Gigapans and large files  

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Gigapans and large files

by Aeriscera » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:31 am

Hi Everyone,

I use APP to produce gigapan images. I noticed that the biggest gigapans are bigger than should be possible, so I am wondering what I am missing.

1. The gigapan uploader only uploads TIFs with LZW compression.
2. TIFs are limited to n gigabytes (n = 4 in theory, n = 2 in practice)
3. The biggest gigapan is 10GPix.
4. This image, uncompressed, requires 10*3 = 30GB (assuming 24-bit colour).
5. It follows that LZW compresses 30GB down to 4GB i.e. 14% of the original (or 2GB, 7%)
6. To the best of my knowledge, LZW generally produces compression of photos in the order of 60%. Sometimes it is as poor as 95%, and 40% is the best I have seen.

It follows that someone is mistaken. Is it me?

Aeris
Last edited by Aeriscera on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:42 am

Aeriscera wrote:1. The gigapan uploader only uploads TIFs with LZW compression.

Hello Aeris!

Which "gigapan uploader" are you talking about?

best, Klaus
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by [bo] » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:38 pm

Aeriscera wrote:3. The biggest gigapan is 10GPix.

Heh, Alex broke 13GP an year ago! And here's a 16GP pano, from last year too.
Some of my panoramas, posted in the Autopano Pro flickr group.

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by Aeriscera » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:42 pm

Hmm, I think there is some confusion here. By "gigapan" I specifically mean an image at www.gigapan.org, so
klausesser wrote:Which "gigapan uploader" are you talking about?

Afaik, there is only one, for Windows. I have version 0.3.1239.

'[bo wrote:']
Aeriscera wrote:3. The biggest gigapan is 10GPix.

Heh, Alex broke 13GP an year ago! And here's a 16GP pano, from last year too.

These aren't "gigapans" :-)

Aeris

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by klausesser » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:20 pm

Aeriscera wrote:Hmm, I think there is some confusion here. By "gigapan" I specifically mean an image at www.gigapan.org, so

Afaik, there is only one, for Windows. I have version 0.3.1239.

Aeris

I see - i´m a Mac-user.

"These aren't "gigapans" :-)"

Oh yes - they are . . :cool: They´re "real" gigapans. The term "gigapan" is more and more used for pictures of just gigaPIXELS - but that´s just numbers.
They don´t regard the real optical resolution basing on extremly good lenses and chips - and workflow.

When i look at th gigapan.org pictures i see 75% garbage - tons of CAs due to inferior lenses, very bad stitches, and so on.

Shooting a gigapan needs highest accuracy - exellent lenses, perfect aligned heads, highres chips with clean signals and perfect stitches with smooth and even light.
And not to forget the most importand feature: a real good reason to shoot just that picture as a highres gigapan.

Size alone doesn´t impress me at all. A good and really highrez 500mpx picture is far better than a bad 10gpx one.

Btw.: why not bring in your robotic-skills into a serious motorized pano-head?

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by Aeriscera » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:18 pm

klausesser wrote:Size alone doesn´t impress me at all. A good and really highrez 500mpx picture is far better than a bad 10gpx one.

I understand and agree from the perspective of someone wanting to produce good images. But that isn't my interest. I want to produce images that you can fly into as much as possible, or are unusually large prints. So a "good" image for me is one that is full of detail - I don't much care what the whole photo looks like. Of course if it happens to look good in the traditional sense then that's a bonus. Ideally I'd like to make a print that is in the order of 6 or 8 meters long that is printed so finely that you need a magnifying glass to see the detail. I'm well on the way to doing this - the problem is that I can't afford to print my test results at full size, so I am pursuing my other goal of making images you can fly into. The only system I have any experience of is gigapan.org, hence my focus on gigapan.org's "gigapans". I'm aware there are other systems but I haven't explored them yet. My head is already exploding with the effort of having to learn 23 new disciplines without adding more :-)

klausesser wrote:Btw.: why not bring in your robotic-skills into a serious motorized pano-head?

