[papywizard v2] Annoncement, feedback, bug report

[RobSherratt]

by RobSherratt » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:57 pm

Hello Claude,

Thanks for your reply. My question is complex, but I hope you will be willing to help.

I ordered a SkyWatcher AllView head which comes with a new controller with comprehensive pano photography modes. It should be delivered some time in the next 4 weeks. The controller does not generate XML positioning files, and I know that Papywizard can do this in conjunction with the Merlin head.

The advice Klaus Esser kindly gave me is that XML positioning files are necessary for use with Autopano Pro or PTGui Pro in order to get the best possible results especially with Gigapixel HDR panos. The XML generation remains static for particular configurations, and can be done "at home". The downside if I was to use Papywizard in the field, would be the cost and effort of buying a compatible handheld device, RS232-BT adapter etc. I think I may have an alternative, at least "in theory".

Here is my current plan: I can capture the coordinates displayed in the AllView controller LCD screen (using my iPhone), and write spreadsheet-based software and macros to take a list of those coordinates and generate the necessary XML, compatible with the output from Papywizard. I can do all the trial and error "in the lab", and then just rely on using the AllView controller in the field with configurations that I have previously sorted out "in the lab".

a) the documentation I was hoping to find is a definition of the XML file format, plus correlation of the XML to the 3-axis position of the Merlin head and camera x-y view angles at the time a picture is taken.
b) can I provide a list of 3-axis positioning coordinates for input to Papywizard, allowing Papywizard to generate the XML?

Would you or maybe Frédéric be willing to help me with either (a) or (b) ?

Best regards,
Rob

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:36 pm

The advice Klaus Esser kindly gave me is that XML positioning files are necessary for use with Autopano Pro or PTGui Pro in order to get the best possible results especially with Gigapixel HDR panos.

Right: but it´s not absolutely necessary though it´s definitely preferable when you have sky-images or otherwise featureless images. Generating xml always must be in combination with the real shooting.
Doing a sphere it´s easy: here the positions depend only on the lens/sensor.
But shooting Gigapixels usually you set a start- and an end-point - the positions in between are calculated then depending also on lens/sensor. But as said you need to define a start- and an end-point - which
you don´t need with spheres.

best, Klaus

[mediavets]

by mediavets » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:51 pm

Hello Claude,

Thanks for your reply. My question is complex, but I hope you will be willing to help.

I ordered a SkyWatcher AllView head which comes with a new controller with comprehensive pano photography modes. It should be delivered some time in the next 4 weeks. The controller does not generate XML positioning files, and I know that Papywizard can do this in conjunction with the Merlin head.

The advice Klaus Esser kindly gave me is that XML positioning files are necessary for use with Autopano Pro or PTGui Pro in order to get the best possible results especially with Gigapixel HDR panos.

I may be mistaken but as far as I know PTGui Pro cannot make use of Papywizard-compatible XML data files.

The XML generation remains static for particular configurations, and can be done "at home". The downside if I was to use Papywizard in the field, would be the cost and effort of buying a compatible handheld device, RS232-BT adapter etc.

A Nokia N800 or N810 Internet tablet and the Deltawave PapyMerlin Bluetooth adapter wouldn't cost you that much.

a) the documentation I was hoping to find is a definition of the XML file format, plus correlation of the XML to the 3-axis position of the Merlin head and camera x-y view angles at the time a picture is taken.

You can find the file format here:
http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Panohead_XML_data_file

b) can I provide a list of 3-axis positioning coordinates for input to Papywizard, allowing Papywizard to generate the XML?

No.

[RobSherratt]

by RobSherratt » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:57 pm

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for your replies.

I may be mistaken but as far as I know PTGui Pro cannot make use of Papywizard-compatible XML data files.

I think it's been added in the latest version (scroll to bottom) ...
http://www.ptgui.com/examples/creating_gigapixel_panoramas_with_a_robotic_panohead.html

A Nokia N800 or N810 Internet tablet and the Deltawave PapyMerlin Bluetooth adapter wouldn't cost you that much.

Are the Nokia tablets the only ones possible, or would e.g. a small Android tablet with BT be an alternative? Is there a list of tested devices / OS versions it works on?
I guess there's no App version for my iPhone or iPad on the way is there? ...
Are the Merlin serial interface and the AllView controller serial interface identical, and has Papywizard been confirmed to work with the AllView head?

