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| User list | Rules | You are not logged in.
Hi, I am going a bit mad with this, I am a professional photographer trying to get to grips with panoramics, I bought autopano pro because of the info on the website about raw processing and hdri ability and user reviews.
I am trying to create spheres for high res 3d imagery.
1)Hdr in autopano does not seem to work or is pretty random and I end up with washed out pictures.
2)Adjustments to raw files is very simple. Is it best to develop raw in another program before stitching?
3)When i move images in the editor to the correct position or add control points(as autopano has not found links) I then press optimise panarama button Autopano then spends ages roptimising and takes me back to square one.
4)in the editor (control points editor) in the layers section is it possible to put a selection of images in a layer and just work on optimising the control points for those images in the layer rather than the whole panorama?
5)In the wiki it mentions localised geometric analysis (so you are not working on the whole pano 180x360) how do you do this?
6) the preview image sometimes bears little resemblance to the rendered image ( which wastes an awful lot of time when you think you have things right judging by the preview.
I would really appreciate any advice on this as I have been working through the night to try and get the resolved.
Kind regards
Ian
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1. Can you post some images of the HDR results so we can have a look at it & guide you.
2. If you want the best then YES developing raw & then stitching is far better.
3. once you are back to square one you need to use vertical line tool to get into the final pano you need.
4. I guess no you have to optimize it fully.
Posting your images in a zip file with exif intact & telling us your setup will help us to take a look at what & where you are going wrong.
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apeproductions wrote:
Hi, I am going a bit mad with this, I am a professional photographer trying to get to grips with panoramics, I bought autopano pro because of the info on the website about raw processing and hdri ability and user reviews.
I am trying to create spheres for high res 3d imagery.
1)Hdr in autopano does not seem to work or is pretty random and I end up with washed out pictures.
2)Adjustments to raw files is very simple. Is it best to develop raw in another program before stitching?
3)When i move images in the editor to the correct position or add control points(as autopano has not found links) I then press optimise panarama button Autopano then spends ages roptimising and takes me back to square one.
4)in the editor (control points editor) in the layers section is it possible to put a selection of images in a layer and just work on optimising the control points for those images in the layer rather than the whole panorama?
5)In the wiki it mentions localised geometric analysis (so you are not working on the whole pano 180x360) how do you do this?
6) the preview image sometimes bears little resemblance to the rendered image ( which wastes an awful lot of time when you think you have things right judging by the preview.
I would really appreciate any advice on this as I have been working through the night to try and get the resolved.
Kind regards
Ian
Hi Ian!
I understand your problems very well. Had to struggle wit the same in the beginning and learned that it in fact takes months to get "grip" on APP because of missing in-deep documentation.
My suggestion is:
1) HDR works well for using in 3D programs for GL. BUT you have to do it THIS way - because Smartblend can´t render HDR actually:
1) use a RAW-Converter to "develop" your RAW files. Tha quality of conversion in APP isn´t good (wich is understandable, because it´s a stitcher and not a converter and because there are coming new RAW formats every two month . . )
2) Put the developed but still bracketed files into APP. ALL bracketed files.
3) Stitch.
4) in the editor group layers as "bracketed layers".
5) do your editing (but NO "AutoColor", NO "Tonemapping")
besides - geometrical corrections are very rare IF you had your setup perfectly done! APP is VERY good then.
6) in the render-dialogue set a %L behind the cryptic text which describes the size of the document.
7) in the bottom window you now read 3 lines of your filenaame - each followed by the name of your bracket-layer as 0, 2 or -2
APP now renders three congruent single panos of your layered shots as TIFF files (or others - but no hdr)
This three panos you put into Photomatix or CS3 and save them as HDR (of course without having them tonemapped . . 
)
Photomatix or CS3 will combine the three bracketed layers just it does with 3 (or more) bracketed single files.
Save them as .hdr or .exr - depends on the 3D prog. you´ll use.
best and good luck, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser (2008-07-19 13:57:03)
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I am trying to create spheres for high res 3d imagery.
