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 Post subject: Rig Question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:14 pm 
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Hi,

I got a Question about the Rig for the GoPro's - we're not sure if we should go for the H3Pro6/H3Pro6n orH3Pro7.
Already saw Demo Videos of Pro6 and Pro6n - but none of Pro7?

In my understanding the stitching Quality should be best with Pro7 as there is the most overlap? Is this correct?

Thank you
Andreas

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:45 am 
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Hellkeeper wrote:
Hi,

I got a Question about the Rig for the GoPro's - we're not sure if we should go for the H3Pro6/H3Pro6n orH3Pro7.
Already saw Demo Videos of Pro6 and Pro6n - but none of Pro7?

In my understanding the stitching Quality should be best with Pro7 as there is the most overlap? Is this correct?

Thank you
Andreas

good overview can be found here:
http://www.kolor.com/360-video/record

so if you wanna have fullspheres, thant the H3Pro7HD would not the best choice etc....
Georg

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Last edited by gkaefer on Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Hi Georg,

thx - I know the overview - but I try to understand why the H3Pro6n is the prefered Rig for UAV/Helm Mount. And why we should not use the H3Pro7 for that purpose? And if H3Pro7 is better than the H3Pro6n.
Trying to figure out which Rig to buy for our usecases.

The H3Pro7HD is not in Question as we ant to go for fullsphere. (H3Pro6 or H3Pro7)

Andreas

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:38 pm 
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Hellkeeper wrote:
Hi Georg,

thx - I know the overview - but I try to understand why the H3Pro6n is the prefered Rig for UAV/Helm Mount. And why we should not use the H3Pro7 for that purpose? And if H3Pro7 is better than the H3Pro6n.
Trying to figure out which Rig to buy for our usecases.

The H3Pro7HD is not in Question as we ant to go for fullsphere. (H3Pro6 or H3Pro7)

Andreas

Hallo Andreas,

I think its about workflows....
the Pro6 and the Pro7 can be put easyly on a monopod. and here the nadir is minimal, no patching needed. with go por helmet mounts you dont have monopod like mountings, like: http://www.camforpro.com/GoPro-Grab-Bag_detail_85_250.html here its getting difficult to an patching free nadir. but additional the cams are mounted to not to minimize the parallax errors. you would have to move the the pro7 30" and the pro6 for 45" to get lenses oriented horizontally to reduce parallax errors. to do so you need extra mountings to attach all on the helmet.
The Pro6n has horizontally alligned lenses by default and plenty of room to attach the mountings between helmet and the 360" mount (but a big patching area unvovered by video)

so for full spherical video + patchless nadir + not to close objects (2-3m+ I would guess) + not to fast movements (highspeed boat, downhill skiing/mountainbiking etc.) I woudl go for the Pro7. if you need closer objects + more speedy eventy than incline the moutn 30" to reduce parallax but than I would guess you will have artefacts in nadir coming from the mounting between the rig and the helmet.

Georg

PS: a collegue is using up the normal plastic mounts available from gopro like chocs... hes mounting 1 hd3 on his 800cm2 bike. the vibrations are breaking them on daily basis.
so if you go extreme sports I would suggest to buy an 3D-printer like http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/409630/Velleman-3D-Drucker-Bausatz-K8200 and print your own rig. with rig 3-4 its getting cheaper than buying them... minimum go for alu mounts and not for plastic ones...

PPS: but also I think the seen videos until now (regardless of used rig) dont convince me. its really bad quality. dont know if this is the hd3 (caution: the hd3 is getting realllllllly hot if used more than 30min. crashed, reboots are you best friends - I think this got much worse compaed to hd2 - I also had collegues selling their hd3 again to buy hd2. for web no quality difference, much less space needed and much better cam robustnes and much cheaper too.) or the rig or the stitching software - or just the until now used reduced output quality to reduce the final filesize).

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Last edited by gkaefer on Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:48 pm 
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Hi Georg,

ok - as for the mounting - the point is clear! ;-)
could you explain me why Pro7 isn't that good for fast movements?

Just don't get the link between speed/parallax

Guess I'm missing some basics here? :-/

Andreas

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:00 pm 
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Hellkeeper wrote:
Hi Georg,

ok - as for the mounting - the point is clear! ;-)
could you explain me why Pro7 isn't that good for fast movements?

