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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:07 pm 
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sometimes its inpossible to get the pano alligned on horizon very well.
and because of not using planar projection the existing horizon tool is disabled.

so like shown in my screenshot I would like to have a tool where I can set as many markerpoints I think I need. These marker points get connected with a line and together it shows my currently not alligned horzon. clicking than on the existing button "Automatic Horizon" than bends the pieces into shape.

Liebe Gruesse,
Georg



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:17 pm 
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I searched the forum for "horizon" and have hundreds of hits.
The oldest request for a better tool for straightening the horizon is from 2005. That is seven years ago !
http://www.kolor.com/forum/p200-2005-12-26-06-02-08#p200
I have myself written in some , like this
http://www.kolor.com/forum/p98458-2012-04-26-09-10-47#p98458

Maybe Kolor should do something about it, now.

leifs

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:36 pm 
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gkaefer wrote:
sometimes its inpossible to get the pano alligned on horizon very well.

Hi Georg,
yep, me too. A manual horizon tool like you describe wold be a great tool. There is a vertical line tool, but a similar horizontal line tool is missing.

greetings to Salzburg
Chris

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:00 pm 
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Location: Paaaaaaris !
sorry for the French text, but i can't explain in english :

Je profite de ce post pour préciser une petit chose sur l'horizon... car j'ai eu recemment des panos à  faire avec pas mal de ces pb.

Sur le cas de panos fait sans pied, et donc sans tete pano, il faut que les photos soient recollées avec des points de contrôles qui ne soient pas sur le premier plan, sinon, c'est l'horizon KO assuré !!! Plus les points de contrôle sont situés sur des objets loin sur l'horizon, plus celui ci sera parfait lors de l'assemblage final (au risque bien sur d'avoir des gros pb de parallax au premier plan, mais bon, on peut pas tout avoir non plus... forcement, à  main levé !!!)

autopano a tendance à  placer des série de points de contrôle en vertical, alors que le mieux, pour les pb d'horizon, c'est de les placer en horizontale, et forcement le plus près de l'horizon (donc pas en bas de la photo en général)...

Une petit option, dans les regles de détection, du genre "améliorer l'horizon", qui forcerait les points de controle sur le haut de la photo, et en horizontale, plutôt qu'en vertical, ferait que cela améliorerait pas mal la construction du pano...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:17 pm 
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taf wrote:
sorry for the French text, but i can't explain in english :

Je profite de ce post pour préciser une petit chose sur l'horizon... car j'ai eu recemment des panos à  faire avec pas mal de ces pb.

Sur le cas de panos fait sans pied, et donc sans tete pano, il faut que les photos soient recollées avec des points de contrôles qui ne soient pas sur le premier plan, sinon, c'est l'horizon KO assuré !!! Plus les points de contrôle sont situés sur des objets loin sur l'horizon, plus celui ci sera parfait lors de l'assemblage final (au risque bien sur d'avoir des gros pb de parallax au premier plan, mais bon, on peut pas tout avoir non plus... forcement, à  main levé !!!)

autopano a tendance à  placer des série de points de contrôle en vertical, alors que le mieux, pour les pb d'horizon, c'est de les placer en horizontale, et forcement le plus près de l'horizon (donc pas en bas de la photo en général)...

Une petit option, dans les regles de détection, du genre "améliorer l'horizon", qui forcerait les points de controle sur le haut de la photo, et en horizontale, plutôt qu'en vertical, ferait que cela améliorerait pas mal la construction du pano...

according to google translator:

Quote:
I take this post to clarify one small thing on the horizon ... because I recently had to make panos with a lot of these points.

The case of panos done without foot, and therefore no pano head, must be glued together with photos of control points that are not in the foreground, otherwise it is the horizon KO guaranteed! More control points are located on far objects on the horizon, the more perfect will be in the final assembly (at the risk of having very large parallax bp in the foreground, but hey, we can not just have not ... necessarily, hand raised!)

autopano tends to place the set of control points in vertical, while the better for the horizon bp is to be placed horizontally, and obviously the more close to the horizon (not the bottom of the general picture) ...

A small option in the detection rules, such as "improve the horizon," which would force checkpoints on top of the photo, and horizontal, rather than vertical, it would improve a lot construction the pano ...

sound logic, but I think its not enough, because not all cases are covered. Like my example above, its the current mars mission source images I used. here all is on foreground, no single CP in Sky (and no in water ;-) ), all is read/brown/sand/stone all different but allways the same ;-) . If I only use images covering the first and second row from top, all is alligned like a chess board row. If I add images from further rows and I've no xml file and I've not all images of that rows than autopano tends to fail automatically alligning it correctly. in my example above the 600m high "mountain" on mars is flat like in Dutch the highest hill with 70m(?)...