How hi res? Whats your setup? By the way, when you say hdr do you mean hdr, or tonemapped ldr?
1)Hdr in autopano does not seem to work or is pretty random and I end up with washed out pictures.
HDR generally will be greatly improved in APP 2.0. If you want a real HDR (96/32bit) file then for now i would suggest you use a program like photomatix to create your bracketed image SETS, so if you shot 99 photos you will have 33 sets, and therefore 33 .hdr files. Add those files to a new pano in APP and stitch them, and save as .hdr (or .exr). Don't use RH2 or RH4 tonemapping in APP. I'm not sure whether ldr ror hdr color correction can be used when you feed APP REAL HDR FILES.
2)Adjustments to raw files is very simple. Is it best to develop raw in another program before stitching?
Yes it is best. This is true for every program that isn't a dedicated raw converter. APP is quite good at this, it does automatic vignetting correction etc etc, but its best if you convert the raws using human judgmenet of what looks correct and devignetted. I dont know what demosaicing algorithm APP uses, but chances are high that in a dedicated raw converter you can chose one that works best with your specific camera.
3)When i move images in the editor to the correct position or add control points(as autopano has not found links) I then press optimise panarama button Autopano then spends ages roptimising and takes me back to square one.
Moving isnt enough. Move images to where they appear correct, then open the CP Editor, keeping it open send it to the background so you can see your pano again, right click on the image you moved, select "local geometric analysis", wait, then select "local optimise". Local Geometric Analysis finds CPs between the selected image and the images it covers, no other images. If after local optimise this image look really badly places, undo the last "optimise" step, then in the CP Editor check each link that was created when you used "LGE" and manually remove anything that looks bad, and only then back in the pano editor do you rightclick on it and press Local Optimise.
4)in the editor (control points editor) in the layers section is it possible to put a selection of images in a layer and just work on optimising the control points for those images in the layer rather than the whole panorama?
No, not in the CP editor. As klausesser wrote you can create layers in the pano editor window. Click on View > Layers if the layers panel is hidden. You can create layers manually using the add layer button and dragging and dropping, or if your images have exif you can create 1 layer for every exposure by using one of the other tools, e.g. "Group by bracket". Well this was how to create layers, but you said yuo want to work only on the active layer. Hmm. I dont know what you mean by work. If you just want to see that layer, then sure you can hide the others. If you want to run a tool like "Customized Fine Tuner" (in the CP Editor) on just one layer then you must hide all other layers (and/or image), then open the CP Editor and the list should have just the visible ones.
5)In the wiki it mentions localised geometric analysis (so you are not working on the whole pano 180x360) how do you do this?
See step 3.
6) the preview image sometimes bears little resemblance to the rendered image ( which wastes an awful lot of time when you think you have things right judging by the preview.
Screenshots screenshots show us screenshots :]
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klausesser wrote:
I understand your problems very well. Had to struggle wit the same in the beginning and learned that it in fact takes months to get "grip" on APP because of missing in-deep documentation.
My suggestion is:
1) HDR works well for using in 3D programs for GL. BUT you have to do it THIS way - because Smartblend can´t render HDR actually:
1) use a RAW-Converter to "develop" your RAW files. Tha quality of conversion in APP isn´t good (wich is understandable, because it´s a stitcher and not a converter and because there are coming new RAW formats every two month . . )
2) Put the developed but still bracketed files into APP. ALL bracketed files.
3) Stitch.
4) in the editor group layers as "bracketed layers".
5) do your editing (but NO "AutoColor", NO "Tonemapping")
besides - geometrical corrections are very rare IF you had your setup perfectly done! APP is VERY good then.
6) in the render-dialogue set a %L behind the cryptic text which describes the size of the document.
7) in the bottom window you now read 3 lines of your filenaame - each followed by the name of your bracket-layer as 0, 2 or -2
APP now renders three congruent single panos of your layered shots as TIFF files (or others - but no hdr)
This three panos you put into Photomatix or CS3 and save them as HDR (of course without having them tonemapped . .