Money.

A
Last edited by Aeriscera on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by DrSlony » Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:23 am

I would suggest we try not to get off-topic here, since the topic isn't panorama quality or the difference between the 'trademark' name 'gigapan' and a real 'gigapano'. Although I do agree with klausesser that most of the panos on that site are not gigapanos and most of them suck.

1. The gigapan uploader only uploads TIFs with LZW compression.
Are you 100% sure? If so, that sucks. Why waste time, space and bandwidth when they will be just used for online viewing anyway? (this question isn't to you Aeriscera, I'm just polemicising). They could have used jpg, or at least TIFF with deflate compression.

2. TIFs are limited to n gigabytes (n = 4 in theory, n = 2 in practice)
ok

3. The biggest gigapan is 10GPix.
Yes, notice that is has a lot of uniform black and blue.

4. This image, uncompressed, requires 10*3 = 30GB (assuming 24-bit colour).
Yes

5. It follows that LZW compresses 30GB down to 4GB i.e. 14% of the original (or 2GB, 7%)
Yes, to a MAXIMUM of 4 or 2GB.

6. To the best of my knowledge, LZW generally produces compression of photos in the order of 60%. Sometimes it is as poor as 95%, and 40% is the best I have seen.
Generally, yes. Deflate is better.

The key here is that specific image - It has so much uniform blue and black!
A simple image (not a photo) will have much better compression because of all the similar colors, so despite being 10GP the uniform areas can take up very little space, next to nothing.

The image below is 1 gigapixel. 50 000 x 20 000px (resized to 3 000px wide for the forum).
The 1GP compressed TIFF size (LZW) is just 3.8MB. I think its the same situation with that mandelbrot.


Last edited by DrSlony on Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Aeriscera » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:35 am

DrSlony wrote:Yes, notice that is has a lot of uniform black and blue.

A good point and one that I missed and that explains a lot. However, the next biggest is 5.9Gpix and that's a photo. So my query still stands I think?

Thanks for your interest.

A
Last edited by Aeriscera on Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by AlexandreJ » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:58 am

Second one is done by Richard Palmer. We talked together a lot and he gaves us input files for this case.
We're working a lot to make such stitch just as easy as a 10 images stitch.

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by klausesser » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:38 am

Aeriscera wrote:So a "good" image for me is one that is full of detail
A

Yes - i understand that. But just the details-quality is part of the problem . . . :cool:

Afaik the upcoming "HD-Viewers" from Adobe and Microsoft are not in a final state - but they´re promising.
Look
Anyway as a Mac-user i´m limited to use Zoomify.

At gigapxel.org they use a prototype viewer from Adobe to show and zoom into their extremely highres pictures - shot with an analogue camera which was used in an U2 air reconnaissance plane and which delivers 9x18" negatives.

Look at the http://www.gigapxl.org/ page and you´ll know what gigapixel highres photography COULD be like . . ;):cool:
The viewers from Adobe and Microsoft seem to be very good and fast and easy to handle.

best, Klaus

P.S.: note it´s "gigapxl.org" and not "gigapixel.org"!!
Last edited by klausesser on Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by hankkarl » Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:50 pm

Hi Klaus,

What is the Adobe HD Viewer?

Also, fasten your seatbelt before you view the Terra-pixel pano I'm working on: "Black Dog Chasing a Black Cat at Midnight Deep in a Coal Mine With the Lights Out".

This pano is giving me a huge compression ratio! ;)

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by klausesser » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:30 pm

hankkarl wrote:Hi Klaus,

What is the Adobe HD Viewer?

Also, fasten your seatbelt before you view the Terra-pixel pano I'm working on: "Black Dog Chasing a Black Cat at Midnight Deep in a Coal Mine With the Lights Out".

This pano is giving me a huge compression ratio! ;)

Hey karl!

I read about the Adobe- and the MS-Viewer in a computer-magazine. Before that i ha a contact with some people from the Washinton University where they´re are scientifically working on that project.

