8K/h265  

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8K/h265

by Amidee » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:57 am

Hi there,
I wonder, is there any planned support for h265 and 8K output? (:

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Re: 8K/h265

by psatter » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:13 pm

Great question! I 2nd Amidee's question.

An output greater than 3840x1920 would be nice.

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:35 pm

Output greater than that is supported. I routinely export @ 4096x2048

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Re: 8K/h265

by psatter » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:07 pm

You right Amidee. 4096x2048 is the highest. I've been exporting at 3840x1920, which i read that it's best for YouTube & Gear VR integration with equirect 2:1 ratio. I should try 4096x2048 resolution, just to see the difference.

Regardless 6k or 8k would be great since playback is possible on Samsung Note 4 and Youtube (8K).

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Fri Jul 10, 2015 11:45 pm

It's more for a bit of future proofing some renders
3840x1920 25fps is the maximum I've found the note 4 and gear VR can run as of this moment
Anything higher will lead to more latency

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Re: 8K/h265

by Destiny » Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:48 am

OK... Sounds like a high end request... but... I was thinking, what hardware are you suggesting to use to capture the 360 video.. You obviously need 8K media output from the camera to put 8K into the software to get 8k back out.

...or did I miss something..

Destiny..

Amidee wrote:Hi there,
I wonder, is there any planned support for h265 and 8K output? (:

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Sat Jul 11, 2015 9:06 am

The 10 camera rig I shoot with allows videos up to 11K (:

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Re: 8K/h265

by Destiny » Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:08 am

Still don't get it.. 11k sounds awesome, in fact incredible.. but who could open such videos.. If 11k why is it that the output quality is not so good on most 360 videos capture from GoPro Rigs.. The best one I have seen for a while is on the Kolor Blog but only upto 4k.. and even that struggles to load on my internet..

http://www.kolor.com/2015/06/15/jump-in ... ans-track/

I would have thought that GoPros, even a bunch of them, could never create a 11k video.. The RED Digital Cinema is a developer and manufacturer of high-resolution 6K, 5K, and 4K digital cameras for major motion pictures and professional photography. I do no now of any camera that could capture 11k video, but there probably is.. I think you are adding up the k's for each camera.. That's the total of cameras not the total K's in video quality..

The iris 360, being a Still Pano Camera, claims to capture 8k, but no way is it 8k.. I feel they are doing the same thing,.. Adding up each lens rather than the real output quality.. http://www.nctechimaging.com/iris360/

Destiny..

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Re: 8K/h265

by mediavets » Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:29 pm

Destiny wrote:
The iris 360, being a Still Pano Camera, claims to capture 8k, but no way is it 8k.. I feel they are doing the same thing,.. Adding up each lens rather than the real output quality.. http://www.nctechimaging.com/iris360/

Destiny..

I have no idea what that 8K relates to - do you?

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Re: 8K/h265

by Destiny » Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:58 pm

'K'.. is supposed to relate to the physical size of the image.... so when viewed its a high density image..as far as I know... but in the case of the iris 360, who knows... since to me 8k should be mind blowingly great... So what does 'K' actually mean.....? It should mean "Kilobytes".. The bigger the image the more K's.. So when it comes down to the iris 360.. to suggest its an "amazing 8k"... its just one of those "amazing" sales pitch stories.. Since they are claiming that their 360 camera outputs higher K's than the Red Camara..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4K_resolution

Japan 's 8k UHDTV will be known as Super Hi-Vision.. We all know that the iris 360 will never output that... and we also know that a GoPro Rig will never ever output 11k video.... and besides that.. No one would be able to view it.. Unless you were sitting next to your own Super Server..

Destiny...

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Sun Jul 12, 2015 3:51 pm

mediavets wrote:
Destiny wrote:
The iris 360, being a Still Pano Camera, claims to capture 8k, but no way is it 8k.. I feel they are doing the same thing,.. Adding up each lens rather than the real output quality.. http://www.nctechimaging.com/iris360/

Destiny..

I have no idea what that 8K relates to - do you?


Nobody can handle 8k on a consumer-level. There is harware on pro-level - but you definitely would not like to pay the price.

