Wish List for APP1.4 #2  

Got some great idea or a feature request? Post it here and discuss it. The most requested concepts are usually implemented, as Autopano Pro / Giga is very community driven.
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by hankkarl » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:06 pm

'[bo wrote:']I always sort the pano sets after a shoot and I've never had any of the problems you describe. I've had other problems, that got solved in recent versions. It's just my workflow is different, so I don't like the generalizations you make in many of your posts here. Your problems are not everybody problems; in fact, most of the things you write about are not seen as a problem by anyone else here, in the active community.

So as much as Alexandre and the other developers might find your input useful, you have to realize that posting tens of consecutive posts (instead of using the "Edit" function) won't push the development of APP in a direction suited to your exclusive needs.

Hi Bo,

Do you sort by hand, or use Bridge to do it? Bridge has an auto-stacks feature, but its not as good as APPs--
1. it restricts you to shots that are no more than 18 seconds apart (a problem if shooting RAW with a limited buffer)
2. it looks for overlap so it can tell HDR from pano shots, so (AFIK) you can't do bracketed panos and it also takes a long time.

If its easy, it would be nice to have an option so APP creates a subdirectory for each recognized (or hand-built) image set, and move all the images into that directory, and also puts the pano files there. You would auto-detect panoramas, clean them up, move images between panos, etc, then "save into new subdirectory" just before you select "detect panorama".

But APP is a pano program, not a file manager.
Last edited by hankkarl on Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by mediavets » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:11 pm

touristguy87 wrote:...the fact that many panos would be #### if autodetected from several thousand (or tens of thousands) of images that were not shot with panos in mind doesn't mean that they would all be ####.

Aside from the fact that you have yet to post one good pano created by automated sifting through your huge collection of images to demonstrate the possible value of such an approach ....I doubt there are many people who would use such a feature even if it was available. It would in any case be a 'one time' process; thereafter, shooting prospectively, I imagine most people might plan their pano shooting just a little and process the images soon afterwards.

Development resources are not infinite and I agree with DrSlony's proposed development priorities.
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by hankkarl » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:12 pm

DrSlony wrote:My reply form is as follows:
proposal number, proposal number, proposal number, ... - summary of proposal - reason why i (do not/)agree with it, if one is required.

---

Points I agree with:
14c - multiple temp paths

---
Points I'm neutral about, meaning that I don't care if they're optionally implemented, since although they wont affect me, they might help someone... although I'd rather have that developer time spent on more important things and instead have this marginal amount of users learn to use APP and adjust their workflow accordingly:

10 - turn off prerendering - touristguy87 suggests something a bit different in fact, but I'd like to propose a button to turn off prerendering for some tasks, such as moving around images, so that people who will use APP2 and not have a GPU can do these things more quickly. Having a pano with 50 images where 20 sky images are unlinked involves spending a lot of time moving them around if one has to wait for APP to prerender each time. Would be better for those users to be able to turn off prerendering and just move around image outlines and have APP put the different operations into a processing queue. Then when they finished moving those 20 image outlines around, they hit a button and APP prerenders all.

---

Hi Maciek,

I basically agree with you, and would add:

14c- multiple temp files - should allow multiple hard disks to be used at the same time - eg processing two images, one gets saved to disk 1, the other to disk 2. somewhat eliminates the need for RAID. But I think this has been discussed before Touristguy came along.

10 - turn off prerendering - A good idea, newer GPUs are some version of PCIe, I have an AGP slot for my graphics card. Yes I have to buy a new system (but will wait till the economy gets better :) )
Last edited by hankkarl on Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:15 pm

last but not least suppose that "V2" comes out with GPU prerendering and a whole host of improvements in the pano-editor.

I *STILL* won't want to use the pano editor.

If I have to use the pano-editor, I then have to edit each pano in APP then render it and then edit it in an IP tool.

And then what about all the other improvements that I suggested? Sure some of them would be solved with the new editor, hypothetically...but most would not be. Because they are not issues with the editor.

I almost never use the editor. I will only use it if the pano has a noticeable curve or some poor rotation or something. I might go back and edit this one, just to see what I can do with it.

http://flickr.com/photos/touristguy87/3171281599/in/set-72157612160192253/

other than that I wish to avoid the editor entirely.

If I use the editor then I defeat the purpose of the auto-stitching routines.
Last edited by touristguy87 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by hankkarl » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:20 pm

touristguy87 wrote:...the general idea here is that if they would just put sufficient options in for user-control of the program you wouldn't have to worry about whether your workflow is well suited for APP.

APP could be configured to suit your workflow.

<snip>

Troll^H^H^H^H^HTouristguy87, Use the quote format as Alexandre suggested. If you don't understand it, then ask. Someone will explain it to you.

I, for one, don't read your long, longwinded posts because of this.