There are very new ways to handle very big files. I find Zoomify comfortable enough fully automated in combination with Photoshop CS3 or as an independent viewer needing some more clicks. And you can use it on your own webspace.

There´s a lot of upcoming things in the pipeline.

Interesting cats-and-dogs-in-the-dark project - do you use different compressions for cats and dogs in absolute darkness? :cool:

best, Klaus

@Aeris:
here they print 60x250cm panoramas on photo-paper in exellent quality - at reasonable costs:

http://www.saal-digital.de/content/view/48/59/
Last edited by klausesser on Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Aeriscera » Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:20 pm

klausesser wrote:here they print 60x250cm panoramas on photo-paper in exellent quality - at reasonable costs:

Gruess Gott Klaus,

"Reasonable"?! Sehr billig Ich denk. Hier it costs £40 fuer ein sheet of A0.

Danke - sehr freundlich von Ihr.

Aeris

#define SCHOOLBOY_GERMAN 0

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by klausesser » Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:44 pm

Aeriscera wrote:
klausesser wrote:here they print 60x250cm panoramas on photo-paper in exellent quality - at reasonable costs:

Gruess Gott Klaus,

"Reasonable"?! Sehr billig Ich denk. Hier it costs £40 fuer ein sheet of A0.

Danke - sehr freundlich von Ihr.

Aeris

#define SCHOOLBOY_GERMAN 0

Hi Aeris!

Your German´s really good! :cool:

best, Klaus

P.S.: the Saal quality is very good - a friend had a print 60x120cm done. Delicate colours and contrast - perfect! Saal bought the complete technology from Agfa when Agfa went down. And they know how to handle it well.
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by beeloba » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:41 pm

Aeriscera wrote:Afaik, there is only one, for Windows. I have version 0.3.1239.

There is a 0.4 Mac version as well - maybe UB only -



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by Aeriscera » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:37 pm

Aye, there are more recent versions for windows now. I am on 0.4.2331 (stitcher and uploader, and uploader works on most file types now)

Aeris

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by klausesser » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:28 pm

beeloba wrote:
Aeriscera wrote:Afaik, there is only one, for Windows. I have version 0.3.1239.

There is a 0.4 Mac version as well - maybe UB only -

Intel-Mac only . . :/
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by Castillonis » Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:16 am

The gigapan systems closed forum tells you to use the Adobe Photoshop .RAW file format ( not to be confused with RAW camera file formats) for files that are bigger than the one to two gigapixel range. There are certian settings that you need to choose. If you own a gigapan beta unit you will be able to find the information here
http://forum.gigapan.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=187&p=1006

The microsoft application HD View which is capable of displaying tiled gigapixel images including openEXR format after exporting from photoshop using a plugin. The viewer also transitions from a perspective projection for smaller FOV and transitions to another projection type for larger FOVs. The viewer is also able to apply some tone mapping operators dynamically as you explore darker and brighter portions of the gigapixel image.
http://research.microsoft.com/ivm/hdview.htm
http://forums.microsoft.com/MSR/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2158585&SiteID=37

The achilles heel of the gigapan systems beta unit is the shutter release depression servo and the use of point and shoot cameras which don't have the most convenient manual focus. Using a robot is an excellent way to minimize the variance of yaw for skys, water, or other homogenous areas of an image. You are able to stitch most of the gigapixel image using the automatic algorithms of Autopano Pro or Ptgui and then change the yaw, pitch, and roll attributes for misplaced images without restitching the entire panorama. They should support electronic shutter release for cameras that are in between the DSLR and point and shoot cameras.