You can find the file format here: http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Panohead_XML_data_file

Is that the format for a Preset XML file (for controlling Papywizard) or is it the format of the XML output file that's exported to AutoPano, or are they both the same format?
Note the XML shows: <papywizard version="b"> whereas I think it should read <papywizard version="c">

Regards,
Rob

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:08 am

Are the Nokia tablets the only ones possible, or would e.g. a small Android tablet with BT be an alternative? Is there a list of tested devices / OS versions it works on?
I guess there's no App version for my iPhone or iPad on the way is there? ...

PapyWizard runs on PC/Netbook/Notebook and on Nokia N800/810 (Linux). That´s it afaik.

I strongly suggest to think about a T&C handheld. But i don´t know whether it´s compatible to the Allview.
If it´s not i´m afraid the Allview is kind of dead-end regarding controlling - at least in Europe.

best, Klaus

[RobSherratt]

by RobSherratt » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:01 am

Generating xml always must be in combination with the real shooting. Doing a sphere it´s easy: here the positions depend only on the lens/sensor. But shooting Gigapixels usually you set a start- and an end-point - the positions in between are calculated then depending also on lens/sensor. But as said you need to define a start- and an end-point - which you don´t need with spheres.

Hi Klaus,

Thanks for your reply. If I were to use the exact same "preset configuration" in Papywizard to take six different Gigapixel panoramas in six geographically different locations, won't the number of rows, number of images per row, and the XML data that is sent to Autopano pro be 100% identical for each of the six panoramas? I think Papywizard is generating XML data values by "dead reckoning" and that it's 100% repeatable if the user preset remains the same. If that is not the case, then what "real time" sensor inputs are taken into account?

Regards,
Rob

[RobSherratt]

by RobSherratt » Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:29 am

PapyWizard runs on PC/Netbook/Notebook and on Nokia N800/810 (Linux). That´s it afaik.
I strongly suggest to think about a T&C handheld. But i don´t know whether it´s compatible to the Allview.
If it´s not i´m afraid the Allview is kind of dead-end regarding controlling - at least in Europe.

Hi Klaus,

I'll test the Allview with Papywizard running on my desktop PC and report back. I know Papywizard mode has already been tested by the AllView developers. It comes with an RS232 cable you just plug directly into a PC. Is that the same way you connect your Merlin to a PC or are additional interfaces e.g. BT or TTL conversion needed? I don't plan to buy a T&C handheld, but if T&C want to lend me one for a day or two, then I will test it and report back.

I think the AllView controller (SynScan AZ interface) will be fine for what I need to do, especially if I can resolve the XML shortcoming. If I can't resolve it, then I will get a portable device for running Papywizard in the field. Here's what the user manual says about the controller interface:

Another feature of SynScan AZ is the ability to connect to a computer via a serial communication cable. Many commercially available planetarium software programs can be used to control the mount. Any SynScan AZ hand control version 3.00 and later is compatible with the Celestron® NexStar™ 5i/8i and NexStar™ GPS command protocol.

The control protocol is documented on page 40 of the AllView user guide, download here. Can you point me to the control protocol definition for the Merlin head, and I'll check if they are identical?
http://www.celestron.com/c3/support3/index.php?_m=downloads&_a=downloadfile&downloaditemid=732

Thanks,
Rob

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:04 pm

Thanks for your reply. If I were to use the exact same "preset configuration" in Papywizard to take six different Gigapixel panoramas in six geographically different locations, won't the number of rows, number of images per row, and the XML data that is sent to Autopano pro be 100% identical for each of the six panoramas? I think Papywizard is generating XML data values by "dead reckoning" and that it's 100% repeatable if the user preset remains the same. If that is not the case, then what "real time" sensor inputs are taken into account?

Regards,
Rob

Hey Rob!

Some basics: when you shoot a mosaic gigapixel you view at your scene, choose a point where to start and then a point where to end. Right?
The steps between the two points are calculated by the controller depending on where you start and where you end. That´s what PapyWizard does and that´s what the TC does.

Shootings spheres always followes the same pattern, related tà³ the lens and sensor. So you can pre-define a pattern - because a sphere is a sphere. Always and anywhere.

In angle-mode it´s easier: the TC works in a way that it starts from the center of the FOV going left and right and up and down. To fix a center of a scene easily can be done by using a viewing-mask, define a centerpoint, aim the camera to it and start. So you can very well use a pre-defined pattern for that.

A pre-defined mosaic pattern you start on a start- and an end-point - using it on different scenes that means just guessing: you don´t have an exact orientation where to start and where to end - where to aim the camera to. I guess that´s possible also . . . but i wonder whether you would get what you want . .
So in that case a pre-defined pattern wouldn´t be of any help in my eyes.

best, Klaus

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:10 pm

Can you point me to the control protocol definition for the Merlin head, and I'll check if they are identical?

