Support of "Retina" Macs  

Got some great idea or a feature request? Post it here and discuss it. The most requested concepts are usually implemented, as Autopano Pro / Giga is very community driven.
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Support of "Retina" Macs

by maloff » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:00 am

Hello

Are there any plans to support Macbook Pros w/ Mac OS X and "retina" displays?

Thanks

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by gkaefer » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:14 am

dont understand the question.
Why shouldnt they be supported already?
Georg

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by maloff » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:47 am

I am trying Autopano Giga 2.6 on a Macbook Pro (summer 2012) w/ "retina" display with Mac OS X

All the UI icons, all the UI texts and even previews of photos and panoramas are blurry because Autopano Giga now unaware of retina screen rendering process
Last edited by maloff on Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by mediavets » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:54 am

maloff wrote:retina screen rendering process

?????????????
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by gkaefer » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:22 am

maloff wrote:I am trying Autopano Giga 2.6 on a Macbook Pro (summer 2012) w/ "retina" display with Mac OS X

All the UI icons, all the UI texts and even previews of photos and panoramas are blurry because Autopano Giga now unaware of retina screen rendering process

a retina display for MacBook Pro (3rd generation, 2012) does display 220 pixel per inch and has a resolution of 2880à—1800
(according to wiki page)

well it will take some time until worldwide all software companies will adjust their software. The problem is not autopano generic one:
http://www.hongkiat.com/blog/mbp-retina-blurry-text/

Georg

PS: stupid question: using Vector graphics for icons should solve the problem forever - or am I on a dead end?
Last edited by gkaefer on Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:28 pm

gkaefer wrote:PS: stupid question: using Vector graphics for icons should solve the problem forever - or am I on a dead end?

Right!

best, Klaus
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by maloff » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:18 pm

gkaefer wrote:
maloff wrote:I am trying Autopano Giga 2.6 on a Macbook Pro (summer 2012) w/ "retina" display with Mac OS X

All the UI icons, all the UI texts and even previews of photos and panoramas are blurry because Autopano Giga now unaware of retina screen rendering process

a retina display for MacBook Pro (3rd generation, 2012) does display 220 pixel per inch and has a resolution of 2880à—1800
(according to wiki page)

well it will take some time until worldwide all software companies will adjust their software. The problem is not autopano generic one:
http://www.hongkiat.com/blog/mbp-retina-blurry-text/

Georg

PS: stupid question: using Vector graphics for icons should solve the problem forever - or am I on a dead end?

Yes, Apple retina displays have x4 DPI, comparing to standard displays

And correct, only Apple apps and some small apps are retina-ready

1) About icons: I am not an Apple developer, but generally speaking it should. But it may be waaaay simpler to just provide a x2 version of all icons, as Apple SDK recommends

2) Actually _icons_ is not the biggest problem of APG w/ retina. Biggest problems are a) text appearance b) foto images themselve

a) if you use standard system procedures to output text directly to the application window, text should render in high quality automagically.
But currently it's not: it looks like APG first print to a normal resolution bitmap, and then output the normal res bitmap on a high res screen, effectively making all the text blurry

b) The same problem with previews of fotos and panoramas: they look blurry, because they scaled down to the standard DPI, not to DPIx4 of new Apple retina screens

If you have an Apple store nearby you could give APG a try and see yourself

And at the end I want to show everyone a Google's pic they posted to illustrate the appearance of a retina ready Chrome vs previous version:

Image
Last edited by maloff on Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by AlexandreJ » Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:57 pm

In fact, to be able to support retina on the mac book pro, we need to recreate all icons with x2 def in each size. Luckily, our master icon are in vector format. So, that's just an export that needs to be done again.
Issue 1440 opened

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by maloff » Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:08 pm

AlexandreJ wrote:In fact, to be able to support retina on the mac book pro, we need to recreate all icons with x2 def in each size. Luckily, our master icon are in vector format. So, that's just an export that needs to be done again.
Issue 1440 opened

Thanks, but that's not the main issue!

Main issue is displaing of photos and text

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by klausesser » Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:25 pm

Hi!

We face the issue that on the new iPad panoramas look rather bad compared to their look on desktops.
Here somd examples:
Desktop:
www.360impressions.de/Grecopan.

Picture 0) Screenshot from my MacBook Pro showing the panorame from our site in Safari.
Picture 1) the same panorama on iPad"3".
picture 2) the same panorama on iPad"3" inside the app of "Der Spiegel".

Resoultion of the panorama in all cases is 10000x5000px.