Photomatix or CS3 will combine the three bracketed layers just it does with 3 (or more) bracketed single files.
Save them as .hdr or .exr - depends on the 3D prog. you´ll use.
best and good luck, Klaus
BTW, don't use smartblend for this-it may distort the images in one bracket differently than in another bracket. use multiband.
Hi Klaus,
Have you changed your workflow? I thought you had been doing:
1. RAW and photomatix (forgot if you used PM as the RAW converter)
2. APP
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hankkarl wrote:
BTW, don't use smartblend for this-it may distort the images in one bracket differently than in another bracket. use multiband.
Hi Klaus,
Have you changed your workflow? I thought you had been doing:
1. RAW and photomatix (forgot if you used PM as the RAW converter)
2. APP
Hello Hank!
I didn´t change my workflow 
- i worked out a second one specialised on HDR-spheres for global lighting
of 3D scenes just like car"photography" or like that.
Where a HDR - a "true" HDR - is used not only as a reflection-map but as lighting for objects and casting shadows and so on in a photonaturalistic scene where no photography can come close to.
Look at 90% of all car-advertiseing. Also used in most kinds of 3D scenes - as food, furniture, architecture and so on.
The point is that smartblend can´t render hdr. Multiband can - but it´s just not smartblend . . 
The way i dscribed allows you to use smartblend even with "real" HDR. People who produce backplates and panos for car-photography/renderings know what i mean . .
best, Klaus
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Hi Klaus,
I'd love to see an example of your work.
Do you get identical panos from the three layers when using smartblend? I tried it a long time ago and (IIRC) found that the layers were slightly different from each other.
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Thanks everyone for your replies, I have been away over the weekend to shoot more bubbles, so I will put your processes into practice.
I must say I am overwhelmed by the genorisity of people in sharing their thoughts and time.
Thanks once again
Ian
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hankkarl wrote:
Hi Klaus,
I'd love to see an example of your work.
Do you get identical panos from the three layers when using smartblend? I tried it a long time ago and (IIRC) found that the layers were slightly different from each other.
Hello Hank!
Yes - i get three absolute identical panos using smartblend.
here two examples of "global lighting" using a hdr-sphere to light scenes - the only light comes from the "sky", which in a 3D program is an infinite-spherical object which surround all the scene. And is declared as illumination - suited with the .hdr file which is a 32bit/channel floating-point.
A "floor"-object is under the rings and also reflects the skylight.
Not only the sky mirrors in the objects - it literally delivers all light in the scene. The spherical pano was shot on a beach and all the wonderful smooth light of the photographed scene during sunset is in the 3D scene.
best, Klaus
P.S.: have a look here: http://www.detail3d.de/3DModelle--c-2_44-1.html
Last edited by klausesser (2008-07-21 15:12:44)
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Wow! I have only heard of the tools you are selling backgrounds for!
BTW, have you considered translating your website to Engish? You may open up a new market--after all, I'm in the USA, your in Germany, we use a a stitcher and an HDR program from a French company, and I bought another HDR program from a guy in Poland--its not that the world is getting smaller, but the shops are easier to get to.
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Very true! When my website was only in Polish I still had most visitors from the USA! I made an english version too and now my statistics, hits for this month:
USA 22538
eu European country 4591
These grow each month, but the ratio when the site was polish-only was the same.
ps. hankkarl who were you talking to? I thought klausesser but his website is in english :]
ps2. I think I know which HDR program you mean, forgot the name but I can see the website in my mind. How good is it, compared to PM?
Last edited by DrSlony (2008-07-21 16:20:28)
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hankkarl wrote:
Wow! I have only heard of the tools you are selling backgrounds for!
BTW, have you considered translating your website to Engish? You may open up a new market--after all, I'm in the USA, your in Germany, we use a a stitcher and an HDR program from a French company, and I bought another HDR program from a guy in Poland--its not that the world is getting smaller, but the shops are easier to get to.
Hi Hank!
No, no - i´m not selling anything but myself as a photographer . .
The site is one from a commercial distributor of 3d models and backdrops.
