images every 36° at -45° pitch, 10 images every 36° at 0° pitch, 10 images every 36° at +45° pitch, Z

In other words a min. of 32 images, with a single exposure per shooting position. You will also have to be careful to avoid zoom or focus creep at higher +/- pitch angles.

With a Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye you would require a min. of just 8 images with one exposure per shooting position.

The tripod is this one: http://www.brack.ch/tabid/294/Default.aspx?ID=175958

If you can remove the pano head from the tripod, do so and attach your NN4 directly to the centre column.

A tripod with a levelling centre column makes life even easier, which is important if you are hoping to shoot a lot of panos quickly:

http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/oxfordtour/Tutorial/index.asp?ID=25&pagename=My%20Tripod%20Setup