So this request seems basing on not profound informations/knowledge.

i can shoot 8k by shooting 25fps or 30 fps using fullframe 36mpx in stop-motion. I sometimes do that on an experimental base for hyperlapse.

No hardware so far on consumer-level can play it.

Klaus

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Destiny, each GoPro records in 4K; in the 10 camera rig, we have then 7 cameras that produce 2160 pixels on the horizontal side. 7*2160 = 15120. We have a slightly less than 30% overlap, that means that 0,72* 15120 = 11K. There you have your 11K. You can actually have almost 12K when stars and planets align and everything goes smooth as silk (and somehow overlap decreases).

Klaus, I know what I'm asking for and why.
I produce 360 video mainly for VR usage, and 4K is already basically obsolete for that.
I also make these videos for commercial usage, so if I were to have the budget (and it could happen basically any day now), I could well have a computer that handles 8K video. It only takes money and maybe a bit of time making things compatible.

Just to make some more back-of-the-envelope math.
Oculus VR announced the final spec for their consumer version: 2160x1200. Now, that's for both eyes.
We usually set up a total FOV of ~110 degrees when displaying content to our users, although it depends a little on which kind of content we want to display. I'm making an assumption here that each eye (that uses a 1920x1080 monitor) sees about 90 degrees horizontal and 110 vertical in a 1920x1080 monitor (I'm being really, REALLY conservative about the FOV but quite less conservative about the actual pixel used because of barrel distortion)

So if we push a 4096x2048 video on a Oculus, at any time we see

4096/360 = 11,377 pixels per degree of view on the long side
2048/180 = 11,377 pixels per degree of view on the short side

which means that in our 90x110 degrees per eye, we have

1024 pixels on the long side (out of 1920 - minus some black - we could have)
1251 pixels on the short side (out of 1080)

So our beloved 4K videos, as beautiful as they are, are already lacking in horizontal resolution when it comes to the first consumer VR product. Maybe I'm making some wrong assumptions, if so I'm sorry.
But this is just for consumer version 1.
If CV2,whenever that comes, pushes out dual 1440p monitors, we're going to be lacking on the vertical side, too!

We need h265 support in rendering AND in Eyes by the end of the year, as HTC Vive has the same specs and it's slated for Q4 2015!

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Re: 8K/h265

by mediavets » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:55 pm

Amidee wrote:Destiny, each GoPro records in 4K; in the 10 camera rig, we have then 7 cameras that produce 2160 pixels on the horizontal side. 7*2160 = 15120. We have a slightly less than 30% overlap, that means that 0,72* 15120 = 11K. There you have your 11K. You can actually have almost 12K when stars and planets align and everything goes smooth as silk (and somehow overlap decreases).


So the '11K' figure relates to the number of pixels on the horizontal axis of the stitched 360 video? is that correct?
....

I wonder if the Ntech claim of '8K' pano images for the iris360 camera also relates to the number of pixels on the H-axis of the stitched pano image?

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:18 pm

Yes it is
1080p, 1440p, 720p all refer to vertical resolution
2K (which is basically 1080p), 2.7K, 4K, 8K, 12K all refer to the horizontal resolution

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:21 pm

Amidee wrote:Klaus, I know what I'm asking for and why.



I´m sure you do . . ;) :cool:

I´m very much convinced we´ll have 8k. Some day.

As a professional cameraman and photographer coming from the analogue-age i´m very much used to
very high resolutions. Which means 70mm movie and up to 8x10" photographic film.
70mm film scanned high-end you usually have about 6k or 8k - but you also can have more than that
depending on the scan-process and the data you can take . .

I am involved into some developing on the digital domain regarding 6k and 8k capturing.
There are many problems to solve - of which some we cannot solve at all actually. Long story and partly
non-public.

These days displays capable of featuring 8k in good quality are VERY expensive.