In fact there´s lots of specialized photographers who travel the world to shoot hdr-spheres and backplates for car-photography.
one of them is here:
www.hi-dynamic.com
and a photographer who uses those spheres and backplates:
http://www.studio-korte.com/michael_korte.html
But i must confess to be very attracted by an international consortium from Poland, the US, France, GreatBritain, Austria, Germany and some others too . . .
best, Klaus
P.S.:
besides: i did the both pictures in Cinema4D - generated the rings and the floor by creating a plane and texturize it with the stars-texture and gave it grainy-reflecting surface.
As sky-object-ilumination i used a hdr-sphere converterted to a hdr-probe in Cinema´s renderer and set it as illumination in the texture settings.
Last edited by klausesser (2008-07-21 21:38:25)
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apeproductions wrote:
low res jpegs processed from raw images, to show the problems with sift and stitching. Not trying to produce hdr here just a decent stitch and colour adjust.
If anyone wants to have a go let me know.
alot of sky images just end up in the middle of the pano.
Kind regards
Ian
I'll risk having a go if you can put the images on-line somewhere so I can download them. I hope the JPEGS still have EXIF data.
Can you provide some guide to how you shot these images? Lens focal length, no. of rows, no. of shots per row, angles of pitch of each row and order shot etc?
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First of all, thanks to everyone for posting about their experiences with stitching problems. We ran into many problems as well, and thanks to many ideas on the forums plus a lot of work of our own, we've been able to come up with a reasonable workflow to solve stitching problems.
We produced a screencast on dealing with stitching problems and approximating manual control points in AutoPano so our customers that use AutoPano could figure it out more easily. I thought it would be nice to share with all of you here as well in hopes that it will help you as well.
Enjoy!
Alan
Last edited by apinstein (2008-09-06 06:22:40)
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The tutorial is well done - but I'm tempted to say that had a more appropriate camera/lens combination been used for this room scene then there is unlikely to have been a problem with auto CP detection and stitching in the first place.
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mediavets wrote:
The tutorial is well done
thanks!
mediavets wrote:
but I'm tempted to say that had a more appropriate camera/lens combination been used for this room scene then there is unlikely to have been a problem with auto CP detection and stitching in the first place.
Oh, trust me, I agree! I didn't shoot these... but here's the problem. We do virtual tour hosting for professional tour photographers, and many of our customers are switching to us from another provider, and one of these providers in particular which is very popular also sells people equipment. So about 1/3 of our customers already have a complete hardware setup exactly like this. They already know their workflow on the shooting side, and also of course are not very interested in buying new equipment or figuring out a different way to shoot.
In fact, the next tutorial we have planned will be about the proper hardware setup to make life easier for photographers. I am assuming that the best workflow for shooting is something like 3-4 pictures with a fisheye lens, but we are having one of our employees test a bunch of setups to see a few good ways to do this.
If you know of any best-practices of shooting so that Autopano can stitch things near-automatic every time, I'd be all ears!
Thanks,
Alan
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So what kind of hardware setup do these people typically have now - as sold to them by their former VT provider?
I am assuming - perhaps incorrectly - that this 1/3 of your customers would not be keen to throw away the equipment they have now and start again?
..................
If starting from scratch and wishing to photograph real estate to produce interior panos capable of fullscreen display and wide angle stills, both of adequate quality, then a 'basic' setup might be:
Decent tripod
Nodal Ninja 3 or 5 pano head
Canon 450D/Xti (low end Canon DSLRs offer AEB and support for wired remote which low end Nikon DSLRs lack and are probably less noisy in low light with long exposures)
Sigma 10-20mm rectilinear wide angle lens (for WA stills)
Sigma 8mm f3.5 fisheye lens (for panos)
Decent ext.flash
................
I shoot with a Nikon DX (1.5x cropped sensor) DSLR with Sigma 8mm f3.5 and NN5 head.