I was wondering if some of the GPU gains were due to memory locality and not specialized execution units. If you can operate on the image in the graphic cards memory instead of copying between system memory/cache and the frame buffer on the graphics card memory you would realize a significant performance improvement.
Last edited by Castillonis on Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by Paul » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:35 am

Castillonis wrote:They should support electronic shutter release for cameras that are in between the DSLR and point and shoot cameras.

oops
they support it already: in the expert option you can choose shutter method "digital". this switches the output on the servo connector form a PWM-signal to 5V high. remove the monster-servo and use the trigger signal. depending on the cam you use, you may take a gentled LED to fire or you may make with little electronic skills a coupler to a remote cable.

the LED version needs that your cams has not a obligatory delay (my NV7 will add always a 2 second penalty).

as cam specs are very different it may be a little try and error game.

cheers
Paul
Paul

close, but no cigar ... ... ...

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by Aeriscera » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:49 am

Hi Paul,

Paul wrote:they support it already: in the expert option ...

What interests me is where you got this information. As a gigapanner I wondered what the expert options actually did, and when I asked other gigapanners they said "noone knows - it's not documented". So what's the secret?

A

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by Aeriscera » Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:55 am

Hi Castillonis!

Castillonis wrote:The gigapan systems closed forum tells you to use the Adobe Photoshop .RAW file format

I don't know if you were referring to my original post, but at the time I made that post I was not a gigapan owner so didn't have access to the closed forum or the most recent version of the uploader. Not that that matters. I simply wanted to let people know that the most recent version of the uploader (0.4.2331) handles more-or-less any kind of image including PS RAW; the version I had access to at the time of posting would only upload jpegs which are limited to images of less than 30,000 pixels wide - useless for gigapanners.

A

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by pns » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:10 pm

klausesser wrote:here they print 60x250cm panoramas on photo-paper in exellent quality - at reasonable costs:

http://www.saal-digital.de/content/view/48/59/

klaus, i'm hoping you can help me here (everybody else feel free to chime in, too). i was intrigued by the promise of quality at "reasonable" costs, so i took a look. i can't read or write in german, and automatic translations are not always as good as we would like, so i'm a bit fuzzy on some details. therefore, i've sent a couple of mails in english to info@saal-digital.de, getting no reply. i found what looked like an html contact form, used that too. it's been a week, no replies. do you know whether they bother to reply to english enquiries at all? would you happen to have a contact there you are willling to share?
thank you in advance!
cheers,
pns

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by Aeriscera » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:31 pm

pns wrote:it's been a week, no replies. do you know whether they bother to reply to english enquiries at all?

They do, and they say "We don't do business outside Germany" (it may have been "in England" which is where I am).

A

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by pns » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:47 pm

Aeriscera wrote:
pns wrote:it's been a week, no replies. do you know whether they bother to reply to english enquiries at all?

They do, and they say "We don't do business outside Germany" (it may have been "in England" which is where I am).
A

thanx for your reply.
that's odd, though! http://www.saal-digital.de/content/view/48/59/ reads

Lieferung nach Deutschland
Ihre Poster auf echtem Fotopapier versenden mit DPD.
Die Versandkosten betragen 5,90 Euro. Die Bezahlung erfolgt bequem per Rechnung.

Lieferung nach Europa (EU)
Ihre Poster auf echtem Fotopapier versenden mit DPD.
Die Versandkosten betragen 9,90 Euro. Die Bezahlung erfolgt bequem per Rechnung.

which google translates to

Delivery to Germany
Their posters on real photographic ship with DPD.
The shipping amount to Euro 5.90. Payment is made easy by invoice.

Delivery to Europe (EU)
Their posters on real photographic ship with DPD.
The shipping amount to 9.90 euros. Payment is made easy by invoice.

perhaps they changed their business practices and forgot to update the page? or perhaps they changed since you asked? still, what's the address from which they replied (if you don't mind)?

cheers,
pns

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by Aeriscera » Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:00 pm

It was a while ago and I don't have any record of my communication with them. It would have been around the time the Klaus posted the info - perhaps a month after.

I do recall that they said they would post to outside Germany at the time I was interested because I wanted to find out how much it would cost to post a really big print.

Fortunately for me I have since made a friend who has his own 600mm-wide printer.

A
Last edited by Aeriscera on Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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