As we can see it´s looking rather badly on the iDevics compared to the desktop. My 17" MacBook has 1920x1200px. The iPad has 2048x1536px.

So that´s a bit irritating.

best, Klaus






Last edited by klausesser on Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:27 pm

Artisan S. wrote:No Klaus it isn't 10000 x 5000 in all cases.....if it was you wouldn't have a problem......what happens when a pano is made.....(at least KRPANO works that way) is that if you make a single tile normal pano (no multires) it generates three sets of pano's. One for the iPhone that takes the small display into account.....about 512x512 cubesides. Now that is a 2.5 x 6 about 16 Mpixel's to look at. Some for the iPad that creates 1024x 1024 cubesided and on for the pc that (default) creates 2200 x 2200 cubsides.....now the iPad 3 has a display with double the pixel/side count 2048 x 1536 or so.....no then each pixel in the pano has to be multiplied by six (in computer term extrapolated) and that look ugly as hell......what you would need is a sort of multires pano that caters for all specific devices. Now that goes for a website as well......all website of the world look like #### on a retina display......now that will change and people will adapt slowly but surelly. But it will mean more work from everybody and since customers expect us to solve our own problems mostly work that will not wind up on the bill.

Greets, Ed.

Ed - because i MADE the pano and because i UPLOADED the pano i KNOW it´s 10000x5000px . . . now, that´s getting a bit strange here . . :/ . .
believe me: i know about "what happens when a pano is made". Another story is the way Apple´s mobile-Safari engine handles the Retina resolution.
I looked at Hans Nyberg´s advice and we´re working on it.

Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:21 pm

Artisan S. wrote:No way I'm afraid.....the pano is 10000 x 5000 before you load it in PTP but when it comes out it's not it is rescaled and for each device it is rescaled differently.......

:D Ed: i-know-that . . . for years. But: that´s-not-the-point here. The point is how the Safari-engine in IOS5 handles tablet-faces of bigger sizes than 1024. Actually we´re testing some sizes and rendermodes.

If you like: wtch THIS on Retina: www.360impressions.de/GrecoTest

Please don´t tell me about stitching-errors - this is a non-edited 15000x7500px file just for testing . . .

Klaus
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by klausesser » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:23 pm

Artisan S. wrote:Ahah, that is a point.....well then why bother.....the point is, Safari in it's current state scales down larger images.....like one the repliers in this:

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/index.php/.../t-1346762.html

thead put it.....basically Safari is not supplying the retina experience when browsing......

Yes. That is, what it´s all about . .

Artisan S. wrote:and about your GrecoTest......no it isn't a 15000 x 7500 pixel file,

Don´t be childish, Ed. I imported a 15000x75000px equirectangular image into PTP. :rolleyes:

Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:26 am

Artisan S. wrote:Yeah I know but the size of that pano isn't represented in the endresult, now that is an important concept as Hans Nyberg also states on the KRPANO site.....

Of course. But please understand that we make our panos and tours for iPads AND desktop!!
We need a resolution which suits both platforms - and so we use equis in the apropriate size for desktop. Desktop is the main target - mobile devices still are less important . . . at the moment :cool:

Actually we´re testing to make seperate panos to be able to use an optimal size for the equi in relation to an optimal size for tablet-faces for avoiding too heavy scaling-conflicts.
Maybe that´s a workaround until things get better . . . :cool:

I agree to Hans: it´s try and error.

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:43 am

Artisan S. wrote:You should go to bed earlies Klaus :), but the problem is.......there is no relation to the size of the pano and the size of the tiles if you use the MAKE PANO (NORMAL) droplet.bat/app which I think you are using. If you don not have a iPhone license active it will transform your pano (even if it is 36000 x 18000 pixels) into a 2200 x 2200 cubeface panorama. If you have a iPhone license active it will transform your pano (even if it is 36000 x 18000 pixels) into a 2200 x 2200 cubeface panorama for web, and a 1024 x 1024 for iPad and a 512 x 512 for iPhone use.

If you use the MAKE PANO (TILED) droplet.bat/app it creates 1 layer of 361 tiles (19 x 19) per cubeface from 11.000 x 11.000 pixel cubfaces as .kro files all 613 x 613 pixels.

If you use the MAKE PANO (MULTIRES) droplet.bat/app it created several layers of 361 tiles and furthermore several other layers of smaller resolution tiles...