Acquisition of 8k is ONE point - exhibition is another point and that´s the real issue.
http://nofilmschool.com/2012/05/nhk-fin ... data-rates

But let´s go to the basics of movie-making:
4k already makes evident the framerate. 4k with lower rates than 60fps means to capture garbage.
4k needs 60fps minimum, preferably more. No doubt.
So:
can you imagine the data you need to transfer capturing 4k@60fps?
can you imagine what that means rin terms of 8k?
Regarding the quality delivered by the 8k-resolution it´s obvious you need to shoot RAW.
That means SOME Gigabytes PER SECOND! Now imagine even just 60fps RAW in 8k . . . :O :O :cool:

Compression: one of the real issues these days in ters of quality:

"[…]in reality, there is actually much more degradation and loss of information between copies of digital images than between copies of traditional photographs. […]
One may argue that this situation is temporary and once cheaper computer storage and faster networks become commonplace, lossy compression will disappear. However, presently the trend is quite the reverse with lossy compression becoming more and more the norm for representing visual information.“Lev Manovich, The Language of New Media, S. 70"

This was just related to "mono". Imagine what it means in terms of stereo . .

Besides of that: why would you need 8k for Oculus & Co?

I was invited to a demonstration of an 8k display-technology which displayed stereo without the need of a goggle.
Really good! They used a lenticular system for seperating l+r.
Even moving around in the room kept the stereo-view rather steady.

But even better it came on a tablet. They showed me HD-Stereo captures from a mid-range video-stereo-camera.

The result was *amazingly* good! I felt like being able to reach into the screen . .

Conclusion: there are several things to come which already are rather impressing. 8k actually is not one of them.
Nevertheless it´s getting closely researched - of course.
It will take SOME way and time to go - and we´d better sit down and think whether we need it at all . . because there are may more thinks to solve than just the amount of pixels.

Klaus

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:55 pm

klausesser wrote:Conclusion: there are several things to come which already are rather impressing. 8k actually is not one of them.
Nevertheless it´s getting closely researched - of course.



For making it somewhat clearer:

You all know that higher resolutions need shorter exposure-times. So imagine
how it is shooting an image using a 36MPx camera . .
using a 50mm lens handheld already makes it hard to get a non-motion-blurred shot.

Using a 85 or 105mm lens handheld is definitely impossible to shoot @1/60 - you preferebly will use
about 1/250ec. And/or a tripod.

Now think about what "movie" means!? "Movie" means "moving objects" and "moving camera".
That means: even using a 35mm or a 50mm lens you'd better use 1/125s ec or 1/250 sec for getting real
sharp images . . . and what sense would 8k-resolution make if NOT real sharp images ?? None at all.

8k means about the image-size of a Nikon D800 (which is 7360 × 4912px). So let´s say you use a 50mm lens . . you´d need to use AT LEAST 1/60sec , preferably 1/125sec.
Now calculate 60 x 36MPx = 60 x 46MB RAW per second - which will only give you sharp movie as long as you use a stury tripod and as long as you don´t move the camera and shoot still objects. Moving the camera and shooting moving objects you´s definitely need 1/250sec = 250fps as long as you want real 8k quality.

Moving the hcamera around and shooting moving objects a resolution like 8k will show you - without any mercy - HOW UNSHARP your shots are . . .

So: high resolution without achieving optimal images definitely makes no sense at all.
Shooting 8k already is a real big thing. Processing and distributing 8k in perfect quality (and otherwise 8 k definitely makes no sense at all) is a nightmare.

Klaus

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:15 pm

Klaus, I detailed the math behind our need for resolutions over 4K (8K should be good for the next almost decade, it's just that h265 supports resolutions higher than 4K) for VR.
VR is immersive, and a truly 360 POV experience which is also quite portable.

We don't do l+r because shooting 360 bifocal is a real pain, doesn't work well enough in action situations at the moment for us and it's usually out of scope for our clients.

So I don't get why you're suggesting to use those alternative technologies, as they don't apply to our use case, whereas I'm willing to bet there are a lot of Kolor clients which use their products for VR.

I suggest you to read the h265 tech sheet; they made vast improvements in detail preserving. Projected data rate is awesome, of course at the expense of processing power.

