8K/h265  

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:53 pm

Amidee wrote:Why are you even bothering telling me that you need lower shutter speeds for longer focal lengths? It doesn't matter at all with shooting 360 video with GoPros, dammit.


It´s vice-versa - of course! - and i wrote it.

Amidee wrote:Or was that an example? A rather wrong one! Let me explain why.


Yes - it was an example. Which explained why you need to use shorter exp. times whan you use higher reolutions.

Amidee wrote:I've shot 360 videos from tripods for big buck clients which could extremely benefit from the extra resolution in the near future. I know it's not the best resolution ever (I know well the detail vs resolution dilemma) because yeah, it's GoPros we're talking about.


Your question was: "is there any planned support for h265 and 8K output?". Remember?
So i answered to "8k output". What´s your problem??
But "8k output" need to have an input first, right? Right.

Amidee wrote:What about a big local tourism association that uses 360 video for marketing purposes? I'm shooting in full light, gorgeous weather, slow moving things and actors (but moving nonetheless) from a tripod. I know, for a fact, that I still have plenty of room to spare for having a better output. I could output those scenes up to 7-8K without having nothing but great improvement in the VR experience.
Why the hell would you vouch against that?


I´m "vouching against" NOTHING. I added some thoughts.

Amidee wrote:Maybe it's a borderline case, but it's something that I've experienced at least 15 times in the past year: content that it future proof for at least the next 5 years in terms of VR experience (and only that matters to me)


Understandable. Well known issue. But your question was: "is there any planned support for h265 and 8K output?"

Amidee wrote:And still, it's completely ridiculous your idea that higher resolutions "need" higher shutter speeds; great directors still shoot 4K@ 1/25 or 1/50 for having the right amount of motion blur.


"Great directors" shoot very different things from what you shoot. FPS is a vital point of discussions among "great directors" - or more "usual" directors - and camera-men as well as cutters.

Going for high resolution has ONE reason: best achievable image-quality. This doesn´t mean that there NEVER are
blurred images - there are - but IF the image is blurred then it makes sense and was well written in the script.

Talk to some "great directors" - i did.

As said: coming from analogue i learned - i terms of movie-making as well as in terms of photography - that a higher solution naturally shows more details. The more details you can realize i an image the more artefacts you can realize in the image. Logically. One of the "artifacts" is blur. In an image featuring low resolution you wouldn´t see blur - but if the image has a higher resolution you´ll definitely realize the blur very fast.

What does that tell us? Higher resolution is MUCH more sensitive to image-blur - because you simply can recognize much more details. Solution: to avoid blur you need to use shorter exposure-times.

Amidee wrote:We will shoot at even 120 fps (and consequent shutter speeds) because it will augment the VR experience, but that's still extremely beyond the point I'm making here


It´s not only NOT "extremely beyond . ." - it´s definitely not a centimeter "beyond". That´s what i tried to explain.

"VR" is VERY MUCH related to optimal image-quality. And so is "augmented reality" as well. But in fact this demand gets fulfilled very rarely. Image-quality is a RESULT from several parameters which need to get matched.

Image-quality FIRST HAND is related to the way you SHOOT.

I´m experimenting with goggles like the Oculus and cardboard-devices. Depending on the resolution of the smartphone you put into them it´s extremely different what you see. Using a 2,5k device you´ll realize a lot more issues you don´t see at all on a device featurig a lower resolution.

The FEEL of your VR/Augmented VR heavily depends on the "cleanness" of the imaging. The "cleaner" the imaging is the more "natural" is the VR. That´s quite logical - it´s just physics.

"Cleanness" means sharpness, which means sharply shot images. "Sharpness" means "high resolution".
"High resolution" = sharp images is related to sharp photography.

Amidee wrote:And again, I still don't get why you wouldn't vouch for h265 support both in output and in playback.


I NEVER "vouched against" h265 support!! . . . that would make no sense at all. We NEED acceptable compression.
And h265 definitely MEANS acceptable compression.

Klaus

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:25 pm

Would you have replied differently if I asked "up to 8K support"?
Because that's what I meant, but you jumped up telling me that I don't need/I can't do that.
Yours are all fair points, but this is completely, totally irrelevant to the discussion. If you want to discuss all of this, open another thread.
Even if you wanted to tell me that I don't need 8K, go open another thread on "why you don't need 8K"; don't waste our time explaining obvious things in a horrible way and with a extremely impolite sense of smugness you've stated from post one (basically telling me that I don't know anything).

