The term "3D" and interactive panoramas.

[klausesser]

The term "3D" and interactive panoramas.

by klausesser » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:19 am

Hi!

Sometimes clients talk of "3D-animation" when it comes to interactive 360x180° panoramas.

That´s kind of a problem - because it´s no "3D animation" at all.

So i started to
1) avoid the term "3D" in combination with interactive panoramas and
2) i always explain the difference to clients.

Why?

3D-animation offers less than interactive panoramas: usually they´re not interactive.
At the same time they can offer more than interactive panoramas: building a (!)real(!) 3D-animation you have very much more freedom in what you do - it´s virtual and there are no limits (well virtually no limits).
A whole industry lives 3D abd it´s big, big business.

When i say: 3D-animation usually isn´t interactive the point is "usually". You can make 3D-construction/animation interactive of course by generating an interactve camera (or more of them) for interactively flying around inside an object or outside the object or generate a (truly) virtual tour . . resp. both.

The point is: you can´t do it - at least without immense and most expensive efforts - with photographed images as we do it for our panoramas or our object-vr.

So when the client thinks he can get interactive 3D animation his expectations will be very specific . . and fulfilling this expectation becomes very expensive - or very mediocre.

I´d like to initiate a discussion about the theme "3D" related to interactive panoramas here - because it´s my opinion that we should be careful using the term "3D" in combination
with interactive panoramas.

Of course i´m NOT referring to displaying "3D objects" inside a panorama using an extra window like its done often . . . usually looking painstakingly mediocre as i saw one recently . .

If it´s done really good it´s very helpfull selling a product. But as said: i think we need to clear the terms here for the good of what we communicate to clients.

I´m living in the world of advertising for decades now - i have developed a feel what´s clever to communicate to clients and what´s not so clever . .

Offering them things which you can not fulfill in the end definitely is deadly - be it by using an unclear terminilogy and raising the wrong expectations.

I hope i could explain what i mean in good speech - hope we can have a constructive discussion.

IF that points are vital for you at all dealing with your clients.

best, Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:37 am

In fact, Destiny, i very well know what´s "3D" meaning in real life and in terms of visualization and what´s not . . . and exactly that might be the problem
In 3D applications it´s very clear what 3D means - but PTP isn´t a 3D-application.

I guess it´a question of exact terminology - like "HDR" for example. Many things named "HDR" aren´t HDR at all but DRI, exposure-fusioning or something.

There isn´t any "z" in PTP-code, right?

Generating 3D means to use "z". What we do in PTP is zooming in 2D.

When i do an animation in Maya or 4CD i use 3D CONSTRUCTIONS to animate them - PTP doesn´t generate 3D constructions and it doesn´t deal with 3D constructions.

But of course we can link renderred 3D objects into PTP - on an extra window.

Ok - it´s late and i have a portrait-shooting in the morning . . . so i´ll go to bed now.

Klaus

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:47 am

There is a Z value Klaus.. Its static but its there and placed exactly at centre point.. The size of your images governs the distance from the face to the centre point, which is the static Z value. The Z value never moves... The X, moves left to right and the Y from Zenith to Nadir, both of which are pivoted from the absolute Z value.. There is no - or + on the Z but its there by virtual of the fact that its a virtual 3D environment. You cannot edit the Z value so it does not appear in your code since it has to remain where it is or the rotation of the sphere will become unstable. The zoom value is by virtue derived from the size of your sphere and the image quality to stop at a specified zoom distance which is linked to the size of your image quality.

You enter a 3D environment to capture your images. You use your 2D images, a human term for X Y media, and stitch them to create a 3D cube, with images that have the illusion that they are convex to create the full illusion of being inside a 3D space which is in fact the inside of a cube made to appear as if you are inside a sphere, which is worked out by the software and the images if captured using a fisheye lens, to create the illusion of being inside a 3D space. So, when others say its a 3D Virtual Tour, they are right.. and if others call it a 360 Virtual Tour, they too are right.

Destiny...

Have a nice Day!

Klaus

[AlexandreJ]

by AlexandreJ » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:48 am

Semantics of 360° or 3D. Complicated in any case.

- The less people know, the more 3D is the adequate term, because you can turn and that's what they expect.
- I personally don't like 3D term, because with my past of game developer, it would mean I can move around in the tour ( and the tour is polygon based ).