Georg

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Last edited by gkaefer on Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:02 pm 
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Artisan S. wrote:
Naah, George....Mars has Olympus Mons.....about 26 Km high if memory serves....and the Netherlands has in fact not one but two highest points, Mount Scenery wich is 877 meters high (and located on the Caraïbian island of Saba which is has the same legal status as any town in Holland now) and the Vaalser Berg which is 323 meters high and on mainland the Netherlands....in fact about 70 km south of where I'm living.

Have you tried the multiple vertical technique btw.....?

Greets, Ed.

yes. in whichever combination - it allways destroied the original alignment.
Some sort of tool that tells autopano this area is tabu, its perfect - dont touch would help. and the misaligned area some sort of tool I can tell to alligne according to manual made horizon...
Georg

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:04 pm 
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more sugestions 6 years ago (!!!!!!)
http://www.kolor.com/forum/p4771-2006-10-24-15-38-41#p4771

why do Kolor make neutralhazer and kolor eyes and give a damn to existing users cry for a horizon-tool ?

leifs

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:35 am 
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really - i don´t understand that demand for a "automatic horizon"! An "automatic horizon" is impossible - there are too many ways to do a faulty shooting.
My suggestion: just use your camera/head levelled and you for sure get a straight horizon. Period.

Beside of that: there already is a fine working horizon-tool in Autopano for years . . . . .

IF this tool doesn´t get you a straight horizon there´s something basically wrong in the shoot - and that´s not the stitcher . . . :cool:

In more than 6 years of using Autopano now i !never! had any problem to get a horizon straight. When there was something not correctly levelled it was MY fault.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:48 am 
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In this pano the x-rotation axis wasn´t horizontal but 45°. So the equirectangular image was very curved.
Using the vertical-lines tool for horizontal correction resulted in this: http://360impressions.de/Tower/

So don´t tell me there´s no horizontal correction in AP . . . :rolleyes::cool:

I can look for more examples if you like . . .

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:53 am 
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Sorry, i forgot to mention - The very basic thing you should always do for getting horizons straight: shoot a symmetrical pattern!! If you do you´ll get everything straight.
Shooting symmetrical often results in many redundant pictures - but you need them for stitching symmetrical. That´s quite obvious - but sometimes forgotten . . :cool:

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 12:51 pm 
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Artisan S. wrote:
And Klaus is (as sometimes is verry much the case) right.....I haven't had problems I could not solve.....but NASA should send Klaus to Mars :) (and back again) instead of a robot with the intelligence of a dungbeatle....this is what Nasa made of it:

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/681008main_pia16101-20000px.jpg

So maybe they could send their next probe to Klaus in order for him to teach it, patiently the fine art of panorama shooting.....

Greets, Ed.

???

Klaus

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:44 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
Using the vertical-lines tool for horizontal correction resulted in this: http://360impressions.de/Tower/
So don´t tell me there´s no horizontal correction in AP . . . :rolleyes::cool:
I can look for more examples if you like . . .
best, Klaus

In this type of horizon (inland, hills and mountains, buildings close to the horizon) there is no problem. Need no more examples.
The problem is for example when there is a line-horizon and there are water below and sky above: no CP's
It always result in a banana-shape horizon, and never a bump upwards.
(and yes: I use the XML's from the VRdrive2)

leifs



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:21 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
really - i don´t understand that demand for a "automatic horizon"! An "automatic horizon" is impossible - there are too many ways to do a faulty shooting.
My suggestion: just use your camera/head levelled and you for sure get a straight horizon. Period.

Beside of that: there already is a fine working horizon-tool in Autopano for years . . . . .

IF this tool doesn´t get you a straight horizon there´s something basically wrong in the shoot - and that´s not the stitcher . . . :cool:

In more than 6 years of using Autopano now i !never! had any problem to get a horizon straight. When there was something not correctly levelled it was MY fault.

best, Klaus

wrong. simply wrong.

