Wish List for APP1.4 #2  

Got some great idea or a feature request? Post it here and discuss it. The most requested concepts are usually implemented, as Autopano Pro / Giga is very community driven.
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by klausesser » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:08 am

"This is an Internet technical forum. Not your living room, not even your house."

How could we forget, oh Lord: it´s YOURS. We all have to apologize to occupy YOUR living room with our stupidity, our lack of global importance, our lack of intelligence and culture compared to your ingeniousity and god-like greatness . . (here comes in the choir, please)

Let´s all praise you - and let´s sing psalms and sermons to your delight, let us crawl the floor in front of you to be near to your wisdom and something . . (some organ-chords now - toccata and fugue would be appropriate. At least.)
:lol::lol:

"And my request to you and to the people who think like you do, is to just keep your nose out of my thread. Please."

No.
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by touristguy87 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:42 am

Now you guys are just being straight-up trolls.

Moderator, I did not start this thread to collect social commentary much less social lectures.
Please delete all the posts in this thread that are not directly-related to the technical issues in my first post.

Likewise the ones from posters who felt it necessary to tell me how to use APP, or who "suggested" another package.
And the opinions on what the developers will do, and why.
They are just clogging up this thread with nonsense.

I see that in spite of repeated requests to not do this, certain people will attempt to do it anyway just to try to prove a point to themselves in spite of the detrimental effect of such posts to the discussion of technical issues in this thread. So please clean this thread up. Gracias.

LOL it would be quite funny if they deleted or locked this thread, because no matter what they give as the reason for doing it, it would still be in response to the posts by the "moralists" here. And then they couldn't pontificate any further! :) and if they delete my technical comments then it just goes to prove the low level of esteem that use-feedback is held here. Yet not doing anything at this point would mean that they are happy to see legitimate technical threads degenerate into a finger-pointing free-for-all. Quite a challenge.

[answer: moderator refuses to either be led around by the nose or baited into taking action one way or the other ;)]
Last edited by touristguy87 on Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by touristguy87 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:59 pm

"But that's not all! Autopano Pro is incredibly fast. It will take your workflow and productivity to new heights.
Autopano Pro is extremely efficient, even in the most difficult cases. And, at any time, you can take control of all software automations to achieve perfect results. Put it to the test! "

...based on my "tests", I think not.

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by klausesser » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:06 pm

touristguy87 wrote:"But that's not all! Autopano Pro is incredibly fast. It will take your workflow and productivity to new heights.
Autopano Pro is extremely efficient, even in the most difficult cases. And, at any time, you can take control of all software automations to achieve perfect results. Put it to the test! "

...based on my "tests", I think not.

Big surprise, i´d say. :cool:
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by touristguy87 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:06 pm

ha...

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0902/09022002ricohinterview.asp

For more extreme lighting situations, there is also a built-in high-dynamic range mode. This shoots two, differently exposed, images consecutively and combines them to enable to capture of a greater dynamic range than would be possible in a single exposure. The company claims the CX1 will be able to capture and convey dynamic range of up to 12EV. However, Hongoh stresses that its feature isn't trying to produce the fashionable, heavily-processed 'HDR-look.' 'it aims to portray the scene in as natural a way as possible,' he says.

http://www.dpreview.com/gallery/olympus_9-18_4-5p6_samples/

18mm is 70 deg FOV, 35mm is 42 deg fov...so you could shoot the same pano here with 4 shots vs shooting it with 16. If you needed to shoot a pano at all...though that would be putting 10MP across that 70deg FOV, though that would be *plenty* of pixels for a poster-sized print, with mild upsampling. Even without upsampling you'd need maybe 4 shots for a 30MP 2" diagonal poster in 4:3 or 3:2.