I'm aware of the data rates of resolutions over 4K@60-120fps (our actual target) - as of now, we deliver to most clients at less than 4K and @25fps because of smoothness in playback, and I'm clocking into the hundreds of hours into testing all of this! It's my day job to do all of this testing and reasoning, so I don't have to imagine anything (:

Also, there's no RAW recording with GoPros, so I don't know why you're even suggesting that. My final output could well be already 12K as I said - granted, a crappy one because of, well, shooting with go pros instead of actual decent cameras. But the resolution is there, nonetheless.

Will it be costly to make video over 4K run smooth in VR? ####, yes
Will we need it? Yes!

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:31 pm

klausesser wrote:
klausesser wrote:Conclusion: there are several things to come which already are rather impressing. 8k actually is not one of them.
Nevertheless it´s getting closely researched - of course.



For making it somewhat clearer:

You all know that higher resolutions need shorter exposure-times. So imagine
how it is shooting an image using a 36MPx camera . .
using a 50mm lens handheld already makes it hard to get a non-motion-blurred shot.

Using a 85 or 105mm lens handheld is definitely impossible to shoot @1/60 - you preferebly will use
about 1/250ec. And/or a tripod.

Now think about what "movie" means!? "Movie" means "moving objects" and "moving camera".
That means: even using a 35mm or a 50mm lens you'd better use 1/125s ec or 1/250 sec for getting real
sharp images . . . and what sense would 8k-resolution make if NOT real sharp images ?? None at all.

8k means about the image-size of a Nikon D800 (which is 7360 × 4912px). So let´s say you use a 50mm lens . . you´d need to use AT LEAST 1/60sec , preferably 1/125sec.
Now calculate 60 x 36MPx = 60 x 46MB RAW per second - which will only give you sharp movie as long as you use a stury tripod and as long as you don´t move the camera and shoot still objects. Moving the camera and shooting moving objects you´s definitely need 1/250sec = 250fps as long as you want real 8k quality.

Moving the hcamera around and shooting moving objects a resolution like 8k will show you - without any mercy - HOW UNSHARP your shots are . . .

So: high resolution without achieving optimal images definitely makes no sense at all.
Shooting 8k already is a real big thing. Processing and distributing 8k in perfect quality (and otherwise 8 k definitely makes no sense at all) is a nightmare.

Klaus


Klaus
higher resolutions do not need noticeable shorter exposure times. Otherwise we would have gone from shooting 720 to 1080 to 4K to 8K with different exposure times. Reality is way different.
We need higher frame rates to help with delivering a better immersive experience, but that's completely beyond the point you're making (are you even making one?)

Since you are so keen on explaining me so much of movie making, please focus for a damn second on why I'm asking all of this in the first place, which you are completely ignoring: VR.

We don't move the camera, because that brings motion sickness.
We are talking 360 video in this forum, not normal videos. We shoot with GoPros, not RAW.
We need higher resolutions than 4K because we're already being late for the first generation of consumer VR equipment.

I know that I can export uncompressed (madness!) and then encode with my h265 encoder of choice, but that would mean an insane amount of data for each render passing through my disks as opposed to doing it live.

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:46 pm

Amidee wrote:Klaus, I detailed the math behind our need for resolutions over 4K (8K should be good for the next almost decade, it's just that h265 supports resolutions higher than 4K) for VR.
VR is immersive, and a truly 360 POV experience which is also quite portable.

We don't do l+r because shooting 360 bifocal is a real pain, doesn't work well enough in action situations at the moment for us and it's usually out of scope for our clients.


Agree.

Amidee wrote:So I don't get why you're suggesting to use those alternative technologies, as they don't apply to our use case, whereas I'm willing to bet there are a lot of Kolor clients which use their products for VR.


haven´t you been talking about 360x180° video?

Amidee wrote:I suggest you to read the h265 tech sheet; they made vast improvements in detail preserving. Projected data rate is awesome, of course at the expense of processing power.