3D is perfectly acceptable for me as it allow to teach what a tour is. And in fact, it is because when you put a rectangular spot over a tv screen to add your own video, this rectangular spot is a real quad that turns in 3D around your fixed point view.

I think the real key is 'fixed point of view' or not fixed point of view ( 3D over true 3D )

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:22 am

It might not be actually 3D as we know it to be, but its still a 3D illusion of a 3D environment . .

That´s what i said: it´s not 3D

Klaus

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:53 am

Semantics of 360° or 3D. Complicated in any case.
. . .
I think the real key is 'fixed point of view' or not fixed point of view ( 3D over true 3D )

Correct. The point is: offering it as 3D can rise problems. That´s what happened to a befriended photographer - the client expected 3D and what he got was "3D" . .
Being a Maya 3D-artist working on a 3D-animation he had precise expectations - basing on the term 3D.

It´s a question of rather fuzzy or precise semantics - i agree. When you deal with 3D-professionals they expect 3D when you call something 3D . . .

There are some applications which generate 3D from a stack of 2D images - that´s really interesting because it means for example you can add lights and shadows and so on . . . all the things you can do in a 3D application using 3D constructions but you can´t do in panoramas we are dealing with because there are no real 3D constructions to work with.

I think it´s very important for someone working commercially - at least in advertising - to know exactly (!) what he (or she ) is talking about when negotiating with potentional clients . . That´s why i brought up the theme.

best, Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:11 pm

Now you ask a interresting question.....were is the Z-axis in a Sphere......

It´s quite obvious there is no physical z-axis to use in a 3D way in the spheres we generate with APG and visualize with PTP.

Klaus

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:21 pm

But that also has nothing to do with the fact that a VR Sphere is a sphere and a sphere is a 3D object.

That´s not the point. The point is: we are projecting 2D images on a sphere resp. cube. That doesn´t make them 3D at all.

But to be honest: at the moment i don´t have the time for reading too long stories . .

I suggest to talk to some professional 3D-animation artists about the theme - i did many times.

I´ve told my point - i don´t need nor want to convince anybody of anything.

Klaus

[gkaefer]

by gkaefer » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:27 pm

one more useless thread?

I just read the very first three lines written in his first posting:

Hi!

Sometimes clients talk of "3D-animation" when it comes to interactive 360x180° panoramas.

That´s kind of a problem - because it´s no "3D animation" at all.

no single response is hitting the topic: "3D-animation" != interactive 360x180° panoramas

so you can argue that Klaus did write in his first post 7x "3D-animation" but 4x "3D" and he additional did forget to write in headline the "-animation" too... but hey...
instead of asking for more details for clarification..

its obvious some personal reserving are in the game here (still/again), so every single line of comment must be dissected here and each row must be refuted on bend and break?
is this game really enjoyable?

Last edited by gkaefer on Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:26 pm

BTW, I have no bias towards Klaus, all be it that I'm sometimes are not to fond of his repeating argument debating technique.....he could brush up on that a bit.....

Well - when i see that you don´t get the point still: what else can i do but either repeat my arguments or stop discussing this theme with you at all?
I decided to stop discussing that point with a 3D non-pro.

Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:46 pm

....but I do differ if Klaus thinks withholding the term 3D for VR Spheres will be the solution since that is not the big difference......

I was trying to figure out a term that names it unmistakingly.
That´s all.

the difference is the way both 3D worlds are generated....

And among producers of interactive panos and producers of 3D content this difference definitely is important.
Producers of 3D content have precise namens for what they do.
Producers of interactive panos obviously don´t . . .

Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:47 pm

That´s not the point. The point is: we are projecting 2D images on a sphere resp. cube. That doesn´t make them 3D at all.

This is unfortunately mathematically and topologically not true.....if I project on a sphere the 2D object is curved in the third dimension,

Klaus

[gkaefer]

by gkaefer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:55 am

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animation
+
your definition of 3D
!= interactive 360x180 panoramas



EDIT: this is my short interpretation of #1, a more detailed one is in #18

Last edited by gkaefer on Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[gkaefer]

by gkaefer » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:49 pm

Ed, however you or anyone else defines 3D - this is not the point at all, no doubts here or questions on anyones skills. An animation contains motion. Motion can be achieved by using handdrawn images or finally with modern CGI or whatever software or by filing with howver medium. In panoramas (at least for the next week before ptp2.x with livevideo is out ) you use one single source image for your tour that can be based on different projections. So your panorama contains no animation so it cant represent a 3d-animation. You can make your panorama intereactive by placing 3D objects (hotspots, rectagles, stills or animated ones containing sound, video, text, images whatever - yea even Destinys wonderful examples can be achieved using 3D objects), but your tour does not get a "3D animation" because of that. Of course you've a sphere and this is defined in 3 dimensions. again this is not the topic. Klaus believes that it can cause troubles if "3D animation" is used in conjunction with virtual (interactive) panorama tours towards a customer, in special if this customer does come from this "Maya" industry.