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by DrSlony » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:22 pm

Request for locking this thread.

I have written my response after coming back from Auschwitz today without checking the previous thread first (I was away for several days). I am now up-to-date, having scanned through the first "wish list" thread, and I see that this thread is heading in the exact same direction - misquotes, flame wars, statements about personal issues rather than technical ones, replying in ways that suggest not having read what others have written, etc. All typical signs of forum trolling. From what I see, "touristguy87" said all he had to say, and this thread is now heading in the direction of personal taunting... again.

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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:42 pm

...but...you asking to get this thread is not a personal issue?

Like I said at first. If you haters would just keep your hateful comments to yourselves, the developers could actually deal with my comments free of your distractions.

So far I've seen one reply from one of the developers, to which I've replied to in a handful of posts and there are other posts likewise that replied to the technical issues under discussion. This is post #32 and you say "it's not heading in the direction of personal taunting" and want to get the thread locked.

I have another suggestion. JUST DON'T READ THE THREAD IF IT BOTHERS YOU THAT MUCH.

When you ask someone else to lock another persons' thread? That's clearly personal.

When you call someone else a troll? That's clearly a personal issue.

Do you see me coming into *your* threads and making personal attacks on you and asking to get your threads shut down? No. That is because I am not a HATER. Like you and so many others. Hypocrites all of you.

You and the other haters, get out of my thread. Please.
Last edited by touristguy87 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:54 pm

...and I have no problem with that, because if not quoting earlier comments means that you get lost in the conversation, then you have no business in this discussion anyway. Learn to read and follow along or go find something else to do.

If I have to quote substantial parts of what was said before for you to understand what is being said now, you never really understood what was said in the first place and why would requoting it make any difference to you. I'm not going to clutter up the thread just to help you follow the conversation. You probably still won't get it, anyway.

...on that note, enough said.
Last edited by touristguy87 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:12 pm

"I'm gonna just tell you what I think . . "

You´ve been trying in thousands an thousands of letters . . would be SO nice if you could do it in a way somebody else in the universe but you would understand what you mean, genius . . . :cool:
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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:20 pm

...but you think that I haven't done that yet, which is the main problem here.

Confucius say, "1+1=2. Why? Because. What more do you need to know?"

The more that I try to explain the more that I risk confusing those who still don't understand, as well as a section of those who do.
So there is a certain argument in support of the position that discourse within moderation is best.

One should not spend eternity trying to explain a few simple concepts. One should either find a better audience, or a better concept to explain. Or at least, a better method of explanation.

But just hopping on my back because you don't like the way that I'm explaining it and asking for the whole thread to be shut down is simply ridiculous.

And likewise even I can look at my post count and see that you are exaggerating to a ridiculous degree, implying that you are not being objective. At all. Merely argumentative.
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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:26 pm

...in science we have this problem often where people attain highly-advanced degrees and think that good science can only be done with expensive equipment used in a rigorous manner. And indeed often they hide behind that equipment and those procedures.

And then they wonder why the work that they do is irrelevant to most people.

I think that's the obvious difference between "science" and "technology". When you confuse one for the other, you've got real issues.
It means that you don't really understand *what* you're doing, just how it's done.

This is the difference between a scientist and a pedant.
A scientist will use his knowledge, intellect, logic and willingness to experiment to figure out better ways to do something.
A pedant will learn how to do something one way and then forever after say that it has to be done that way, and only when it becomes prohibitively expensive or difficult to do it that way, but they have no choice other than to do it, will they even be willing to explore other ways of doing it. The pedant doesn't think, he merely acquires knowledge, and expects everyone else to do things the same way that he has to do it. But he only has to do it that way because he doesn't think very well. As a consequence he substitutes effort and resources for intelligence and can only fail if he cannot adapt his knowledge to the situation at hand. The scientist on the other hand will only fail when he cannot find sufficient resources or make a good enough effort to match his brilliance at solving the problem.

...but in any case talking about APP is only going to get me so far. Especially on *this* forum.
Last edited by touristguy87 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:41 pm

"The ONE thing that you can do to make both groups happy is to put in more than enough options to allow the user to configure it the way that they want it to be."

But - of course - it must be run on your laptop and 1GB RAM i suppose . . !?
Do you really expect it would work throwing some thousand of pictures into ANY program and after 10seconds 200 panos come out? :rolleyes:

That seems the be essence of your masses of text-lines - at least in my eyes. Might there be a way for you to concentrate your floppy mind on any essential points! And before that could you get a bit more familiar with what you´re talking about?

Maybe a very big surprise for you - but there are people who are not only able to think but also to communicate their thoughts in a civilised and eloquent manner.

Your thinking seems to be extremely confused and eloquence isn´t existent. Hard to dicuss along a logical line with such a maniac to be honest.
Everytime you don´t understand you start to offend others. This way you´ll never understand what you´re talking about in-deep.