So is APP becoming a niche product in front of our eyes? I still think that the utility of making panos for people who prefer to shoot handheld should not be so-quickly dismissed. But that's just me.

a little more interesting reading for those who like me have just dumped xp and "upgraded" to Ubuntu, and who now want to take advantage of the built-in Linux ramdisk to run smartblend at high speed:

http://www.google.com/search?q=linux+ramdisk&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a

gotta like the one where it's a loadable module that you can unload, resize and reload all without restarting Linux...or paying for it :)
Last edited by touristguy87 on Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by beeloba » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:38 am

Four pages to tell us that you are a master in Dp Review comments…
What a hell ! where is your website on which we could appreciate your work, and make real comments on the difficulties you encounter!
We like new members that are trying to find solutions to their issues…
You seem to argue from the first post you sent…
Arguing is a privilege of thinking people that are worried with bad results…
I don't know who is leading you in terms of anger with your criticism, but this is very funny to read what you say about APP…
I'd love to read your comments on Adobe forum suggestion :)
And also on Realwiz Stitcher or PTGui forum…
I'll find that very funny to see the answers, if they are any :)

Welcome to that forum and have very good time in arguing …
I really wonder why they are on a four pages thread, very weird for me…
No friendly smiley, no sorry, just good luck… :lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't expect me to ever answer…

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by touristguy87 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:42 am


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by touristguy87 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:53 pm

at the moment I'm trying to render a pano based on 18 G9 raw shots that I took of the fresh snow in my backyard. Figured that I'd have at least one decent snow shot taken at the house.

So I shot them handheld, using the P mode of the camera, basically 2x3, using 3-shot AEB with a 2/3eV step, -2/3eV bias. And fired up APP 1.4 for Linux and away we went.

First step I see that the folder-browser will let me auto-detect the pano but not auto-save the pano config file or auto-render the pano, like the Windows version. There is no way to disable the auto-level, so after it finishes converting the raw files and opens up the pano in the editor (and prerenders twice for no apparent reason) I try to disable the auto-level in the levels tool but there is no way to *disable* it there. I can change the "optimization" to either "monochrome-bias" or "color-channel bias" and so just on a lark I select color-channel bias. And it prerenders what looks like a decent prerender so I auto-crop it, save the pano config file and exit the editor and dispatch the pano to the batch-renderer.

...and I have to admit: all of this happened fairly quickly and painlessly. *Surprisingly* quickly and painlessly. It was almost like I was working with 6MP jpegs not 12MP raw files.

Which...makes me wonder: is it working with the raw data or the embedded camera jpegs in the G9 raw files, which are only 6MP? Medium quality & resolution?

But a host of questions arise from this process.
1-...where are the dcraw flags in APP and how can I change them? I can't. The raw-conversion process is totally transparent. It's almost as if dcraw doesn't actually have any flags or even better, there's no *need* for flags in dcraw.

1b:...what happens if I want to reopen the pano? Is it going to yet-again convert the raw files, taking 5-10min to do so? Has anyone quantified the IQ benefit from working with raw files vs working with jpeg sources?

1c: at least since I save all my raw files in one directory (sorted by camera but that could easily change) this makes it a lot easier to search through them for panos ;)

2-...who knows what the hell is happening in terms of HDR or DRO. Also this is totally transparent. In case my point here is transparent, there should be some goals, "settings", something that you can push around and see the effects *somehow*. Otherwise again there is no point in having HDR/DRO tools with user-configurable options.

3-...why do I have to wait for it to prerender twice just to get into the editor?

So it's cranking along slowly rendering the pano and whenever it gets done I will update this. So far it's about a 1/5th of the way through (I'm rendering it entirely on drive using smartblend) and I expect that it it will take another 2 hours to finish. No matter what, though, it beats trying to find a p&s with a 20mm lens.


4-suppose that I not only wanted to pause the batch-renderer, but stop it, restart my machine for some reason, and then pick up from where I left off? What if it *does* crash...is there no snapshot that it can refer to? So far it is 1/2hr after my last .pano save and it's barely a quarter of the way through rendering the pano. This pano will be about 25MP (7000x3500, 91deg FOV equivalent to a 14mm lens). What if it was a 600MP pano? What if the power goes out? Any decent editor would have some auto save-mode, backup-mode in case the program crashed halfway through. At this point if anything happened to APP I'd have to start completely over, reload the pano-config file, reprerender, restart the render. All I can do here is save the batch-render configuration.
Last edited by touristguy87 on Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by touristguy87 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:12 pm

pps

I still say that this is *far* cooler than trying to find, buy and carry an 14-24mm lens. Kudos for that alone.

