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 Post subject: HDR feature idea
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:10 pm 
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I've noticed that a number of users have requested more HDR flexibility. I'd like that too, but I don't expect full HDR processing to be built into APG.

I'd like to be able to add bracketed stacks to APG as usual, and have it calculate control points as usual.

Here's the difference: after the control points are calculated, I would like to have an option to use that one set of control points to generate stitched output of each of the exposure "layers".

In other words, have one master set of control points that can be used to generate identical stitches of the -2EV, 0EV and +2 EV "layers".

That would allow the stitched layers to be reliably imported into other programs such as photomatix or PhotoShop for the actual HDR blending.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:39 pm 
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Hi..

In my view there should be a 3rd Kolor software application; where all reference to HDR/LDR is stripped away from apg..., a HDR/LDR software application specially built and dedicated for use with apg.. Perhaps even extended software to use with laptops working similar to Promote or many other software/hardware to increase the flexible EV range.. It is clear to me that bracketed images are essential for achieving desirable results. If software was built, all issues with apg HDR/LDR would be gone. The fused images should drop into apg faultlessly where stitching would then take place, which after-all, this is what apg was built for., but is certainly not built to facilitate the HDR/LDR process at this present time..

Destiny..

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:16 am 
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mosleyhgp wrote:
I've noticed that a number of users have requested more HDR flexibility. I'd like that too, but I don't expect full HDR processing to be built into APG.

I'd like to be able to add bracketed stacks to APG as usual, and have it calculate control points as usual.

Here's the difference: after the control points are calculated, I would like to have an option to use that one set of control points to generate stitched output of each of the exposure "layers".

In other words, have one master set of control points that can be used to generate identical stitches of the -2EV, 0EV and +2 EV "layers".

That would allow the stitched layers to be reliably imported into other programs such as photomatix or PhotoShop for the actual HDR blending.

Hello,
I use the following tip for doing this :
once my pano is ready, in the layers editor, I uncheck all but one layer an export the panorama.
I do the same for each layers.
after that, I have one output files for each bracket.

a direct & faster way to do this would be nice... it could be an option in the render window.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:44 pm 
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I see pros for both suggestions. what is better? hm. and isnt such Option available? I mean the saving as template Option and than if loading the Images of next EV layer you can load/apply the saved template...

a Pixel identical stitch for bracketed layers based on a identical CP Point-Matrix may work, but maybe not. if you in extremm use a -8EV layer many parts are dark I guess. when the CP-Point Matrix from the 0EV layer is applied, mybe it cant work, what should be stitched if nothing/no pattern can be seen anymore in the darkness...
And even if this does work... did you ever try to take 3 x 8GB tiff files and feed with These files your HDR Software? Oloneo refuses because of filesize... photomatix is smarter does make you aware it can not Display it and than will open some sort of preview to work with... so in General such HDR Software is not capable to handle such big filesizes...

Destinys idea would be cool. a dedicated HDR application from kolor which is spezialized in handling really big panofiles and giving the enduser HDR Settings Options like photomatix, oloeno and others...
(but I asume if today the start button for such an Project would be pressed, a first result will take 2 years from now...)
I would sign a preorder today...

Liebe Gruesse
Georg

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:48 pm 
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gkaefer wrote:
a Pixel identical stitch for bracketed layers based on a identical CP Point-Matrix may work, but maybe not. if you in extremm use a -8EV layer many parts are dark I guess. when the CP-Point Matrix from the 0EV layer is applied, mybe it cant work, what should be stitched if nothing/no pattern can be seen anymore in the darkness...

Agree. You´d definitely need an xml. Many users are over-challenged to use the xml for only ONE layer . . .

gkaefer wrote:
Destinys idea would be cool. a dedicated HDR application from kolor which is spezialized in handling really big panofiles and giving the enduser HDR Settings Options like photomatix, oloeno and others...

Why not adding a movie-editor, a post-pro-editor, a special-effects-option, a DOF calculator, an astrological-application, an USB-Espresso-machine . . :D:cool:

Specialised tasks need specialized applications.

