automatic horizon - additional option to manually define a horizon  

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bradtem
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by bradtem » Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:24 pm

Actually, while I would like a manual Horizon tool to fix when APP is not maping it right, I even more want an option to say "I shot this on a tripod and/or pano head." What this means is APP would strongly resist any solution where the images are not all tilted the same relative to one another. With heavy lenses, the pano heads do bend so they are not always straight up and down but they are always the same tilt in their circle, and APP should strongly reject CPs which imply anything otherwise. I suppose a 2nd checkbox to say "this particular image the camera got bumped or re-leveled" to turn that off would be handy but the first feature is what I want. I hate shooting on a pano head and having APP present this warped distortion as that happens a lot.

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klausesser
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by klausesser » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:28 pm

bradtem wrote:Actually, while I would like a manual Horizon tool to fix when APP is not maping it right,

Could you be a bit more specific?

bradtem wrote:I even more want an option to say "I shot this on a tripod and/or pano head." What this means is APP would strongly resist any solution where the images are not all tilted the same relative to one another.

???

bradtem wrote:With heavy lenses, the pano heads do bend so they are not always straight up and down but they are always the same tilt in their circle, and APP should strongly reject CPs which imply anything otherwise.

1) a good head doesn´t "bend" with a heavy lens. All heads have imits - even the most expensive ones. So if you want to use a heavy lens: choose a suitable head. It should be able to move a payload of 8-10Kg easily and without issues.You wouldn´t expect to win the Rally Monte Carlo on a bicycle, would you . . .
2) there´s "multiple viewpoints" for the use with handheld-shot panos and when the head wasn´t set correctly or had somre issue with stability.
3) there the import for xml files in which you can already set what you mentioned: "strictly use a defined position, don´t search for control points, don´t optimize".

bradtem wrote:I hate shooting on a pano head and having APP present this warped distortion as that happens a lot.

What the hell are you talking about?

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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bradtem
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by bradtem » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:44 am

I explained. I shoot a pano on a pano head. Images are generally evenly spaced -- often exactly evenly spaced though of course there can be minor error -- and all have the same rotation. As I said, even strong heads like the Nodal Ninja I use will bend slightly so they are not completely vertical when they have a heavy load on them, but this is not a problem it just drops a small amount of vertical resolution. However, the point is that all the pictures are at the same angle, and it's close to 90. The tripod is generally level as well (with bubble level) but as we know even bubble level will show some slight tilt in a big pano.

Anyway, in spite of this, APP sometimes screws is up because it is not realizing that the images are regular, and thinks they might have more arbitrary and varying roll or pitch when the ones in a row are all the same. It does this because SIFT sometimes will match up on items displaced by parallax -- yes it happens even on a pano head -- or because they moved. In particular if it happens to get clouds or people it will match and get confused.

And this is the problem. Yes they feature matching makes it look like the image has a different roll, for example. I want to tell it, NO, it never does. If you find a match that makes you look for a solution that implies a different roll (or different focal length etc.) that match is probably wrong, so discard or downrate those CPs.

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klausesser
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by klausesser » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:16 pm

bradtem wrote:. . . it just drops a small amount of vertical resolution.

"drop vertical resolution"? How would it?

bradtem wrote:The tripod is generally level as well (with bubble level) but as we know even bubble level will show some slight tilt in a big pano.

Right - that´s obvious. But not a problem at all.

bradtem wrote:Anyway, in spite of this, APP sometimes screws is up because it is not realizing that the images are regular, and thinks they might have more arbitrary and varying roll or pitch when the ones in a row are all the same.

Wrong.

bradtem wrote:It does this because SIFT sometimes will match up on items displaced by parallax -- yes it happens even on a pano head -- or because they moved. In particular if it happens to get clouds or people it will match and get confused.

Of course there´s always a problem when objects - like clouds or people - move. That´s in the nature of stitching . . . :cool: But you can very well work around that. That´s in the nature of stitching . . . :cool:

bradtem wrote:And this is the problem. Yes they feature matching makes it look like the image has a different roll, for example.

No problem at all. The optimization cam handle that very good.

bradtem wrote:I want to tell it, NO, it never does. If you find a match that makes you look for a solution that implies a different roll (or different focal length etc.) that match is probably wrong, so discard or downrate those CPs.

Look: stitching means that the stitcher manipulates the size/orientation of images in a way they can be stitched. All stitchers do that and without that you can´t stitch images.

The only way to avoid it is the use of a scanner-camera like the Spheron, Seitz Roundshot and one or two others. If you pay around 50000.-€ for a Spheron you´ll be even able to make precise measurements in the panorama.
That´s possible because they A) don´t stitch but scan the whole image as one piece and b) they can shoot stereo from zwo viewpoints around 10cm apart from each other:
http://www.spheron.com/en/spheron-cgi/products/3d-measurement.html

When you stitch images for generating a panorama the images always get manipulated in size and orientation - to a very low amount - for being matched. That´s in the nature of stitching.

APG does an extremely well job with irregulary shot images - the best way is to use xml positioning when you deal with uniform blue skies, large white walls or comparable situations.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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[bo]
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by [bo] » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:27 pm

Still, horizon is often a problem* and I'd love to get the bezier-curve horizon ajustment tool we've been talking about since forever. I doubt it's as easy to code as suggested in this and other threads, but I retain hope that some day we'll get a similar, useful horizon tool. Right now, even after drawing 10-15 verticals on a simple 2x10 handheld panorama, I cannot get a straight horizon every time. I usually struggle with dragging parts of the pano in the editor, but that's far from precise.

So I do think a proper solution should be developed... some time in the future :D

*Yes, believe it or not, most people do not possess the perfect equipment, are not in the perfect conditions, or don't have perfect shooting skills. In fact, I'd be quite surprised if we have more than a just a handful of machine-perfect photographers like Klaus on our forums.
Some of my panoramas, posted in the Autopano Pro flickr group.

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klausesser
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by klausesser » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:49 pm

'[bo wrote:']Right now, even after drawing 10-15 verticals on a simple 2x10 handheld panorama, I cannot get a straight horizon every time. I usually struggle with dragging parts of the pano in the editor, but that's far from precise.

I can´t see how that should be possible beyond what the vertical line tool´s features can achieve anyway. I guess the two or three of the leading stitching applications would have already realized it.
So maybe programming bezier-curve functions into APG is a bit too heavy for just straighten a horizon sometimes and might be not very high on the list. If it´s possible at all. I wonder what the Kolor-team says . .

To make it clear: even i - as a machine-perfect man which i am :D - shoot by hand quite often. And so i need to straighten horizons quite often. I use the vert.line tool - and if there still remain unacceptable unevenness (wich i never had): i can use Photoshop.
I´m sure there is not one uneven part in a horizont somewhere in the world :cool: which can´t be done by using the "warp" tool in Photoshop as the ultima ratio . . (here you have beziers or splines en masse ;)).

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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