Try to seperate your thoughts and put them one after the other. Concentrate!
To me you appear like a heavy drug-user who´s lighter moments could be interesting but are too fiew to communicate intensively. You appear to be driven - by what?

Of course all the others around you are barely idiots - and how could idiots like us understand a genius like you? No way.
:cool:
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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:42 pm

"But - of course - it must be run on your laptop and 1GB RAM i suppose . . !?
Do you really expect it would work throwing some thousand of pictures into ANY program and after 10seconds 200 panos come out? roll"

do you think that stupid sarcasm is going to help the discussion?

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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:49 pm

let me just put it succinctly,

1-If I minimize my ramdrive and then run APP I would like to be able to point it at a set of directories and have it scan all those folders

(maybe even the trees below them, maybe not...there could be a filter for this too...it would be enough if the file or folder simply has the word _pano_ in the name, APP will ignore the contents of that file or folder and continue to scan on down the tree through it for new files...also it would be good if I could put folders that aren't in the same tree in there with one or two clicks...basically I don't want to end up creating one group and then adding files and folders to it manually, or having APP add every file & folder in a tree to one group automatically...or having to resort my files to get the autodetection routine to run well)

and have it combine all the files into one group. It would then, ideally create panos that match a set of specifications that I put in, one of which would be the MP of the final pano, and the reason for that is that when I go to render the panos using a temp folder on the ramdrive, I know that the temp files will all fit on the ramdrive because that is determined by the MP of the final pano when smartblend is used (otherwise APP renders the pano in memory).

2-To do this [put a lot of files in one big group and autodetect panos from that group] APP would have to be able to reserve a lot of memory for itself so it needs to be able to reserve more than 1/3rd of the system memory which is the current limit, and is not enough to do this even on machines with more than 1GB of ram, if enough files are included. The more ram the system has, the less efficient APP is in using that ram. On this note the autodetection and prerender routines should not bomb when APP runs out of ram. It is crazy, it gets 75% of the way through a set of groups of files and bombs because it can't get ram to do one more prerender when it's using less than half the system memory and half of the system memory is being used by the disk cache! And then all the prerenders behind it have the same error. You have to throw 3GB more into the system to give APP one more GB to work with (and then APP will use its available ram with only 10% efficiency in autodetcting and prerendering panos because of the following problem).

3-Also the specifications would keep APP from generating "stupid" panos that I would never want to see, and this would include not letting it create panos that are too small in MP, FOV (both of these relative to the source images with the largest MP and the widest FOV) and/or are just stacked images, for starters. Just for a start that would be huge. That would keep it from making 20 stacked panos for each wide-FOV pano, from a set of images. Literally this happens to me every time I try this.

4-Next I'd want to be able to turn off any and all exposure-optimization. I don't want it to push the shots to the right "automatically". I might not mind if that is done "conservatively" but I have no control over what happens here when APP does it.

That's four general improvements that would go a LONG way to making this a much more useful & flexible program.

None of which have to do with the specific ram available in the machine. Or the pano-editor. Or the batch-renderer.

5- would be put in a switch so that if the pano config file settings conflict with the global settings, the batch-renderer will use the global settings without prompting the user for each one. Also, I no longer have to restart APP just to get it to take the new global settings.

Let's compromise. I could live with 1-3 as a start. But I would really want to see 4 & 5 soon. I have no interest in improvements in the editor short of a size control for the thumbnails and a way to stop the redundant prerenders in away that doesn't depend on the GPU "feature".

That's all I have to say for now for fear of confusing anyone about this.
Last edited by touristguy87 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:03 pm

touristguy87 wrote:"But - of course - it must be run on your laptop and 1GB RAM i suppose . . !?
Do you really expect it would work throwing some thousand of pictures into ANY program and after 10seconds 200 panos come out? roll"

do you think that stupid sarcasm is going to help the discussion?

That was a question - no sarcasm. I just try to figure out what you mean in the end.

Besides, Robert: nobody hates you here i think.

Figuring out what you might have in mind i suppose you want your panos very small in all cases - just screen-resolution and without the ability to zoom in? Only for being displayed on YOUR screen? Not on a 24" or 30"? Or projected bigger? Never printed?
Your panos need no quality - they don´t have to be sharp and correctly exposed, you always shoot at high ISO, you always shoot handheld, you never shoot following any concept.

Again: nor sarcasm - just questions.

You want to throw all exposures from - let´s say - a 2GB card into APP and let it sort the shots into groups which are to be stitched as panos. But you don´t want an editor - the global presets must be in a way to fit ALL to stitch automatically. No editing geometrics, no color-editing.
Am i right?
Last edited by klausesser on Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:21 pm

...last but not least I realize that it must do the autostitching before it can determine final pano MP but at the least it can quickly say that this pano is little more than an exposure-stack and dismiss it out of hand BEFORE the prerender step.