Handling "really big" HDR-pano is easy: use an HDR-app FIRST and THEN stitch the mapped images (i´m suggesting that for years now . . :D)

The time it takes a stitcher to stitch and to edit the stitch for correct CPs using 8 layers of bracketing takes much more effort than to HDR/tonemap the sets first and stitch them as usual.

best, Klaus

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Last edited by klausesser on Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:49 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
gkaefer wrote:
a Pixel identical stitch for bracketed layers based on a identical CP Point-Matrix may work, but maybe not. if you in extremm use a -8EV layer many parts are dark I guess. when the CP-Point Matrix from the 0EV layer is applied, mybe it cant work, what should be stitched if nothing/no pattern can be seen anymore in the darkness...

Agree. You´d definitely need an xml. Many users are over-challenged to use the xml for only ONE layer . . .

gkaefer wrote:
Destinys idea would be cool. a dedicated HDR application from kolor which is spezialized in handling really big panofiles and giving the enduser HDR Settings Options like photomatix, oloeno and others...

Why not adding a movie-editor, a post-pro-editor, a special-effects-option, a DOF calculator, an astrological-application, an USB-Espresso-machine . . :D:cool:

Specialised tasks need specialized applications.

Handling "really big" HDR-pano is easy: use an HDR-app FIRST and THEN stitch the mapped images (i´m suggesting that for years now . . :D)

The time it takes a stitcher to stitch and to edit the stitch for correct CPs using 8 layers of bracketing takes much more effort than to HDR/tonemap the sets first and stitch them as usual.

best, Klaus

Klaus, the status quo is well known.
I also do use the bracketing with external programms first and stitch than the one fused/tonemapped layer.

But. Kolor did decide to add the functionality of layers and the bracketing feature. So why not making existing options better?
And Destiny did not demand/suggest to add 500 new features into autopano. She did suggest to create a dedicated HDR application detached from autopano.
So when using existing photomatix, oloneo, enfuse is ok, than also asking for such a Software coming from kolor - maybe with more Focus on Panoramas...


Liebe Gruesse,
Georg

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Last edited by gkaefer on Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:37 pm 
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gkaefer wrote:
klausesser wrote:
gkaefer wrote:
a Pixel identical stitch for bracketed layers based on a identical CP Point-Matrix may work, but maybe not. if you in extremm use a -8EV layer many parts are dark I guess. when the CP-Point Matrix from the 0EV layer is applied, mybe it cant work, what should be stitched if nothing/no pattern can be seen anymore in the darkness...

Agree. You´d definitely need an xml. Many users are over-challenged to use the xml for only ONE layer . . .

gkaefer wrote:
Destinys idea would be cool. a dedicated HDR application from kolor which is spezialized in handling really big panofiles and giving the enduser HDR Settings Options like photomatix, oloeno and others...

Why not adding a movie-editor, a post-pro-editor, a special-effects-option, a DOF calculator, an astrological-application, an USB-Espresso-machine . . :D:cool:

Specialised tasks need specialized applications.

Handling "really big" HDR-pano is easy: use an HDR-app FIRST and THEN stitch the mapped images (i´m suggesting that for years now . . :D)

The time it takes a stitcher to stitch and to edit the stitch for correct CPs using 8 layers of bracketing takes much more effort than to HDR/tonemap the sets first and stitch them as usual.

best, Klaus

Klaus, the status quo is well known.
I also do use the bracketing with external programms first and stitch than the one fused/tonemapped layer.

But. Kolor did decide to add the functionality of layers and the bracketing feature. So why not making existing options better?
And Destiny did not demand/suggest to add 500 new features into autopano. She did suggest to create a dedicated HDR application detached from autopano.
So when using existing photomatix, oloneo, enfuse is ok, than also asking for such a Software coming from kolor - maybe with more Focus on Panoramas...


Liebe Gruesse,
Georg

Hi Georg!