I know the specs, of course. And i know the issues ;)


I'm aware of the data rates of resolutions over 4K@60-120fps (our actual target) - as of now, we deliver to most clients at less than 4K and @25fps because of smoothness in playback, and I'm clocking into the hundreds of hours into testing all of this! It's my day job to do all of this testing and reasoning, so I don't have to imagine anything (:

Amidee wrote:Also, there's no RAW recording with GoPros, so I don't know why you're even suggesting that. My final output could well be already 12K as I said - granted, a crappy one because of, well, shooting with go pros instead of actual decent cameras. But the resolution is there, nonetheless.


"The resolution is there" . . . you´re talking of the pixel-amount. Not about what "resolution" means in fact!
Seing 360x180° videos these days i mainly see compression-artifacts.

Amidee wrote:Will it be costly to make video over 4K run smooth in VR? ####, yes
Will we need it? Yes!


Do you produce 360x180° 4k-projects for clients actually? For which kind of distribution? Web?

Klaus

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:04 pm

klausesser wrote:Conclusion: there are several things to come which already are rather impressing. 8k actually is not one of them.
Nevertheless it´s getting closely researched - of course.



For making it somewhat clearer:

You all know that higher resolutions need shorter exposure-times. So imagine
how it is shooting an image using a 36MPx camera . .
using a 50mm lens handheld already makes it hard to get a non-motion-blurred shot.

Using a 85 or 105mm lens handheld is definitely impossible to shoot @1/60 - you preferebly will use
about 1/250ec. And/or a tripod.

Now think about what "movie" means!? "Movie" means "moving objects" and "moving camera".
That means: even using a 35mm or a 50mm lens you'd better use 1/125s ec or 1/250 sec for getting real
sharp images . . . and what sense would 8k-resolution make if NOT real sharp images ?? None at all.

8k means about the image-size of a Nikon D800 (which is 7360 × 4912px). So let´s say you use a 50mm lens . . you´d need to use AT LEAST 1/60sec , preferably 1/125sec.
Now calculate 60 x 36MPx = 60 x 46MB RAW per second - which will only give you sharp movie as long as you use a stury tripod and as long as you don´t move the camera and shoot still objects. Moving the camera and shooting moving objects you´s definitely need 1/250sec = 250fps as long as you want real 8k quality.

Moving the hcamera around and shooting moving objects a resolution like 8k will show you - without any mercy - HOW UNSHARP your shots are . . .

So: high resolution without achieving optimal images definitely makes no sense at all.
Shooting 8k already is a real big thing. Processing and distributing 8k in perfect quality (and otherwise 8 k definitely makes no sense at all) is a nightmare.

Klaus

Amidee wrote:higher resolutions do not need noticeable shorter exposure times.


They do.

Amidee wrote:Otherwise we would have gone from shooting 720 to 1080 to 4K to 8K with different exposure times. Reality is way different.


"Reality" is what you see when you have a close look.

Amidee wrote:We need higher frame rates to help with delivering a better immersive experience, but that's completely beyond the point you're making (are you even making one?)


That´s what i´m talking about. But i see you don´t understand the implications.

Amidee wrote:Since you are so keen on explaining me so much of movie making, please focus for a damn second on why I'm asking all of this in the first place, which you are completely ignoring: VR.


I am VERY aware of what you are talking about. I realize exactly THIS is the problem . .

Sorry, i´ll quit here. Too different levels of knowledge.

Klaus

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:29 pm

Are you serious? You derail the discussion to this point, take the time to troll-multiquote (without of course replying to anything seriously) and then just rage quit?
The hell, man?

Do you produce 360x180° 4k-projects for clients actually? For which kind of distribution? Web?


Are you even reading? VR!!! That's what we've been doing for the past year!

Yes, I know, the pixels are there but the quality is still lacking, but we're still way behind the point where we hit the go pro compression quality in VR playback - yet we need the extra resolution from h265 support. Have you even tried an Oculus DK2?

I don't know why you wouldn't vouch for this - support for h265 gets better data rates and support for superior resolutions.

Too different levels of knowledge... Get off the pedestal. Can't believe this. You don't know nothing about me, why the smugness?

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Re: 8K/h265

by klausesser » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:44 pm

Amidee wrote:Too different levels of knowledge... Get off the pedestal. Can't believe this. You don't know nothing about me, why the smugness?