5-how best to deal with things that move in the pano. My preferred method is to not use shots where the thing that has moved is where I don't want it to be. But what if you can't help but to use such shots? Why isn't there a way to "mark out" the things that move from where the user doesn't want them to be, in the prerender? AlienSkin has a neat "auto-clone" tool in their image-editor plugin that will let the user somewhat automatically remove unwanted items from an image, perhaps that would be of use in this situation but that means either doing it after the pano is rendered or fixing the components pre-render. But still it's there. I still think that of the image "sections" that APP would consider using for such parts of a pano, the user should be able to prioritize them. It's nice that it tries to do it (and so many things) automatically but still manual correction is quite useful (as the mere existence of the pano editor proves).

The general theory that I would like to see is " "assist", but not "replace", and certainly not "prevent" ". The main thing that APP does not prevent the user from doing is using another tool.

Well, all done after 1 hr rendering. Not bad.
Last edited by touristguy87 on Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by touristguy87 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:08 pm

...unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way to uncrop the pano after saving the .pano file. There isn't a "crop" parameter in the config file so I have to re-detect on the group to generate a new pano file. Luckily as long as I still have the group open in APP, that takes about 5 seconds (it even prerendered it quickly after clicking the editor button). Ok no real benefit there, unless I want to use a clone tool to fill in the missing parts. But still. It should apply crop settings that can be undone fairly easily in the pano config file alone, at least in the editor.

...by the way I see a fair amount of CA here but in terms of distortion it looks great.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/touristguy87/3323963298/sizes/o/
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by touristguy87 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:10 pm

...not interested, dictionary-boy.
Last edited by touristguy87 on Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by Gordon » Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:33 am

touristguy87 wrote:...not interested, dictionary-boy.
"Please remember that other new users could be reading what you write..."

This is more like a 4 page personal diary/blog :rolleyes:

DIATRIBE

1archaic : a prolonged discourse
2: a bitter and abusive speech or writing
3: ironic or satirical criticism

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diatribe
Last edited by Gordon on Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by touristguy87 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:13 am

...that's better than being a troll, in several threads, like you, don't you think?

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by DrSlony » Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:45 am

touristguy87:
- you can disable auto-level, as I wrote in your first wishlist thread.
- dcraw can't be adjusted, which is a pity imho because I agree that it would be nice to have some control over its behaviour. Of course anyone who wants top quality will not feed APP RAW files but process them first in a dedicated raw converter, but that doesn't mean that not being able to choose the highlight recovery method or demosaicing algorithm is better than being able to do so.
- "Has anyone quantified the IQ benefit from working with raw files vs working with jpeg source" RAW wins. How visible the difference will be depends on how much adjustment the images in APP and the final pano will need.
- "So far it is 1/2hr after my last .pano save and it's barely a quarter of the way through rendering the pano." Are you saying you save the pano several times during rendering? That's of no benefit.
- to see the whole panorama after it has been cropped (regardless of whether you did it on a "fresh" pano or on a previously saved one) use the Image button.

Please remember that other new users could be reading what you write, and when you make false statements ("APP cant do x I cant do y") then they might be learning false things... in the future rather ask than state incorrectly.

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by Gordon » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:25 am

touristguy87 wrote:...that's better than being a troll, in several threads, like you, don't you think?

DrSlony wrote:Please remember that other new users could be reading what you write, and when you make false statements ("APP cant do x I cant do y") then they might be learning false things... in the future rather ask than state incorrectly.

I as opposed to some members, try to learn from the more experienced users in this forum and exchange ideas ect in a civilised manner, the term threads does not I believe apply to me. I endeavour to read all threads/topics/forums to gain knowledge which is seldom imparted by yourself as others have also observed. The whole purpose as a user is not to be trollified, not to endure triteness and pugwash to the 10x, and not to be misled. Hence your pontificating is diatribe.

DIATRIBE

1archaic : a prolonged discourse
2: a bitter and abusive speech or writing
3: ironic or satirical criticism

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diatribe
Last edited by Gordon on Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by touristguy87 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:06 am

Gordon:

you remind me of Desenex...because you hang around my feet like a fungus.

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by touristguy87 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:20 am

DrSlony wrote:touristguy87:
- you can disable auto-level, as I wrote in your first wishlist thread.