I understand this demand. But quite a time ago this theme was already on the agenda - and Kolor claimed not to do so, for several reasons.
I accept that.
I´d definitely prefer to have a very good working stitcher-application which concentrates on perfect stitching intstead of having an allrounder which does
dozens of things - but not one of them consequently.
A stitcher is there for stitching images the best way it can be done.
A HDR-application is there to process stacks of images to HDR and to tone-map them.

Take the RAW-decoding for example: most stitchers have an embedded RAW-decoder. But when you use a dedicated RAW-application like PhaseOne for example you will find that it definitely has an edge compared to any embedded solution.

Fusioning in Photomatix definitely has an edge over the somewhat funny fusion-thing in APG. Not to speak of HDR . . .

Depending on what you do and what you expect to achieve that might make a difference between YOUR work and the work of somebody else.

best, Klaus

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Last edited by klausesser on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:07 am 
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klausesser wrote:
Hi Georg!

I understand this demand. But quite a time ago this theme was already on the agenda - and Kolor claimed not to do so, for several reasons.
I accept that.
I´d definitely prefer to have a very good working stitcher-application which concentrates on perfect stitching intstead of having an allrounder which does
dozens of things - but not one of them consequently.
A stitcher is there for stitching images the best way it can be done.
A HDR-application is there to process stacks of images to HDR and to tone-map them.

Take the RAW-decoding for example: most stitchers have an embedded RAW-decoder. But when you use a dedicated RAW-application like PhaseOne for example you will find that it definitely has an edge compared to any embedded solution.

Fusioning in Photomatix definitely has an edge over the somewhat funny fusion-thing in APG. Not to speak of HDR . . .

Depending on what you do and what you expect to achieve that might make a difference between YOUR work and the work of somebody else.

best, Klaus

nothing else was suggested:
gkaefer wrote:
(...) suggest to create a dedicated HDR application detached from autopano (...)

lg
Georg

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Last edited by gkaefer on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:52 am 
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gkaefer wrote:
I see pros for both suggestions. what is better? hm. and isnt such Option available? I mean the saving as template Option and than if loading the Images of next EV layer you can load/apply the saved template...

I'm quite keen to try this approach and I have saved one of the layers of a stacked pano as a named template (although it didn't ask me for a folder spec to put it in)

I have looked in APG and in the wiki doc and I just can't see where you reload this template to use for stitching other pano layers - has anyone got this info please ?

best
Martin


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:33 pm 
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gkaefer wrote:
nothing else was suggested:
gkaefer wrote:
(...) suggest to create a dedicated HDR application detached from autopano (...)

lg
Georg

Don´t you think they´re busy enough developing PTP2 and perfectioning the tools which are already implemented in APG?
I can only speak for myself - but that´s what i definitely would prefer.

I´m sure they have reasons not to have already integrated full HDR capabilities into APG. Ask them!

best, Klaus

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Last edited by klausesser on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:58 pm 
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Hi Klaus,

yep. I fully agree.
I dont wanna stop finishing ptp2 in favour of any new starting idea...
... but should this "future" Forum be closed until ptp2 is out? :cool:
Georg

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Last edited by gkaefer on Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:00 pm 
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marzipano wrote:
gkaefer wrote:
I see pros for both suggestions. what is better? hm. and isnt such Option available? I mean the saving as template Option and than if loading the Images of next EV layer you can load/apply the saved template...

I'm quite keen to try this approach and I have saved one of the layers of a stacked pano as a named template (although it didn't ask me for a folder spec to put it in)

I have looked in APG and in the wiki doc and I just can't see where you reload this template to use for stitching other pano layers - has anyone got this info please ?

best
Martin

Hi Martin,

;) yes docu... here the miracle:

you dont have to care about saving Location. apg will find it automatically. the trick is to find it in apg, see my screenshot.... :cool:
Georg



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:35 pm 
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gkaefer wrote:
marzipano wrote:
gkaefer wrote:
I see pros for both suggestions. what is better? hm. and isnt such Option available? I mean the saving as template Option and than if loading the Images of next EV layer you can load/apply the saved template...