I can post the xml from the TC (it´s PapyWizard-compatible) for an 85mm on fullframe in the afternoon.

best, Klaus

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:16 pm

Can you point me to the control protocol definition for the Merlin head, and I'll check if they are identical?

Don´t know whether it can help you - here is a Panoneed/TC PapyWizard compatible xml from an 85mm lens on FX:

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<papywizard version="a">
    <header>
        <general>
            <title>
                             
            </title>
            <gps>
                                     
            </gps>
            <comment>
                Generated by panoneed       
            </comment>
        </general>
        <shooting mode="sphere">
            <headOrientation>
                up
            </headOrientation>
            <cameraOrientation>
               portrait
            </cameraOrientation>
            <stabilizationDelay>
                0.5
            </stabilizationDelay>
            <startTime>
        22:20:24 27.08.2012         
            </startTime>
            <endTime>
                                   
            </endTime>
        </shooting>
        <camera>
            <timeValue>
                1.0
            </timeValue>
            <bracketing intent="exposure" nbPicts="001"/>
            <sensor coef="   " ratio="   "/>
        </camera>
        <lens type="rectilinear">
            <focal>
                85.0         
            </focal>
        </lens>
        <preset name="              "/>
    </header>
    <shoot>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0001">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+013.8"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0002">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+041.5"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0003">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+069.2"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0004">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+096.9"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0005">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+124.6"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0006">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+152.3"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0007">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+180.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0008">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+207.7"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0009">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+235.4"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0010">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+263.1"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0011">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+290.8"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0012">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+318.5"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0013">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="-074.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+346.2"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0014">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+351.4"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0015">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+334.3"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0016">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+317.1"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0017">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+300.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0018">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+282.8"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0019">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+265.7"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0020">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+248.6"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0021">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+231.4"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0022">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+214.3"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0023">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+197.1"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0024">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+180.0"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0025">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+162.9"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0026">
            <time>
                                   
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            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+145.7"/>
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        <pict bracket="001" id="0027">
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        <pict bracket="001" id="0028">
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        <pict bracket="001" id="0031">
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            <position pitch="-055.3" roll="90.0" yaw="+060.0"/>
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        <pict bracket="001" id="0032">
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            <position pitch="+075.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+263.1"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0211">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="+075.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+290.8"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0212">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="+075.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+318.5"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0213">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="+075.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+346.2"/>
        </pict>
        <pict bracket="001" id="0214">
            <time>
                                   
            </time>
            <position pitch="+090.0" roll="90.0" yaw="+180.0"/>
        </pict>
    </shoot>
</papywizard>

best, Klaus

[claudevh]

by claudevh » Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:43 pm

Hello Rob.

wrote:

Can you point me to the control protocol definition for the Merlin head, and I'll check if they are identical?

I can confirm that the Allview Mount use exactly the same control protocol !

If you use a PC with a "Keyspan" key (RS232/USB) connected to the RS232 port of the hand-controler, you will be able to use the "direct PC mode" via the hand controler and run Papywizard to control the AllView !

[RobSherratt]

by RobSherratt » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:34 pm

Hi Claude, Andrew and Klaus,

I want to thank you for your most helpful replies. Currently the only way to use the Allview controller is in "pass through" mode using Papywizard or T&C as a replacement controller. Phill Butte has posted evidence on the "Big Merlin" thread that the AllView controller firmware is definitely faulty when used to take panoramic photos.

http://www.kolor.com/forum/t11240-the-big-merlin-allview-mount

I'm also disappointed to read from Phill about Celestron's current stance in this matter which appears to deny consumer rights in the USA. Celestron and their vendor in the USA (HandsOnOptics) have an obligation to either fix the controller firmware in a timely way, or to collect their faulty goods and refund my purchase. So those are the only two options I am currently pursuing. I posted copies of my correspondence with both Celestron and with HandsOnOptics on the "Big Merlin" thread in the hope that progressing this in an open and transparent way will result in an acceptable response from the suppliers. I hope I am not contravening any of the forum rules, and I thank you again for your advice and expertise, and for the nice way in which you run this forum.

Feel free to send me an email or private message if I have done anything to cause any upset to the forum owners or admins.