4-around at about +5 and one (or two at about 120 separation) up at about +60 works well for me with APP. The 'zenith' shot at about +60 rather than +90 means one is always likely to get a good link between the 'zenith' shot and the main row. This leaves a 'hole' at the nadir which is about the size of the NN5 rotator. The angles would be a little different with a 1.6x cropped sensor Canon but the concept would be the same.
Last edited by mediavets (2008-09-06 15:26:56)
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The customers from this former VT provider have a 12-stop panohead and use a variety of cameras (usually not DSLRs) and usually with the stock lens.
Certainly some are willing to go to new equipment, especially if we can leverage what they have. So for instance, a 3 or 4 shot workflow should be compatible with a 12-stop panohead. And maybe a wide-angle or fisheye adapter (not sure if that would cause uncorrectable vignetting or not).
Of course for the other 2/3 of our customers (and many of those are just STARTING the VT business) we have the opportunity to specify a setup, and they even want us to do this, since it can save so much time vs having to figure it out on their own.
I haven't done too much myself with pano shooting yet but I do know a moderate amount about photography. Let me ask you a few things about your recommendations:
- I assume the 10-20mm rectilinear for the stills, and the fisheye for the panos?
- And the rectilinear lens means that you don't have to do any "lens correction" in post-production for the stills?
- How many shots do you do with that lens? 4 around? 4 + 2 (up/down)?
- And does autopano pretty much perfectly stitch together those images without much intervention?
Thanks! You have been really helpful.
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I've added a bit more to my earlier post that covers some of your questions - I think.
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apinstein wrote:
Ah cool, I see. So you do 4 around + 1 up and stitch a logo on the bottom or something like that.
Yes, latest version of Pano2VR that I use to generate QT or Flash formats for on-line display of panos also has a new nadir patch feature, or one can limit the FOV at the nadir in the player - cos I'm lazy and not at all sure that the extra work needed to patch the nadir well adds that much to 360x180 panos, or not enough to justify the work if one is not being paid much.
If your customers have more skills the can take a handheld nadir ( often very difficult with interiors because of shutter speeds and longer expsoures needed) and patch the nadir in PS.
Last edited by mediavets (2008-09-06 17:11:32)
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apinstein wrote:
The customers from this former VT provider have a 12-stop panohead and use a variety of cameras (usually not DSLRs) and usually with the stock lens.
Certainly some are willing to go to new equipment, especially if we can leverage what they have. So for instance, a 3 or 4 shot workflow should be compatible with a 12-stop panohead. And maybe a wide-angle or fisheye adapter (not sure if that would cause uncorrectable vignetting or not).
Is this 12-stop head single row only? If so that's a major limitation. Do you have picture of this panohead?
Even the best point-n-shoot compacts won't match the image quality of the lowest end DSLR. And none will perform as well in the demanding task of shooting interior panos - with low light levels and often mixed lighting types and the huge dynamic range with brightly illuminated window areas and dimly lit corners.
You can attach convertors to some point-n-shoots - I use the Nikon WC-E63 (WA), WC-E68 (WA) and FC-E8 (FE) on my Nikon P5100 (none of which 'obsolete' convertors are officially supported on the P5100) - mostly used out of doors in good light. But there are not many (any?) good quality compatible WA and FE convertors available for most other brands (and models) of current point-n-shoot compacts.
IMO if one wishes to shoot interior 360x180 panos of sufficient resolution and image quality for fullscreen display on-line then a DSLR based system with a fisheye lens is the way to go these days.
Last edited by mediavets (2008-09-06 17:58:06)
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Alan,
Just adding my thanks for sharing the screencast. It was easy to follow and I learned a little bit more about Autpano!
Mike.
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WRT choice of tripod for real estate panographers.
If I was shooting for real estate day in and day out I would want a tripod that was quick and easy easy to level.
Some like using a a good ball head under the pano head, some say that with practise it's quick and easy to adjust the legs of a tripod, but the alternative I would choose would be a Manfrotto tripod with an MDeVe levelling centre column:
http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/oxfordtour/tut … od%20Setup
Last edited by mediavets (2008-09-07 11:46:16)
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