...then there must be a good reason that I wrote, again, that it couldn't be disabled, in *this* thread. I wonder what it was? Perhaps a second reading of my statement to that effect is in order here. For you.
DrSlony wrote:- dcraw can't be adjusted, which is a pity imho because I agree that it would be nice to have some control over its behaviour. Of course anyone who wants top quality will not feed APP RAW files but process them first in a dedicated raw converter, but that doesn't mean that not being able to choose the highlight recovery method or demosaicing algorithm is better than being able to do so.

Interesting opinion because I received several comments from Expert Sources that letting APP process the raw files was the way to "top quality".

touristguy87 wrote:- "Has anyone quantified the IQ benefit from working with raw files vs working with jpeg source"
DrSlony wrote:RAW wins. How visible the difference will be depends on how much adjustment the images in APP and the final pano will need.


Yes...thank you for that highly-useful reply. I had no idea. I could never have guessed!
touristguy87 wrote:"So far it is 1/2hr after my last .pano save and it's barely a quarter of the way through rendering the pano."
DrSlony wrote:Are you saying you save the pano several times during rendering? That's of no benefit.


...then why would I do that...even if that could be done, possibly, somehow?
I said "after my last DOT-pano save". That is, the last time I saved the pano config file.

How are those new glasses working for you? "Very well", I see.

DrSlony wrote:to see the whole panorama after it has been cropped (regardless of whether you did it on a "fresh" pano or on a previously saved one) use the http://www.autopano.net/wiki/images-en/4/4b/Fit.png button.

Why yes indeed that does work. Thank you for telling me.

DrSlony wrote:Please remember that other new users could be reading what you write, and when you make false statements ("APP cant do x I cant do y") then they might be learning false things... in the future rather ask than state incorrectly.

Following that logic no one should say anything because what they say might be "false". Whether knowingly false or not.
Does that also go for saying something that might be illogical?
What about saying something that might be outright stupid?

Maybe we should just shut down this entire forum just in case someone says something on it somewhere that misleads a new user? Even if it's entirely true, just perhaps too complicated or confusing for a new user to follow? ANY new user?

Get a grip, dude. It's also quite possible that *you* are wrong, yes? So why did you write back to me? Take your own advice. I wouldn't write something on here that I know is wrong, or that *might* be wrong, I just wrote my observations which I THINK I'm able to remember and write-down *accurately*. Your ability to follow along with my observations is another issue.

I dare say that no one *intelligent* is going to be adversely affected by what they read in one message, especially if someone follows up and corrects them or points out something they don't know. Because they are not going to leap to conclusions based simply one an erroneous statement. If they are intelligent. If they are not intelligent then it's pretty-much hopeless. Likewise, an intelligent new user won't even be confused by some totally-irrational comment like the one that you just made. But even if they *are* confused they won't remain confused for long if they just keep reading along. After all that's what forums are for, to separate the wheat from the chaff, through discourse. Or is that "false" too.

Or am I wrong and it's just a place for you and a few others to hang out and dispense Great Wisdom & The Immutable Truth? Because of course, you're *never* wrong. And *everything* that you say makes perfect sense.
Last edited by touristguy87 on Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by touristguy87 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:23 am

ps
the button that you refer to is the "autofit" button and it does indeed work to restore the pre-cropped prerender view even after the prerender has been cropped in the editor and saved. Thanks for pointing that out...but...

It would have been better if you hadn't surrounded it with so much nonsense, though.

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by touristguy87 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:46 am

<just for fun>

"So I shot them handheld, using the P mode of the camera, basically 2x3, using 3-shot AEB with a 2/3eV step, -2/3eV bias. And fired up APP 1.4 for Linux and away we went.

First step I see that the folder-browser will let me auto-detect the pano but not auto-save the pano config file or auto-render the pano, like the Windows version. There is no way to disable the auto-level, so after it finishes converting the raw files and opens up the pano in the editor (and prerenders twice for no apparent reason) I try to disable the auto-level in the levels tool but there is no way to *disable* it there."