It took me like 5 posts to actually understand (because you're awful at explaining yourself, just to be clear) the point you were trying to take home and now I can tell you safely that you went completely off topic.

If I told you that I'm shooting with 10 red epics because I can afford it, would you have shut up and let me ask for this support without you telling me I can't? Because I believe you should have done so, even before posting the first post.

Please do not read this like I'm angry - it's just that I need this for my job, and the last thing I need is somebody derailing a serious question.

Nobody needs your "thoughts", I'll re state: I know what I ask and why. No need for you or anybody to tell a complete stranger that he's got it all wrong.


One of the "artifacts" is blur. In an image featuring low resolution you wouldn´t see blur - but if the image has a higher resolution you´ll definitely realize the blur very fast.

And I would love to know if you know anybody that shoots and SELLS VR experiences where the camera moves (I do, actually, and I know the limitations very well). It's mainly done on a tripod, no blur.
And if stuff moves, it does slowly
and if it does fast, it's ok if I have motion blur.
I have sharp images
I have clean images
I don't need you to tell me that my images are not up to standard without even seeing them.

Thanks for the concern, but it was totally not the place.

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Re: 8K/h265

by psatter » Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:56 pm

I agree with Amidee. We need ability to not only full proof content, but let me tell you about something we do in Los Angeles, CA in the post production movie world.

1. We shoot in 5k or 6k on Red cameras.
2. In post, we do all of our cuts and colorization/ styling.
3. We squeeze the video down to 4k... hence the image quality becomes sharper.

Given that process, we would need a larger output from Kolor APV.

As far as playback, I've been to RED Dragon demo in Las Vegas this year and watched an 8k demo playback without any dropped frames. How? Google Quadro VCA. It's ready for consumers if they want it.

But, imagine us PROFESSIONAL 360 content creators. We want the best/ sharpest image quality. Imagine a museum client wants you to playback a 360 experience on a 8k projector on a 100 or 200 foot screen. Imagine that.. but you were only able to output a softie 4k image quality. The director of the museum will say, 'Is that even HD quality?' =/

As professional content creators like Amidee, we would need the ability to output the highest image quality to large events, shows, museums.... We just need the ability to export higher than 4K and import into After Effects, Premiere, Final cut (which all support 8k). Let us worry about the playback hardware.

Hope this helps justify the need to output greater than a 4k export.

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:00 pm

Amidee wrote:Thanks for the concern, but it was totally not the place.



That´s YOUR opinion. I have a different one.

Klaus

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:13 pm

This is not how forums work; you're going off topic and also quite rude assuming you know better than the others that ask for the feature.
I don't care if you have 8k posts and are a veteran around here, the netiquette has always been another.
(Again) If you could please refrain from posting in this discussion if you don't have anything better to bring to the discussion than trying to teach other professionals unrelated things.
Once again, I will be more than happy to discuss the issues you introduced in another topic, but since we both agree that h265 is a priority and this is the thread's topic, I think we're done here

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:02 pm

psatter wrote:I agree with Amidee. We need ability to not only full proof content, but let me tell you about something we do in Los Angeles, CA in the post production movie world.

1. We shoot in 5k or 6k on Red cameras.


Then you might know the way to shoot - using GoPro is kind of different, you know . . ;) :cool:

psatter wrote:3. We squeeze the video down to 4k... hence the image quality becomes sharper.


So do i - using "Squeeze" by the way . . =D

psatter wrote:Given that process, we would need a larger output from Kolor APV.


can you specify this demand?

psatter wrote:As far as playback, I've been to RED Dragon demo in Las Vegas this year and watched an 8k demo playback without any dropped frames. How? Google Quadro VCA. It's ready for consumers if they want it.


I know it with RED and experimental ARRI - as well as from Nikon D800 as 8k in stop-motion.

psatter wrote:But, imagine us PROFESSIONAL 360 content creators. We want the best/ sharpest image quality. Imagine a museum client wants you to playback a 360 experience on a 8k projector on a 100 or 200 foot screen. Imagine that.. but you were only able to output a softie 4k image quality. The director of the museum will say, 'Is that even HD quality?' =/
As professional content creators like Amidee, we would need the ability to output the highest image quality to large events, shows, museums.... We just need the ability to export higher than 4K and import into After Effects, Premiere, Final cut (which all support 8k). Let us worry about the playback hardware.