I'm quite keen to try this approach and I have saved one of the layers of a stacked pano as a named template (although it didn't ask me for a folder spec to put it in)

I have looked in APG and in the wiki doc and I just can't see where you reload this template to use for stitching other pano layers - has anyone got this info please ?

best
Martin

Hi Martin,

;) yes docu... here the miracle:

you dont have to care about saving Location. apg will find it automatically. the trick is to find it in apg, see my screenshot.... :cool:
Georg

Thanks Georg
I think I may have spent a long time looking for it without your help !

best
Martin


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:49 pm 
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Klaus, I am sure if the Kolor team were not interested in reading members future request, they would have closed their future request forum.. You seem to have taken it upon yourself to be the Future Request Monitor and speaking for the Kolor team... I suggest you allow all members to be allowed to voice their own future request, without fear of being monitored, criticised or vetted by you... :rolleyes:

You also seemed to have taken my future request and broadened it, I feel I was quite specific in my request with HDR/LDR...

Destiny...

klausesser wrote:
gkaefer wrote:
nothing else was suggested:
gkaefer wrote:
(...) suggest to create a dedicated HDR application detached from autopano (...)

lg
Georg

Don´t you think they´re busy enough developing PTP2 and perfectioning the tools which are already implemented in APG?
I can only speak for myself - but that´s what i definitely would prefer.

I´m sure they have reasons not to have already integrated full HDR capabilities into APG. Ask them!

best, Klaus

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:12 am 
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It would be handy to be able to in some way create exposure layers one at a time, and then stitch them together when they're done. I don't know much about the advantages and disadvantages of doing this all in the same software, but doing one layer at a time means that resuming failed tasks or scheduling processing around other work would be far easier.
At the moment mathist's suggestion of unchecking one layer at a time seems to be a very good one, and one that I'll try, but an automated approach would also be great!


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:30 am 
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Destiny wrote:
Klaus, I am sure if the Kolor team were not interested in reading members future request, they would have closed their future request forum.. You seem to have taken it upon yourself to be the Future Request Monitor and speaking for the Kolor team... I suggest you allow all members to be allowed to voice their own future request, without fear of being monitored, criticised or vetted by you... :rolleyes:

Destiny - don´t you think i have the right to tell my opinion about themes which rise here and to discuss questions and suggestions?

If you "fear" of "being monitored", "critizisised" or "vetted" each time somebody expresses his thoughts about a theme and what he says doesn´t reflect your own thoughts you should start to think about the meaning of communication.

Please stop playing the teacher again here - we´re adult people. Thank you.

Klaus

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:03 am 
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:rolleyes:

Well, thats not worth responding to....

Destiny...

klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:
Klaus, I am sure if the Kolor team were not interested in reading members future request, they would have closed their future request forum.. You seem to have taken it upon yourself to be the Future Request Monitor and speaking for the Kolor team... I suggest you allow all members to be allowed to voice their own future request, without fear of being monitored, criticised or vetted by you... :rolleyes:

Destiny - don´t you think i have the right to tell my opinion about themes which rise here and to discuss questions and suggestions?

If you "fear" of "being monitored", "critizisised" or "vetted" each time somebody expresses his thoughts about a theme and what he says doesn´t reflect your own thoughts you should start to think about the meaning of communication.

Please stop playing the teacher again here - we´re adult people. Thank you.

Klaus

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Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:15 am 
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Would be nice if we could render all stacks individually. Would not be nice if HDR support was removed - AP's tone mapping is realistic and nice. Only missing feature is suppression of ghosts within a single stack (e.g. ripples on water, swaying leaves).


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:30 pm 
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DrSlony wrote:
Only missing feature is suppression of ghosts within a single stack (e.g. ripples on water, swaying leaves).

Right!

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:15 pm 
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DrSlony wrote:
Would be nice if we could render all stacks individually. Would not be nice if HDR support was removed - AP's tone mapping is realistic and nice. Only missing feature is suppression of ghosts within a single stack (e.g. ripples on water, swaying leaves).

I see anti-ghosting and image alignment as two separate functions and at the individual stack level APG needs both added. Otherwise I'm with you 100%


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