if I'm off topic here - sorry. This is just my understanding/interpretation of reading #1.
Georg

EDIT: this posting is a response to a posting which was deleted meanwhile

Last edited by gkaefer on Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:59 pm

roll

Klaus

Klaus, if you don't understand these mathematics, that it's entrirely and utterly your problem, as a photographer I do not expect you too, as I said mathematics are hard to get rid of Klaus, but of course they can be ignored.

For the non ignorers who want to KNOW what PTP and KRPANO are all about....well some excellent read, and free as well allthough I will try to order a copy of the book in which I can make dogears......have to buy the Stephane Hessel book tomorrow anyway....so lets see:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/88133421/19/Spherical-Panoramic-Projection

and as a last final try.....a projection on a sphere uses the two coà¶rdinates per point....a yaw and a pitch, but that is only possible since you project on a sphere with a fixed radius......otherwise you'de be projecting in mid air........now yaw, pitch and RADIUS define a polar coà¶rdinate triplet...that is Euler space Klaus (listen to the talk Alexandre Jenny gave at Microsoft he even mentions Euler space somewhere half way down the talk).....also dead science.....now this can be described as a carthesian coordinate system as well.....via a euler-carthesian transformation (simple highschool math of the boring sin/cos variety).....which will describe the point in a 3D (oops) grid of an X, Y and Z axis.....

Greets, Ed.

Don´t say i didn´t try . . . :D:lol::cool: http://www.kolor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=15784&p=2 #32

ok - good bye, Ed.

Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Thu Sep 13, 2012 4:14 pm

Ed, however you or anyone else defines 3D - this is not the point at all, no doubts here or questions on anyones skills. An animation contains motion. Motion can be achieved by using handdrawn images or finally with modern CGI or whatever software or by filing with howver medium. In panoramas (at least for the next week before ptp2.x with livevideo is out ) you use one single source image for your tour that can be based on different projections. So your panorama contains no animation so it cant represent a 3d-animation. You can make your panorama intereactive by placing 3D objects (hotspots, rectagles, stills or animated ones containing sound, video, text, images whatever - yea even Destinys wonderful examples can be achieved using 3D objects), but your tour does not get a "3D animation" because of that. Of course you've a sphere and this is defined in 3 dimensions. again this is not the topic. Klaus believes that it can cause troubles if "3D animation" is used in conjunction with virtual (interactive) panorama tours towards a customer, in special if this customer does come from this "Maya" industry.

if I'm off topic here - sorry. This is just my understanding/interpretation of reading #1.
Georg

Hi Georg!

You got the point - as usually.

(And you even didn´t need to write a story beginning at the birth of the universe, to communicate it . . . )

best, Klaus

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:43 pm

I wouldn't have a clue Klaus...I wouldn't have a clue......

Greets, Ed.

Physically/logically at least the mouth should be shadowed . . .

Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:13 pm

but that is screenshot of the editor.....

But there are shadows on other parts of the very same image . .

Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Artisan S.]

by Artisan S. » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:13 pm

But there are shadows on other parts of the very same image . . hmm

Klaus do you actually read....or are you just out to get everyone that does not agree with you? Well if you are....what does that make you Klaus....think, think hard.....I finally give up talking to you oh great Klaus, since your vannity has turned you blind, deaf and (unfortunaly not numb). Now I personally am getting sick of your behaviour....your constant discrediting....I hope it amusses you....but I'm sick and tired and will no longer ammuse you.....adieu Klaus....as the French so nicelly put it.

[Artisan S.]

by Artisan S. » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:28 pm

BTW, Klaus I have asked Alexandre to ban me (on my IP adres) from this forum, for life....I hope he agrees and does me the favour.......

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:08 am

BTW, Klaus I have asked Alexandre to ban me (on my IP adres) from this forum, for life....I hope he agrees and does me the favour.......

And for that reason you deleted the image - the 3D construction - we were talking about?