I produce for museums and art exhibitions. I use to use 1,2 up to 4 Gigapixel-tours indoors for interactive panoramas. No problem showing them on very big screens.
Actually i test mixing hires-video and hires-photography - i do 8k using Nuke and FinalCut. But i also scale it down to 4k - because of datasize and pristine sharpness in details.

Klaus

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Re: 8K/h265

by Destiny » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:31 am

Now I am even more confused... Ok, suppose you are right.. Who gets to view 11k 360 Video.. I certainly cannot.. My iMac is a Retina with 5K resolution. That is huge.. The GoPro shoots images at at quite nice sharpness. But when processing into Video Sphere, using a bunch of GoPros, the quality is mostly horrible. There is no internet that can view a 11k video. I have Final Cut and Premiere, none of those can view 11k video.. I also fail to see that APV can either... So, how do you process 11k video...??

Destiny...

Amidee wrote:Destiny, each GoPro records in 4K; in the 10 camera rig, we have then 7 cameras that produce 2160 pixels on the horizontal side. 7*2160 = 15120. We have a slightly less than 30% overlap, that means that 0,72* 15120 = 11K. There you have your 11K. You can actually have almost 12K when stars and planets align and everything goes smooth as silk (and somehow overlap decreases).


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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:58 am

Amidee wrote:This is not how forums work; you're going off topic


I´m completely on Topic.

Amidee wrote:and also quite rude assuming you know better than the others that ask for the feature.


Sorry for being so blunt: that´s nonsense. I don´t assume anything. The problem is: i realize when facts get
fuzzy . .

Klaus

PS: personal offending doesn´t clear facts. Never.

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:22 pm

Destiny wrote:Now I am even more confused... Ok, suppose you are right.. Who gets to view 11k 360 Video.. I certainly cannot.. My iMac is a Retina with 5K resolution. That is huge.. The GoPro shoots images at at quite nice sharpness. But when processing into Video Sphere, using a bunch of GoPros, the quality is mostly horrible. There is no internet that can view a 11k video. I have Final Cut and Premiere, none of those can view 11k video.. I also fail to see that APV can either... So, how do you process 11k video...??

Destiny...



Destiny, read the conversation I had with Klaus and the math I brought; it's for use in virtual reality headsets, which already need higher resolution than 4K (although Klaus told me via PM that he never even bothered checking the math, so just ignore his points as they are completely moot here), because the 4K is used for the entire 360 visualization and the screens in the first consumer VR products are going to have higher resolutions than what we can push with h264 and current (compressed) outputs.

Final 12K quality is not that great, I agree, but we are still a long way from having to use 12K; I'm just asking to have support for greater resolutions, even up to 8K if I want to export a project for later use so not to have terabytes of stuff that it's going to be a real pain to reopen maybe 7 years down the road.

Klaus, I don't see where I made personal offenses to you; it's definitely not my style so it puzzles me you get criticism so badly you call it personal offense \ :

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:43 pm

Amidee wrote:(although Klaus told me via PM that he never even bothered checking the math, so just ignore his points as they are completely moot here), because the 4K is used for the entire 360 visualization


That´s what you call "math" . . . !? There was no "math" at all in what you wrote - there were incorrect/fuzzy assumptions!
I wrote that in my answer.

Klaus

PS: maybe somebody else understand better what your assumptions are like . . .

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Re: 8K/h265

by Destiny » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:47 pm

Ok.. So my confusion is.. K's have nothing to do with quality it only has to do with size.. Is that right.. I 100% agree with you that support for greater resolution is needed... I feel that the 360 video media is going to boom but the quality and the price has to improve.. I would love to see some of your work.. Thank you for being patient and explaining more.. Not saying I understand 100% but I see where you are coming from.. ;)

Destiny..

Amidee wrote:
Destiny wrote:Now I am even more confused... Ok, suppose you are right.. Who gets to view 11k 360 Video.. I certainly cannot.. My iMac is a Retina with 5K resolution. That is huge.. The GoPro shoots images at at quite nice sharpness. But when processing into Video Sphere, using a bunch of GoPros, the quality is mostly horrible. There is no internet that can view a 11k video. I have Final Cut and Premiere, none of those can view 11k video.. I also fail to see that APV can either... So, how do you process 11k video...??