1. I do not demand an option "automatic horizon"
1a. we have that option. and it does fail in some examples in major panos it works great.
2. I do demand an "additional option to manually define the horizon" - as described above.
3. If I take the mars images. the first row is complete 360". using these images without xml import I get a chess board like row. correct alligned. the hwoever high hill is displayed as hill.
4. If I add the images of second row and further rows (all not complete rows and more or less images are missing) than autopano does align the horizon (however rules following).
5. but in special on left side of my screenshot this part gets downwards angled.

so I just wish to have a tool where I can draw a line into the pano (with markers or handmade or hwoever) and than pressing whichever button (why not existing one "automatic horizon") that this drawn line gets straightened and in consequence the rest of the pano accordingly adopted.

Georg

PS: other software can align such "special" cases perfectly. the "hill" in original looks like in the image I found on NASA homepage:
source: http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl/images/PIA16101_malin01colorbalancedMtSharp-br2.jpg



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Artisan S. wrote:
I admit that is a problem indeed.....no CP's is no guidance.....and for those cases a horizon tool would be nice.....but I wonder, wouldn't there be controlpoints in the coulds and since these tend to move couldn't they be the culprit?

Greets, Ed.

in my example I've perfect set of CPs, perfect overlapping, RMS without any manual modification of CPs of 1.35 and still you've no influence to create a pano with a horizon which reflects the reality.
there is a vertical tool. works perfect. just the same for horizontal would do the same for my "special" case and also for leifs pano category. This horizontal tool exists but not for spherical projection.
so it must not be something totally new its also ok to enhance the existing tool.

Georg

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Have you tried adjusting the center point of the image?

I sometimes get this on long panos, even using a tripod but a bit of adjustment usually gets ridof mostt of the curvature.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:17 pm 
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gkaefer wrote:
This horizontal tool exists but not for spherical projection.

Hey Georg!

You mean the dedicated horizontal line tool which works on planar projection - that´s NOT what i mean :cool:

Vertical line tool works very fine on spheres of course - and it works also on horizons in spheres - i use it all the time when i can´t level the camera correctly. Use the yellow dotted line in a way it "follows" the curved horizon.
Maybe you have to draw lots of vertical lines to achieve connected yellow lines from one end of the picture to the other. If you didn´t do a faulty shooting they´ll straighten your horizon fine.

I use this feature very, very often - can´t always level the camera and so i have a curved horizon quite often. Like said: as long as you didn´t make failures in the shooting it works very effectively.

Problems can rise when you use lenses featuring non-linear- or off-center-distortions . . . Leif´s issues irritate me a lot - i don´t know such issues from my cameras and lenses . . . and from the stitcher ;)

I can only report my experiences - and they show me a very effective tool for straightening horizons - on Earth, not on Mars to be honest :cool: - given i didn´t fail doing my shots properly.

There is a wide variety of possible failures in shooting panoramas - human-wise or technical-wise (equipment usually). There are combinations of lenses and cameras which are hard to edit perfectly and some can´t be edited perfectly at all.

Shooting a geometrical pattern there´s aboutely no reason for NOT getting horizons straightened.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 3:30 pm 
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leifs wrote:
In this type of horizon (inland, hills and mountains, buildings close to the horizon) there is no problem. Need no more examples.
The problem is for example when there is a line-horizon and there are water below and sky above: no CP's
It always result in a banana-shape horizon, and never a bump upwards.
(and yes: I use the XML's from the VRdrive2)

leifs

Hey Leifs!

Using XML you don´t need CPs on water and so on at first hand - that´s why we use XML. So if you don´t have a correct horizon there must be something incorrect in your shooting, sorry. The stitcher only comes in when you optimize the stitch. But here you have plenty of features to avoid the need of CPs in critical areas resp. set CPs manually and so avoid them being set faulty by any automatics.

When sky meets water you have plenty of mirroring and very familiar colors - setting CPs automatically must fail here most of the time. Don´t blame it to the stitcher.
Some stitchers might handle such cases better than others - look for the one which does it best and use it. Other stitchers may handle different features better - so it´s wise
to use the matching stitcher to a job. I use APG 90% of the time - and i use PTGui on some rare occasions.

There´s no tool in the world that does it all in the same quality. No lens, no camera, no head and so on. And no photographer - we all are specialized in the one or the other way.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:56 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
there must be something incorrect in your shooting, sorry.

incorrect. well. I use a telescopic pole, handheld, with a level. maybe that's incorrect, but that's the way I do it outback.
I guess I know what "correct shooting" is, and I do it indoors and in the city.

klausesser wrote:
The stitcher only comes in when you optimize the stitch.