Now if you want to play with the filessizes of the tiles you need to edit either the normal.config or the tiled.config or the multiframe.config. now what Hans is trying to do is to achieve the perfect tilesize so iPad and desktops can use the same tiles of a multires but at a different resolution.....right.

http://krpano.com/forum/wbb/index.php?page=Thread&postID=39138&highlight=ipad+1024#post39138

and about the editing:

http://krpano.com/forum/wbb/index.php?page=Thread&postID=24993&highlight=config+ipad#post24993

But the above post is related to the normal.config (or vtour-normal which essentially works the same). So what Hans does is tune the files he gets out of his droplet via the editing of the config files......now changing the size of the input pano....well I don't know....not a path I would take I guess.

Greets, Ed.

Ed -

I´m used to go to bed when i´ve done my work.

But let me repeat: i KNOW about relationships between the size of the equi and the rest (i´m using AutopanoTour and then PanoTour Pro from the first day of their appearance in around 2007/8 and Autopano since 2006).
I also KNOW about using KRPano to a certain extend.
I of course have an iPhone license active.
I KNOW how to use the config files.
What i´m doing actually is the same what Hans does: i´m testing different sizes to find the perfect size of tablet-faces for Retina iPads/iPhones - which didn´t slowdown it too much by stressing the CPU and needing too much memory.

The size of the input equirectangular image is vital for the presentation on desktops - has no relation to presentation on mobile-devices OF COURSE!!!
You definitely don´t need continuing to repeat it.

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:28 pm

Artisan S. wrote:In that case I would go for 1414 since that seems to be the not using the scale down algorithm of the contraption and the scale up algoritm has the least amount of work to perform in order to upscale the .jpg to 2048 x 2048, unless of course it uses a bicubic tranform then a 1024 x 1024 tile will be the fastest.....since well 1024 x 2 = 2048......and every pixel can be bluntly turned into 4 (and the image will be fuzzy on the magnificent but for webuse somewhat superflous retina display).

Right - i´ll give 1414px a try and test it on Retina.

Artisan S. wrote:The size of the input equirectangular image is vital for the presentation on desktops - has no relation to presentation on mobile-devices OF COURSE!!!

But only if you go the multires route, in the MAKE PANO (Normal) droplet.bat the cubeface size is hardcoded into the normal.config file Klaus....more or less here:

maxsize=8000
maxcubesize=2200

Now these lines sort of indicate that using a recti bigger then 8000 x 4000 is useless in this case.....and that the tilesize/cubeface size even when you use a recti of 8000, is no larger then 2200.....

I ALWAYS go the "multires route" because - besides of "GrecoPan" - actually all of our panos/tours are at least 35000x15250px. So they look very fine on desktops: http://www.360impressions.de/ArchivSchadowplatz/
and good on usual iPads. But i´d like them to look better on Retinas than they look actually.

Panos like GrecoPan we will produce from October on. Guess we´ll use 20mm. I hope that the next version of PTP provides editable tabletfaces - i couldn´t find it actually and so i used KRPano.

Or i´ll have to do them for tablets i a tablet-version extra.

We´ll see.

Georg pointed out there is a new version of KRPano for download - but i already have it and made the GrecoTest using it.

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:38 pm

Artisan S. wrote:I ALWAYS go the "multires route" because - besides of "GrecoPan" - actually all of our panos/tours are at least 35000x15250px. So they look very fine on desktops: http://www.360impressions.de/ArchivSchadowplatz/ and good on usual iPads.

Shure you do but Grecopan wasn't a multires......

Of course "GrecoPan" is multires, Ed.

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:42 pm

Artisan S. wrote:See, first remark and what do you mean by editable tabletfaces.......if they are in an .swf you can't edit them, but I guess you know that...

OF COURSE i´m NOT talking about .swf . . . . . i´m talking about the faces for iPads, Ed.

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Aug 07, 2012 1:43 pm

1440 definitely isn´t better at all than 1400 btw. We´ll do some screenshots.

Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:26 pm

Artisan S. wrote:1440 > 1414....so it gets rescaled by the "I don't want to wast much memory" proces to 720 x 720 and then the **** gets upressed to 20948 x 2048 by the "I want to show of my useless retina display" proces....so yes, it shows up like ****....according to websources 1414 is about the limit....no need for screenshots there....your dealing with software Klaus, now a Frech Algerian software engineer said to me once (back in the 1990th):

"Ed unlike the universe software doesn't play dice".......so if Apple set the standards....well you can experiment till 4 o clock in the morning to your haerts content, but that does not change the limits set in the software.....

greets, Ed

Sorry - it was 1414 and not 1440 . . :cool:

And 1400 obviously looks better than 1414 and better than before when it was 1024 - comparing screenshots from an iPad (3).

