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Color Management

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:39 am
by Michael Ezra
Alexandre, APG is a professional tool, but one extremely important feature is really missing - the Color Management.
I was able to disregard it, even though I use ProPhoto ICC and wide gamut monitor, so APG colors are completely wrong in the display, but correct when render output is opened in Photoshop and ProPhoto ICC is assigned.

Now that tonemapping options and haze removal plugin are added it is very important to have an accurate visal feedback of the colors, so color management implementations becomes vital for full professional use of APG features.

Please take a look at - may be this will make implementation of color management easier!


PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:31 pm
by tived
I second Michael's concerns.

Color is extremely important aspect of this whole process.

But thanks for the new updates


PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:44 am
by Michael Ezra
guys, any update on this?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:38 am
by AlexandreJ
In autopano engine v2.5, we don't do real color management ( meaning, we cannot convert from one color space to another one ), but we keep the one used in the input image in the output. We solved some of the issues in that area ( like when working on tiff 16 bits ).

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:50 am
by Michael Ezra
Alexandre, could you implement monitor ICC profile, so when I use ProPhoto TIF files, they would display in correct color?
Otherwise, the effect of Color Corrections, Levels (Gama) and Tonemapping is visually incorrect and these tools are very hard (and sometimes impossible) to use.
I am *not looking for conversion* into a different ICC for the output, just *accurate display* and preserving the Input ICC profile in the output.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:41 am
by AlexandreJ
If I'm right, the software has nothing to do with monitor ICC profile. It's the monitor driver only. Put the ICC there and that's it. I never did anything in photoshop to have accurate color displayed. In photoshop, you can simulate other color profile ( that means convert to another color space ). If that's what you want, we need full color management.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:59 am
by Michael Ezra
Photoshop automatically picks up the system's monitor ICC profile and does the conversion of what is displayed so that colors display correctly to the best ability of the monitor. The issue is that APG does not do that, it implicitly assumes that everything is sRGB - the monitor and the input files.

I, for example, have a wide gamut monitor (NEC 2690 WXI, close to Adobe RGB 1998) and work on tif files that are in ProPhoto ICC.
There is nothing sRGB-related here:) So when I look at these files through APG - I cannot recognize them!

But if APG is meant for professional use it MUST have full color management;)

PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:10 pm
by fma38
AlexandreJ wrote:If I'm right, the software has nothing to do with monitor ICC profile.

That's not exaclty true. When you generate a monitor profile, you actually generate 2 things: a video card linearisation, and a color profile. The video card linearisation is loaded in the LUT by the system (at startup), and so, is available by *any* application. It only ensures (x, x, x) is grey. Most people think that all is done, which is not the case.

The color profile also determines what colors your monitor really displays (when you display (255, 0, 0), what red is it?), and this profile is used as target¹ profile when an image is displayed. And this part is the responsability of the software, using a color engine (LittleCMS, ColorSync, WCS...).

¹ Color management always use 2 profiles: source, and destination. Source is the profile the file in encoded in (usually sRGB, AdobeRGB, or larger color spaces), and destination, in this case, is the monitor color space.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:17 am
by sophie5mia
Color management is important but for me tonemapping options and haze removal plugin are more important which are now provided. So I am satisfied but waiting for more improved tools.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:00 pm
by Sam
My pictures are also in ProPhoto RGB and they are in APP OS X 10.6.5 not color correct displayed. Blue is Violet, so very wrong. My monitor is calibrated with a spectrophotometer.

Most OS X applications show the colors correctly, unfortunately, APP not.

For me, this problem is not at the forefront, because I edit the images in Photoshop. And I adjust the colors, previously in the external RAW converter.

However, I think in OS X it can not be hard to implement ICC color management, for the screen.

Maybe for Linux and Windows it is more difficult to implement ICC color management.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:52 pm
by SimDC
I think Kolor should focus 100% on panorama editing.
Color editing can be done in appropriate color managed softwares (Photoshop et al.).

"ICC out" should be the same as "ICC in" on all formats (jpeg,tiff..).
If there are missing or different ICC profiles in input images, issue an alert message (it's the user's responsibility to provide compatible images).

Remains the problem of RAW input.
RAW are coded in kind of "camera specific space" and it is
the RAW Decoder software
that translates from "camera specific space" into
the color space that "you" decide (sRGB, AdobeRGB,Prophoto..).
The default output space "should" be what
you selected on the camera (I don't know for sure if it's image-specific).
APP APG doesn't give you the option to determine that space (to be passed to the decoder software)
and doesn't add a profile to the output image (at least it could be the default decoder space).

Please Kolor ! Contact the RAW decoder developper, find the default color space, and add that ICC profile to the output of a RAW panorama...

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:59 pm
by Michael Ezra
Doing tonemapping/color correction in APG on a wide gamut monitor is not possible without color management as *incorrect* color tones are being displayed.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:24 pm
by SimDC
Agree with you !

( By the way I'm glad that the date/time of (last?) picture is assigned to the panorama.
This makes sorting by date very easy. )

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:48 pm
by SimDC
Kolor should have a look at :

For what I understand
they use LittleCMS to create a 3D LUT ( r,g,b -> R,G,B) table
from "image color space" to "monitor color space".

This is done only once, at start of the program.

Then they use GPU acceleration to update images sent to graphics card. Real time.
GNU and GPL...

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:12 pm
by SimDC
By the way I strongly recommend that free software ! (My previous post)
Media Player Classic Home-Cinema (version >1.4)

It's the first time I can see my videos
with their true colors
and not with flashy colors
on my Wide-Gamut monitor !

Hint :

View-> Options
Playback -> Output
DirectShow Video Use VMR-9 (renderless)
VMR-7/VMR-9 Use Surface : 3D surfaces

Then access is granted to :

View->Renderer Settings->Color Management->Enable

Sorry for introducing external software here,
but it is related to the subject
and new
and free !!!

I'd love to see that implemented in APx...

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:22 am
by tived
sophie5mia wrote:Color management is important but for me tonemapping options and haze removal plugin are more important which are now provided. So I am satisfied but waiting for more improved tools.

You clearly do not understand what is being discussed here! Without proper color management, you can't do your tone-mapping and haze removal correctly as Michael has pointed out, as you do not know if what you are seeing is correct.

Sorry if this is a bit on the rude side here, its great that you are happy with the new implementations, but they are not related to CMS.


PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:38 am
by Ronald
In my opinion Kolor should keep the focus on control point detection to generate even more accurate panoramas and the blending process (that's the core); I'm afraid that an ICC implementation would generate more errors than benefits, at least in this moment with the new engine; it would be good to have it? Yes... but, maybe later!

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:34 pm
by hankkarl
tonemapping and color correction, etc are different in panos than in single images. Photomatix has an option for 360's, but I don't know if that's cylindrical or spherical. And APG produces some very large images which PM and other HDR packages may not be able to handle.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:40 pm
by Michael Ezra
I see it really plain simple:

Any pro-grade software that shows images on the screen needs to use color management.
There cannot be a second opinion about this, guys!