If the options are in there to do that.

It seems that there must be some way to calculate the MP of the final pano once the layout of the images is known, which must be after the autostitching but before the prerendering. At that point I would want to look at the final-pano MP and FOV and "intelligently" decide whether or not to even continue on with that pano. If it would not be at least X MP relative to the MP of the source-image with the largest FOV, discard it. If the final FOV in either dimension is not at least X% of the FOV in the smallest dimension of the source-image with the largest FOV, discard it. It's little better than simply looking at the shot with the largest FOV.
Or you could say "if I start with 3:2 shots I want to end up with at least a 2:1 pano", before or after cropping.
There are ways to do this that just aren't that complicated, and they would fit in a code-module between the output of the autostitcher and the prerenderer. But this would vastly boost the efficiency of APP.

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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:24 pm

"Your panos need no quality - they don´t have to be sharp and correctly exposed, you always shoot at high ISO, you always shoot handheld, you never shoot following any concept."

Don't be silly.

"You want to throw all exposures from - let´s say - a 2GB card into APP and let it sort the shots into groups which are to be stitched as panos. But you don´t want an editor - the global presets must be in a way to fit ALL to stitch automatically. No editing geometrics, no color-editing.
Am i right?"

Of course not. APP already functions well enough if you merely dump all the files into one folder. I would prefer for it to use just one group, but I can handle that with the controls as it is now. It will still be memory-inefficient and it will still create a ton of panos that I don't want. What I need is the ability to take a whole tree (ignoring the filtering of files and folders in that tree) and make ONE group and sort through it for panos.

This does not even consider using folders in different subtrees of the same tree. Or on different volumes entirely.

I explained this in detail a few posts ago.

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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:27 pm

"Figuring out what you might have in mind i suppose you want your panos very small in all cases - just screen-resolution and without the ability to zoom in? Only for being displayed on YOUR screen? Not on a 24" or 30"? Or projected bigger? Never printed?"

I would like to be able to set the final pano MP globally. To different resolutions, for various reasons, at various times.
Without having to change that option in each pano-config file.

Technically I can do this with a few lines of code in Matlab but I'd prefer to not have to go that route.
Not to mention that when dispatching the panos to the final renderer you still have to check off the rendering settings for each pano.
Unfortunately the batch-config files only point to the pano-config files. You could change the resolution parameters in the batch-config files and never have to muck around with them in APP. But you'd have to write code to do that or edit them by hand.

A nice global option to just use the global resolution settings, and the ability to specify the final pano MP, image-quality, rendering style, all the other stuff in the render tab, instead of what is in the pano-config file, would be very nice. And to just go ahead and process the pano without having to "ok" this for each pano to be rendered.

am I repeating myself yet? :)
Last edited by touristguy87 on Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:28 pm

touristguy87 wrote:But this would vastly boost the efficiency of APP.

No. It makes no sense in the real life or panoramaphotography.
You should use Photosynth - it´s nice! I´m very curious what we can expect from it.
But it has barely to do with what we understand as panorama-photography here.
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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:31 pm

" touristguy87 wrote:

But this would vastly boost the efficiency of APP.

. It makes no sense in the real life or panoramaphotography.
You should use Photosynth - it´s nice! I´m very curious what we can expect from it.
But it has barely to do with what we understand as panorama-photography here."

Ok since you came to this conclusion in my first thread, and now again here, how about you just STFU and let other people talk?

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by klausesser » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:31 pm

touristguy87 wrote:What I need is the ability to take a whole tree (ignoring the filtering of files and folders in that tree) and make ONE group and sort through it for panos.

I don´t understand that. Anybody does?

P.S.: what does "STFU" mean?
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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:32 pm

"

touristguy87 wrote:

What I need is the ability to take a whole tree (ignoring the filtering of files and folders in that tree) and make ONE group and sort through it for panos.

I don´t understand that. Anybody does?
"

because it will not include files from different groups in one pano.

the groups effectively presort the files into pano "clusters".
Panos from one group will not include files from another group.

I have no idea what the group-creation criteria are...certainly no way to adjust them other than "average size", "sort delay time" and whatever else pops up when you hit "browse folders".
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by touristguy87 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:39 pm

it doesn't mean "stop trolling for us", in case you were wondering.

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by klausesser » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:39 pm

touristguy87 wrote:because it will not include files from different groups in one pano.

I´ll try to understand:

you shoot a bunch of motives as handheld pano-shots. Coming home you feed the card to APP and want APP to take them as they are and sort them into related groups to be stitched - and stitch them into panos using a global setting so that there´s no need for editing at all?
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by klausesser » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:40 pm

touristguy87 wrote:it doesn't mean "stop trolling for us", in case you were wondering.

?
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