Have you shot a 90 images sphere, placed the images according to the XML and rendered it without optimizing ?
I've tried it, using "correct shooting" technique, and the XML from the VRdrive2.
Verdict: the result is ugly. the pano has to be optimized. that's when the horizon-problem appears. I correct it, optimize and the problem just appear another place on the horizon. Like chasing rabbits.

For the past seven years there has been a continuous, humble request for a new tool/better tool to manually help APG to produce a straight horizon (without steps). The automatic horizon tool is no option for theese cases, it just don't work.
There is a horizontal line tool in APG, but it's only available in planar projection! No help for cylinders and spheres.

leifs

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a a gruntpuddock wrote:
Have you tried adjusting the center point of the image?
I sometimes get this on long panos, even using a tripod but a bit of adjustment usually gets ridof mostt of the curvature.

thanks for reminding me about this option. I have tried it on my last sphere and it did the trick :)
I've tried before in other cases without success, so it does not remove the need for a new/better tool for horizon-problems.

leifs



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:01 am 
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leifs wrote:
klausesser wrote:
The stitcher only comes in when you optimize the stitch.

Have you shot a 90 images sphere, placed the images according to the XML and rendered it without optimizing ?
I've tried it, using "correct shooting" technique, and the XML from the VRdrive2.

I usually use to shoot 214 image-spheres and de-activate optimizing in the PapyWizard import-module for my Panoneed head. Works great. After having the pics imported without automatic optimizing i start optimizing manually with unlinking and hardlinking again. Here you have several strategies to optimize in a way which NOT distorts your horizon.

leifs wrote:
Verdict: the result is ugly. the pano has to be optimized.

Yes - of course. Depends on HOW you do it . . :cool:

leifs wrote:
that's when the horizon-problem appears. I correct it, optimize and the problem just appear another place on the horizon. Like chasing rabbits.

Yes - i know this problem very well. That´s why i linked the litte tutorial Alexandre made on my "opera" case.

leifs wrote:
For the past seven years there has been a continuous, humble request for a new tool/better tool to manually help APG to produce a straight horizon (without steps). The automatic horizon tool is no option for theese cases, it just don't work.
There is a horizontal line tool in APG, but it's only available in planar projection! No help for cylinders and spheres.

leifs

There already is a vertical/horizontal tool which does fine with spheres indeed . . . . ;):cool: Just draw many vertical lines and connect their horizontal yellow dottet lines along the bent horizon.
Then hit "enter" and most likely the horizon will be straightened. It NEVER failed for me - even with extremely bent horizons. Be aware to need many verticals to build connected horizontal lines along over the whole image. It took me about 30 verticals one time o conect them along the bent horizon - but it was perfectly straightened.

But as i said before: often the problem results from non-symmetrical shooting.

best, Klaus

PS: forgot - drawing the vertical lines quite long results in longer horizontal lines . . :cool:

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klausesser wrote:
There already is a vertical/horizontal tool which does fine with spheres indeed . . . . ;):cool:

I have tried it, I really wanted it to work, but it didn't. It solves a problem one place and create steps another place on the horizon.
It's like a computer game from last century, chasing rabbits.

leifs

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:27 am 
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leifs wrote:
It solves a problem one place and create steps another place on the horizon.

Hey Leif!

I never experienced that. If it produces *steps* there must be something profoundly wrong. The tool "bends" - but never produced *steps* for me.

However: what do you expect a tool that works for you should look like? I don´t have the remotest imagination what a new horizont-tool should do better than the existing tools!?

In my eyes the problem results from other issues.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:53 pm 
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Klaus,

Read this post for what this horizon tool would look like.

Alexandre himself said that it would be easy to do. This was 3 or 4 years ago... and nothing ever happened.

Bo

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:22 pm 
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Bmachine wrote:
Klaus,

Read this post for what this horizon tool would look like.

Alexandre himself said that it would be easy to do. This was 3 or 4 years ago... and nothing ever happened.

Bo

;):cool:

best, Klaus

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Darn. I just checked this thread and realize that the link I was trying to insert in my post of Sept 22 did not show up.

So here is the idea for a horizon straightening tool that has been discussed for a long time:

http://www.kolor.com/forum/t10313-an-easy-horizon-straightening-tool

This would be really useful for those of us who shoot panos out hiking in the wild without the possibility of carrying a tripod.

Bo

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iMac 27. OS 10.8.5. Aperture, APG, PS and Lightzone.
Nikon D600. Mostly handheld.


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