Destiny...



Destiny, read the conversation I had with Klaus and the math I brought; it's for use in virtual reality headsets, which already need higher resolution than 4K (although Klaus told me via PM that he never even bothered checking the math, so just ignore his points as they are completely moot here), because the 4K is used for the entire 360 visualization and the screens in the first consumer VR products are going to have higher resolutions than what we can push with h264 and current (compressed) outputs.

Final 12K quality is not that great, I agree, but we are still a long way from having to use 12K; I'm just asking to have support for greater resolutions, even up to 8K if I want to export a project for later use so not to have terabytes of stuff that it's going to be a real pain to reopen maybe 7 years down the road.

Klaus, I don't see where I made personal offenses to you; it's definitely not my style so it puzzles me you get criticism so badly you call it personal offense \ :

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Tue Jul 14, 2015 10:00 pm

Destiny wrote:Ok.. So my confusion is.. K's have nothing to do with quality it only has to do with size.. Is that right..



Well - bigger size needs adaequate input-qualuty. Blow up a 3Mpx image up to 50x60cm and blow up a 36Mpx image to 50x60cm . . you´ll see that the bigger size makes the better input clearly visible and vice versa.

Blow up a slightly blurred image to 50x60cm you definitely will see it being blurred. Blow it up to 10x20cm you wouldn´t realize it being blurred at all.

That´s what i tried to explain: bigger output needs better input - and better input depends on several things.

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Re: 8K/h265

by Destiny » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:09 am

Since K's only relates to Size and not Quality, I personally would be pushing more for Quality than Size.. So to me now, K's means nothing.. and this is apparent with the new iris 360 where it states that their camera outputs 8K.. but average quality.. So now when I read, "An amazing 8K output" I will ignore that and focus on images quality. Since it wouldn't mater if it was 20Ks at the cost of image quality.. Their HDR is fine, best one shot option yet.. but its the rest of it thats iffy, from stitching to the nadir hole... which seems to distort the image with Google Squishing up the nadir and pulling parts of the image out of alinement, but there again.. I really need to test one for myself... In all honesty, I would not pay for a bunch of GoPros at that price. No HDR, but individual cameras image quality good, but final 360 Video very average and that is as you claim outputting a possible 12k video. Also very time consuming from what others have told me to edit.... That is a plus for the iris 360, its all done inside.. but.. only stills. however I can see a video option in the future.. I am sure other options will arrive in time that can output high Ks that match high quality sharp HDR images too.. At the moment all this technology is still very very new... With so many new players coming on board, I am sure you will get your request of 8K+ h265 very soon...

Destiny..

Amidee wrote:Hi there,
I wonder, is there any planned support for h265 and 8K output? (:

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:23 pm

Destiny wrote:Since K's only relates to Size and not Quality, I personally would be pushing more for Quality than Size.. So to me now, K's means nothing..


Well - i wouldn´t say "K means nothing" It means a lot! And that´s the problem . . =D

The meaning of high resolution formats basically is excellent quality. And of course excellent image-quality
can be better displayed on hires-displays.

So 4k, 6k, 8k makes it possible, to display content in excellent quality . . but does it make sense blowing up the
display´s pixel-amount and feed them with a mediocre image-quality?

GoPro´s image-quality with 360 video is ok! But it not even matches 1920x1080 in real good image-quality.
Too much compressions-artifacts in moves, questionable sharpness, washed-out highlights, stitching-issues on close distance and so on.

Seeing those contents in an Oculus in stereo makes fun. Real fun. Great experience.
Watching it fullsize on 4k-screens . . . .

I mean: who NEEDS it even in 4k?? Not to speak of 8k. Or more . . =D :cool:

Producing this kind of content means an investment in appropriate soft- and hardware first. For being able to produce "just" 4k in excellent quality the hardware is rather expensive - and for commercial producing you need to be technically up-front.

So: the costs for producing 360 video as 4k in excellent quality are high. High prices are normal in advertising business - which is where i come from. But the advertising industry has no use for 360 so far - not even for interactive panoramas (aside from very few attempts) . . . not to speak of 360 video in 4k on a wider scale.

4k or 8k would be great for museums - for which i produce a lot. But for them it needs to be in really excellent quality - otherwise it hardly makes sense to them.