Klaus

PS - maybe i should try 1399 now!? :D
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by klausesser » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:06 pm

Artisan S. wrote:Where exactly did you mention the fact that the cubeface you mention are exclusifly meant for iPad3 use.......? Should I have deduced that from this:

Ma post #10 in rthis thread:


"We face the issue that on the new iPad panoramas look rather bad compared to their look on desktops.
Here some examples:
Desktop:
[url=http://www.360impressions.de/Grecopan.\]www.360impressions.de/Grecopan."[/url]

Isn´t that clear enough? :cool:
Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:13 pm

Artisan S. wrote:And 1400 obviously looks better than 1414 and better than before when it was 1024 - comparing screenshots from an iPad (3).

No need for 1399 :)....I would go up and find the tipping point, 1401, 1402......1403.....my sources (Hans Nyberg) used the figure 1414.....but hey, it can be closer to 1410....that is a border analysis Klaus....I usually would do it like this.

From Hans's post:

I now use two sets for iPad,Android and iPhone. 1024 size iPhone and 1414 tablets. The iPhone images i set to iPhone and iPad. Tee 1414 goes to iPad+Retina and Android.


1414+1400 = 2814/2=1407....it that looks bad use 1407+1400=2807/2=1403 else use 1414+1407=2821/2 = 1409 and so on....

You´re right - a analyzed it on the iPad (3) and will do it again using 1414. I was irritated by a screenshot - have to look it on real.

Artisan S. wrote:BTW, why would a 2200 x 2200 single res not be enough for the El Greco tour in which all scaling posibilities are turned of in the html....are you catering for gigadisplays.......why?

best, Klaus

Greets, Ed

We want to provide deep zooming in all panos. No need for gaggapixels indoors - :cool: - for artwork . . but some deep zoom is much appriciated. That´s only possible in fine quality using multires

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:21 pm

Artisan S. wrote:Multiple Choices
The document name you requested (/Grecopan.") could not be found on this server. However, we found documents with names similar to the one you requested.

Available documents:

/GrecoPan (common basename)

Please consider informing the owner of the referring page about the broken link.
Apache/2.2.16 (Debian) Server at www.360impressions.de Port 80

No not really......since you want to make tours for desktop and mobile devices....now personally I don't own mobile devices (no point in having them clog up my pockets), but some people seem not to be able to live without them....I know.

Greets, Ed.

www.360impressions.de/GrecoPan works fine - no question.

Tablet devices is a very fast growing base. Creating multimdia-content without tablet-compatibility is nonsense these days! So it is with panoramas/tours. Actually i´m re-working our first tours (2008/9) to make them
compatible (and edit heaps of errors from the beginning with AutoPano, to be honest . . . :cool:)

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:50 pm

Artisan S. wrote:I maybe can get hold of an Ipad3 so I will have a go at it myself.....but there must be a tipping point somewhere.....1410 or 1414, I don't think that matter to much toi be honnest, it will be better then 1024......but 1440 will be reduced to 720, that I know for a fact...

About the deep zooming abilities indoors....well that depends.....

I did it again using 1414 - guess it´s the best way!

Zooming in on artwork is - i mentioned it - much appriciated indoors. Depends on the location and also on the artwork - and on the legals . . .
How deep the zooming should or must or be or is allowed to be is an individual decision in each case.

best, Klaus

I fyou like - look again at . . . /grecotest
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by klausesser » Tue Aug 07, 2012 5:43 pm

Artisan S. wrote:Well that's established then....tested it on Chrome, Firefox, IE and Safari....(in all three user agent modes) and they look great....

And yes especially on the legals and that depends on the artist and even the artwork and the occasion....

Greets, Ed.

Hey Ed!

Thank you for evaluating!

I don´t have the new iPad - but i´ll meet my 360impressions-partner tomorrow and we´ll check it on his.

At least in Germany we have somewhat funny legals relating to showing art on the web. Either you accept to pay for showing or you´re not allowed to show -
when the artist is a member of "Verwertungsgesellschaft Bild/Kunst" (kind of the more "famous" GEMA). Which most artits are. So even if they want you to show their art and even if they profit from you showing it on the web: you´d have to pay for having them on your site. Or your client. Museums and artexhibitions usually are allowed to make them public as long as the exhibition runs.
But: on the web it´s kind of forever . . . and so . .

Well - that´s how it is and we need to deal with it.

I guess it will not be this way forever . .

best, Klaus
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