Entirely accurate rendition of the process. In the folder-browser window in the Linux version of APP 1.4.2 there is no checkbox for the auto-level. There is however a way to disable the auto-level (supposedly) if you go into the global settings and clear the checkbox there, and that supposedly is going to work for the pano. But there's no way to do it in the *folder-browser* or in the *pano editor*. Like there is in the Windows version. But wait, now I'm repeating myself!!!!

I hope that I'm not confusing anyone by saying this a THIRD time for the kids fresh off the short-bus.

Continuing on I say "I make use of the auto-level to automatically maximize the per-channel contrast". Thus implicitly, at that point I do not wish to disable the auto-level, in fact I actually *just made use of* the auto-level feature.

So after reading all that why do you tell me a 2nd time how to disable the auto-level? For sheer redundancy? Because you have serious reading-comprehension problems?

"...unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way to uncrop the pano after saving the .pano file."

...nothing wrong with that...for those of us who are fluent in English...and logic...the word "seem" playing a key role in this sentence. Though all is not as it seems and indeed the red rectangle is the key to undoing the crop without exiting the editor and reprocessing the group file to redetect the pano from scratch. One would simply not logically expect that the "autofit" button (either labeled as such with a popup label or an icon of an oval with arrows expanding to a rectangle, vs an icon of a rectangle with arrows expanding to an oval or some random shape) would undo the crop [speaking of which there is no "undo" command or button in the editor short of the history tool], or that if so, one would logically expect that such a button would be labeled "uncrop" and not "autofit", but I guess that's just me. I though that hitting the crop button again might undo the crop...it didn't...and certainly I didn't expect that to happen after I saved the pano-config file. Just in case I tried it and it still didn't undo the crop, but now I see how to do that without reprocessing the group and redetecting the pano. Thank you.

I guess that I also could have used the history list but I didn't think of that at the time.
Last edited by touristguy87 on Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by touristguy87 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:02 am

anyway DrSlony, you are just proving a point that I've made to someone else on another forum several times. It takes about 0.0002 seconds to be stupid. The consequences can be vast and long-lasting.

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by klausesser » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:41 am

touristguy87 wrote:It takes about 0.0002 seconds to be stupid. The consequences can be vast and long-lasting.

i guess you must have made it in a fraction of this time . . . .
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by mediavets » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:46 am

touristguy87 wrote:I guess that I also could have used the history list

yes...
http://www.autopano.net/wiki/action/view/Panorama_Editor#History
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by mediavets » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:49 am

touristguy87 wrote:indeed the red rectangle is the key to undoing the crop without exiting the editor and reprocessing the group file to redetect the pano from scratch.

yes...
http://www.autopano.net/wiki/action/view/Geometry_Editing#Auto_Fit
Last edited by mediavets on Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:30 am

I just read your answers to DRSlony.

And i must say that your behaviour is UNBELIEVABLE and disgusting.
Dispite of all your offenses against him - or others - he tried to tell you where you´re mistaking and tried to help you to handle the application a bit better.
Your replies are new offenses and idiotic blabbering from dusk till dawn.

You have no style, no tools to behave among intelligent and educated people. Yor ability to communicate is on a backstreet level.

You constantly critizise people here for not speaking your native languager "fluent" - what about you? Do you speak any foreign language "fluent"? Wie steht´s mit Deinem Deutsch? What about your French? Do you speak a "fluent" Polish?
How dare you to offend others about their attempts to help you and to explain to YOU facts in YOUR language!!!

You are a dramatically frustrated, bitter, poor individual. To me it seems you live on the shadowy side of life - and i feel very sorry for you. But i don´t accept such a behavior.

Not only your´re obviously not of sufficient intellect - that wouldn´t be of any problem. But you are highly agressive in a ridicoulously most self-opinionated way and lack all kind of humor and eloquence. And that´s painful.
Last edited by klausesser on Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gordon
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by Gordon » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:11 pm

touristguy87 wrote:Gordon:

you remind me of Desenex...because you hang around my feet like a fungus.

Recoursing to insults now.... how unlike you.

(Kind words: Do not dig your own grave with a tea spoon...
EGA 1921)

DIATRIBE

1archaic : a prolonged discourse
2: a bitter and abusive speech or writing
3: ironic or satirical criticism
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diatribe
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