Best regards,
Rob

[RobSherratt]

by RobSherratt » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:44 pm

Don´t know whether it can help you - here is a Panoneed/TC PapyWizard compatible xml from an 85mm lens on FX:

Hi Klaus,

I think this XML example will help me a lot in future, and thanks for posting it. I note you may be using quite an old version of Papywizard, the current version generates <papywizard version="c"> XML. Is there some problem with the latest version or is it a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Thanks,
Rob

[phill.butte]

by phill.butte » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:06 am

I've done some more testing on the AllView head after receiving a KeySpan USB to RS232 Adapter today and I can report:
1. The TrippLite KeySpan Adapter USA-19HS will work with the AllView head using PapyWizard 2.1.20 on a Windows 7 Pro 32bit laptop.
2. You must download the Windows 7 KeySpan adapter drivers from the Tripplite website, the ones on the included CD are for earlier versions of Windows.
3. Versions of PapyWizard after 2.1.20 do not work with the AllView on Windows 7 Pro or Windows XP Pro, as soon as a mosaic starts the second row the pitch motor goes into an uncrolled spin.
4. The XML generated by PapyWizard is correctly recognized by PTGui pro and does a good on initial alignment. You will still need to do an "Align Images". But a least the sky/clouds come out good even if there are no control points.

Based on my testing I think I'll keep the AllView and not send it back. Now that I have it working on a laptop that has a couple hours of battery life and only weighs a few pounds, I think I prefer using PapyWizard versus using the native controller, even if it were to work correctly. Getting the images of the sky to line up when stitching saves me hours of adding manual control points on gigapixel panos.

[RobSherratt]

by RobSherratt » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:20 pm

I've done some more testing on the AllView head after receiving a KeySpan USB to RS232 Adapter today and I can report:
1. The TrippLite KeySpan Adapter USA-19HS will work with the AllView head using PapyWizard 2.1.20 on a Windows 7 Pro 32bit laptop.
2. You must download the Windows 7 KeySpan adapter drivers from the Tripplite website, the ones on the included CD are for earlier versions of Windows.
3. Versions of PapyWizard after 2.1.20 do not work with the AllView on Windows 7 Pro or Windows XP Pro, as soon as a mosaic starts the second row the pitch motor goes into an uncrolled spin.
4. The XML generated by PapyWizard is correctly recognized by PTGui pro and does a good on initial alignment. You will still need to do an "Align Images". But a least the sky/clouds come out good even if there are no control points.

Based on my testing I think I'll keep the AllView and not send it back. Now that I have it working on a laptop that has a couple hours of battery life and only weighs a few pounds, I think I prefer using PapyWizard versus using the native controller, even if it were to work correctly. Getting the images of the sky to line up when stitching saves me hours of adding manual control points on gigapixel panos.

Thanks for the update Phill.

Does anyone on this forum have any idea what change in later versions of PapyWizard might cause the pano head to go into an uncontrolled spin? I thought there was an earlier confirmation that there were no issues running PapyWizard with the AllView motorized head...

I'm now starting my own testing - the AllView arrived today, and the Greek customs did not charge me any duties! I'm very pleased with the quality of the hardware.

[RobSherratt]

by RobSherratt » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:23 pm

Kilian Eisenegger has very kindly sent me a German language version of his VBA/Excel Papywizard-compatible "XML generator" spreadsheet. This has the potential to generate the correct "Allview Compatible" and "PapyWizard compatible" XML files for use with AutoPano and PTGui ... that is, assuming the AllView controller firmware issues will be resolved by Celestron.

I'm at the moment modifying his VBA software to accept as input parameters the exact same parameters that are displayed on the AllView controller. I've already translated everything from German to English and made some of the necessary changes. Then I have to align the XML generated image coordinates with the image coordinates generated by the AllView controller, for which I will need the positioning specification I requested from the AllView developers. Once the job is done once, the spreadsheet will work with all combinations of "Easy Pano" and "Preset Pano" settings on the AllView controller. All the user has to do is to make a note "in the field" of the settings used for any shooting sequence, and then when "back home", enter the settings into the new version of Kilian Eisenegger's XML generator, and use the resulting XML code with either AutoPano or PTGui to align the images exactly.

I am hoping Kilian will agree to make this freely available to users of the AllView motorized head and the AllView controller. I am willing to provide the necessary support for the VBA code/ spreadsheet to English Language users. Obviously it requires the user to have a version of Microsoft Excel to open and use it. I will publish more details after development is complete and it has been tested for exact alignment of images with the AllView controller.

Last edited by RobSherratt on Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[claudevh]

by claudevh » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:43 pm

Thank-you for sharing Rob and Phill !

[travel2vietnam]

by travel2vietnam » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:01 am

Windows version installs fine. First run fails because it can't find the papywizard.conf file but runs fine after that. Could you include a dummy file for the system to find to avoid the fail?

I haven't checked the n800 version yet because it's 200 miles away lol

best regards

[fma38]

by fma38 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:08 am

There is a config file! But it seems that some env. vars are not correctly set when the installer launch Papywizard, so it can't find the config file.