No "pedestal" - i just read what you write. And i don´t like the rather offensive style in which you communicate.
I really tried to adress your theme - but i´m used to go into things i´m talking about a bit deeper when i feel there are some explanations needed.

Sometimes people do not want deeper informations or explanations. That´s ok for them - and so i pull out.

Klaus

P.S.:

Amidee wrote:Are you even reading? VR!!! That's what we've been doing for the past year!


I don´t know what YOU might understand "VR!!!" - i just know what I understand: "virtual reality".
Now that´s a wide array of things . . reaching from an Oculus kind of gadget to tablets or desktops or
beamers or user-terminals in buildings . . or whatever.
And not to forget: the original meaning of "virtual reality" was the use in a "cave" or an inside an array of sensors
wearing a data-glove and a helmet-like device featuring a stereo-display - like we have with an Oculus these days.
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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:56 pm

I'm not used to forums anymore, that's for granted. A complete stranger being smug about what I say and telling me basically that I don't know jack is something I forgot that could even happen. (edit: and of course, for you it's my fault that you don't want to bring all the info to the table. If you don't want to explain yourself, don't post, ffs!)
All the while saying stuff that completely misses the point!

I took the time to explain everything in detail and you simply threw in stuff that really wasn't the point at all!

Why are you even bothering telling me that you need lower shutter speeds for longer focal lengths? It doesn't matter at all with shooting 360 video with GoPros, dammit.

Or was that an example? A rather wrong one! Let me explain why.

I've shot 360 videos from tripods for big buck clients which could extremely benefit from the extra resolution in the near future. I know it's not the best resolution ever (I know well the detail vs resolution dilemma) because yeah, it's GoPros we're talking about.

What about a big local tourism association that uses 360 video for marketing purposes? I'm shooting in full light, gorgeous weather, slow moving things and actors (but moving nonetheless) from a tripod. I know, for a fact, that I still have plenty of room to spare for having a better output. I could output those scenes up to 7-8K without having nothing but great improvement in the VR experience.
Why the hell would you vouch against that?

Maybe it's a borderline case, but it's something that I've experienced at least 15 times in the past year: content that it future proof for at least the next 5 years in terms of VR experience (and only that matters to me)

And still, it's completely ridiculous your idea that higher resolutions "need" higher shutter speeds; great directors still shoot 4K@ 1/25 or 1/50 for having the right amount of motion blur.
We will shoot at even 120 fps (and consequent shutter speeds) because it will augment the VR experience, but that's still extremely beyond the point I'm making here (which starts and ends with the simple math I explained in one of the first posts I made).

And again, I still don't get why you wouldn't vouch for h265 support both in output and in playback.

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:11 pm

For real, Klaus: I get what you mean, but the math is on my side
I'm delivering 11% of the total pixels I have shot
ELEVEN
PERCENT
you're trying to tell me that I don't have ANYTHING to gain from having the additional output?
Is that really your point? That since I'm not shooting at one bajillion fps from a tripod, none of those additional 64 million pixels I have will deliver any additional quality?

Is this your line of reasoning?

I'm not delivering full 4K right now, so it's not like I need this today.
But by the end of the year 4K⁺ is an actual possibility and I really would like to have the ability to output h265 so to squeeze the best actual experience I can get with the hardware I have at hand, whatever that will be

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Re: 8K/h265

by Amidee » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:45 pm

klausesser wrote:
Amidee wrote:I don´t know what YOU might understand "VR!!!" - i just know what I understand: "virtual reality".
Now that´s a wide array of things . . reaching from an Oculus kind of gadget to tablets or desktops or
beamers or user-terminals in buildings . . or whatever.
And not to forget: the original meaning of "virtual reality" was the use in a "cave" or an inside an array of sensors
wearing a data-glove and a helmet-like device featuring a stereo-display - like we have with an Oculus these days.



I lost this edit; it means what I've been saying since the beginning of this topic, which is virtual reality headsets. I even took the time to explain the math behind our need for h265, which is the whole point of this thread, instead of focusing on your idea on why nobody in the world will be able to make an over 4k output that makes sense.

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