Just don't get the link between speed/parallax

Guess I'm missing some basics here? :-/

Andreas

mount one hd3 on a motorbike and see how the image is wobbling/warping in all directions at the same time, not just shaking up/down/left/right. (why: the lens is not torsion fit!) so now think you've 2 wobbling/warping images with 20% overlapping area.... no chance to get rid of additional created parallaxe problems. and now handle the 7 cams....
... no fast movements = no wobbling no torsion/warping of the lens/sensor = no additional parallax error sources

if you incline the lenses as described in the kolor comparison than you can reduce the parallax problem again. the gopro lenses is 170"fov so most less parallax are in center part of image. if the lenses are oriented so the 6 cams are looking towards horizontal line than you've most scenes in optimum place located... so the pro7 is not worser than the pro6n I would guess you've just more work to reduce artefacts from mounting the rig on helmet.

Georg

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Last edited by gkaefer on Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:44 pm 
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ok - now it makes sense! ;-)
Thank you for your explanation!!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:03 am 
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George,

The GoPro is not a product in the classical sense of the word....it's an assembly of a chip/a lens and some electronics. Most components are of the shelf. The lenses used are CCTV lenses, the chips used are CCTV chips.....these can run at 30 to 60 fps but don't use a butterfly shutter (like a DSLR camera when filming). Having said that if it wasen't invented it has to be invented. Looking straight ahead this presents no problem since well, object don't move in the line of site. When looking left and right this does present a problem. The image is read from top till bottom in lets say 1/10 of second. So a pole close to the camera is seen at a different position relative to the camera when the frame starts then when the frame ends causing it to be warped. This is known as the roling shutter effect. Now this can be corrected in software (to a degree) and I don't know if the Kolor boys (and girls) do that. Now I must say roling shutter on a GoPro is not a bad as on a DSLR since it uses a FE lens (and for real roling shutter use a tele and film out the window of a train).

All in all not having a camera pointing in the normal of the direction of movement looks like a good idea.....but I would sure be interrested in seeing the results of this experiment.

Greets, Ed.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:28 pm 
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Artisan New wrote:
George,

The GoPro is not a product in the classical sense of the word....it's an assembly of a chip/a lens and some electronics. Most components are of the shelf. The lenses used are CCTV lenses, the chips used are CCTV chips.....these can run at 30 to 60 fps but don't use a butterfly shutter (like a DSLR camera when filming). Having said that if it wasen't invented it has to be invented. Looking straight ahead this presents no problem since well, object don't move in the line of site. When looking left and right this does present a problem. The image is read from top till bottom in lets say 1/10 of second. So a pole close to the camera is seen at a different position relative to the camera when the frame starts then when the frame ends causing it to be warped. This is known as the roling shutter effect. Now this can be corrected in software (to a degree) and I don't know if the Kolor boys (and girls) do that. Now I must say roling shutter on a GoPro is not a bad as on a DSLR since it uses a FE lens (and for real roling shutter use a tele and film out the window of a train).

All in all not having a camera pointing in the normal of the direction of movement looks like a good idea.....but I would sure be interrested in seeing the results of this experiment.

Greets, Ed.

Ed -
Each and every camera is made from an "assembly of a chip/a lens and some electronics" ;) . . . and a DSLR doesn´t use a "butterly shutter" for video. The mechanical shutter remains open when filming.

Or what do you mean saying "butterfly shutter (like a DSLR when filming)"??

Klaus

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:13 pm 
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Klaus having trouble understanding me wrote:
Or what do you mean saying "butterfly shutter (like a DSLR when filming)"??

Sowwy, Klaus.....I know, I know I have used a DSLR you know (sjjjjjjjjjjjttt, I tend to keep it quit). And filming with it (or with a micro 4/3) means no Butterfly Shutter, means open shutter, means rolling shutter.

Klaus stating the obvious with a wink so allowed and forgiven wrote:
Each and every camera is made from an "assembly of a chip/a lens and some electronics"

Yeah, but the sensor in you Canon was made by Canon, designed by Canon, kissed goodnight by Canon etc. etc (the wimps at Nikon buy one from Sony and play around with it for a while)......the keyword here was of the shelf. You can buy the lenses of a GoPro 2 in China by the 100 (or by the 1, if you part with a few dollars more) they ar in fact so called S-mount lenses. And you can buy the chips/sensor of the GoPro 2 (or a compairable one) about everywhere. It's a nice product and it sure serves it's purpose, but lets face it, like all great idea's it's not rocket science.

What this learns me is that I have to formulate a little clearer. A bit difficult when you're in the middle of a few builds. Yeps the motorised mount is a fun project and I need a 3D printer.......and a 3-axis mill......and, and, and, and........so lets build.

Greets, Ed.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:08 pm 
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Artisan New wrote:
And filming with it (or with a micro 4/3) means no Butterfly Shutter, means open shutter, means rolling shutter.

"Rolling shutter" hasn´t to do anything with any kind of "shutter" at all - it´s just a name for the line-by-line read out process.

Which indeed is comparable to a horizontal or vertical moving focal-plane shutter regarding fast moving objects.

Klaus

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