Klaus

Last edited by klausesser on Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:23 am

But there are shadows on other parts of the very same image . . hmm

Klaus do you actually read....or are you just out to get everyone that does not agree with you? Well if you are....what does that make you Klaus....think, think hard.....I finally give up talking to you oh great Klaus, since your vannity has turned you blind, deaf and (unfortunaly not numb). Now I personally am getting sick of your behaviour....your constant discrediting....I hope it amusses you....but I'm sick and tired and will no longer ammuse you.....adieu Klaus....as the French so nicelly put it.

I did nothing than state that there should be a shadow in the mouth of your figure. That´s all. Everybody who has eyes to see can recognize this fact.

What´s your problem with that objective statement? You constantly make remarks on every and even the smallest error i make. Now i make a remark on a missing shadow in your construction - and you´re going to leave the forum for that??

Good Lord, Ed . . .

Klaus

[HansKeesom]

by HansKeesom » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:06 pm

:lol::lol:

Its nice to see that you have conceded to being wrong...

It might not be actually 3D as we know it to be, but its still a 3D illusion of a 3D environment which is the same thing since its virtual reality. When I teach my students how to find the mass or volume of a 3D object, their answer is cubed to the power of 3 which is 3D... The pano sphere has a length, height and depth of a 3D virtual environment which means its 3D.... And since you can pan it in all directions its Interactive and since you can put it to auto, its also an animated 3D scene..

A 3D Virtual Reality scene does not physically exist but its still a 3D illusion. A 3D object does not physically exist either within a computer, again its an illusion created by maths xyz light, shading and colour to create the interpretation of 3D form, unless you use the stl maths code to print it to physical form.

Hope you had a nice sleep...

Destiny..

Being from downunder you might not have gotten the European meaning of a smile and a goodday-greeting, correctly.....

[HansKeesom]

by HansKeesom » Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:54 pm

Does anyone know the yoke about the Australian women, German man and dutch guy? Well.....it is not funny........


Below is an explanation. If you have questions about it, let me know. However, I am not even gonna bother discussing it. This is what it is from an academic viewpoint. Q.E.D.


Many have discussed terms like virtual reality tours and 3d here and on other forums. With some seniority I think I can state a few things about it, as I was on Leiden University studying applied computer science when an Apple was still fruit and a Macintosh something Britisch. My late Professor Jan van der Bos was already doing research on images and computers, both on how to generate images and how to process them to get information from them. I created routines to allow for animations on the Commodore Amiga and Sun Workstations. We are back in the 80's here. Who of you was already born then, just curious.

The term virtual reality already existed in those days and was about creating images on the screen that gave you the idea of a reality. This reality hoewever did not really exist, it was just a collection of data records in the computer describing how objects looked and behaved. If the reality would have existed we just would have called it displaying a photo.

To use the term virtual reality to describe what we do here with Autopano and panotour is at least misleading and confusing, and to my opinion just wrong. The term virtual when applied to the word Tour is not wrong, because a virtual tour tells you that the tour you are taking is not real, but just virtual. The reality you see is however real, not virtual. Making a photo of it does not change that.

Calling what we do here Virtual Reality photography is a double mistake. Virtual Reality Photography simple means that you make photos of a virtual reality, so f.e. have a (flightsimulater) game running on your computer and make photos of that. So nothing to do with what we do here.

Now about 3D. There is no 3D information in a photo that is shot with one lens. We can not see or measure any depth or distance. One can distract 3D information from a set of photos when the camera was moved sideways and maybe even up and down.
When doing panorama photography we strive to have a perfect nodal point around we rotate our camera. This causes no depth information to be in the resulting set of photos. There is no telling how far a chair is from us, a table of the wall.
Another way to see this is to switch to so called polarcoordinates. Every point in a panorama can be address by two coordinates, the first describing the number of degrees rotation to the right and the second descrbing the number of degrees rotating upwards. In a real 3D environment 2 coordinates would not be enough, you would have a third telling you the distance to the object you want to point at. As we do not need this third coordinate in a panorama, it is NOT 3D.
Q.E.D. again.

Last edited by HansKeesom on Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[klausesser]

by klausesser » Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:05 pm

We are back in the 80's here. Who of you was already born then, just curious.

In the ´80´s i was divorced for the second time . . . . :cool:

In a real 3D environment 2 coordinates would not be enough, you would have a third telling you the distance to the object you want to point at. As we do not need this third coordinate in a panorama, it is NOT 3D.
Q.E.D. again.

:cool:

best to you, Klaus