Conclusion: IF 4k or even 8k it needs to be in EXCELLENT quality. Excellent quality starts with excellent acquisition.

Acquisition of excellent quality is widely underestimated regarding it´s complexity and the skills you need.

That´s why we see so much garbage on the web labeled "4k" . . . .

Klaus

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Re: 8K/h265

by fixer » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:00 pm

Seems like Klaus is missing the fact that it's almost always better to capture and process in a resolution higher than your delivery resolution, and some of don't delivery the output from AVP directly, it's just one step in the post production process. For now, we are stuck with exporting 16-bit tiff frames which is not efficient.

I'll agree with Amidee, we need additional output formats and increased resolution, and not just 8k h265!
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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:27 pm

fixer wrote:Seems like Klaus is missing the fact that it's almost always better to capture and process in a resolution higher than your delivery resolution,


That´s what i usually do, fixer . . . =D :cool: I´m afraid you misunderstood what i wrote.

fixer wrote:I'll agree with Amidee, we need additional output formats and increased resolution, and not just 8k h265!


ok - i´ll quit here. =D

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Re: 8K/h265

by fixer » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:45 pm

I am sure I must have misunderstood your points, because you seemed to be arguing for arguments sake and not making points really related to the feature request. If you are happy with 4k mp4 (mainconcept codec), bless your soul, but that is NOT the case over here.
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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:52 pm

fixer wrote:I am sure I must have misunderstood your points, because you seemed to be arguing for arguments sake and not making points really related to the feature request. If you are happy with 4k mp4 (mainconcept codec), bless your soul, but that is NOT the case over here.



That´s also NOT the case here, be assured.

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Re: 8K/h265

by fixer » Thu Jul 16, 2015 10:56 pm

"Shooting 8k already is a real big thing. Processing and distributing 8k in perfect quality (and otherwise 8 k definitely makes no sense at all) is a nightmare. "

We can shoot with multiple 4k cameras, stitch & post in max resolution (8k+) in a mezzanine format (without needing real-time playback or viewing) then transcode to a delivery format, which varies based on the playback/hardware platform.

It makes perfect sense to some of us.
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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:22 pm

fixer wrote:"Shooting 8k already is a real big thing. Processing and distributing 8k in perfect quality (and otherwise 8 k definitely makes no sense at all) is a nightmare. "

We can shoot with multiple 4k cameras, stitch & post in max resolution (8k+) in a mezzanine format (without needing real-time playback or viewing) then transcode to a delivery format, which varies based on the playback/hardware platform.

It makes perfect sense to some of us.


Fine. Doesn´t change anything on what i said.

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Re: 8K/h265

by fixer » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:31 pm

Sure, but all you are saying boils down to "well I wouldn't do so I have no idea why YOU would want such features"
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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:56 pm

fixer wrote:Sure, but all you are saying boils down to "well I wouldn't do so I have no idea why YOU would want such features"


Exactly. I told the reasons why i see it this way - and it´s my good right to see it this way, isn´t it. As well as it´s your good right to see it your way, ok?
We live in a free world and have the right to tell our opinions. They no way need to be identical - at least i hope so . . ;) :cool:

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Re: 8K/h265

by fixer » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:13 pm

sure, but this is a feature request forum. no need for you to argue with someone else's feature request, they weren't asking for your opinions.
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Re: 8K/h265

by Destiny » Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:15 am

I feel that this feature request has merrit... In fact I wish it was an option now... but I would kind have worded it differently... "High quality 8k+/h265, since to me it seems K's are being used by advertisers of 360 cameras to impress as aposed to quality of image... .

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:09 am

fixer wrote:sure, but this is a feature request forum.


Right. Which i am a part of for 7 years now.

fixer wrote:no need for you to argue with someone else's feature request, they weren't asking for your opinions.


Well . . . this is a FORUM. FORUMS exists to share opinions and experiences.

When i studied film in LA and NY i experienced a wide and intensive sharing of very much different opininions among us students.
That was in terms of technical details as well as regarding aesthetical details in special - and the context of both: the MEANING of high resolution for example, so to speak "philosophical" thoughts.

But i guess you indeed are the wrong adress for discussing this kind of things.

Sorry for bothering you with trying to share THOUGHTS and OPINIONS about producing visual content . . . instead of just assisting your request.

Klaus

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