APG 3+ back to basics.... HOW TO USE IT? 2  

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klausesser
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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:01 pm

Destiny wrote:Totally agree Andrew.. But I would go even further and suggest that the hobbyist market was even more important since there would be a lot more of them/us... I would think that many of those would have dreams to do pano photography for a living.

From that point on you´re no more "just" an amateur.

Destiny wrote:But if they struggle to produce a commercial quality pano with their hardware, they may well pass on buying APG after the trail..

"Commercial quality" not only needs appropriate hardware, sorry.

Besides: doing commercial work there´s only two applications: APG and PTGui. Both come to comparable costs -
and both mean to develop appropriate skills to use them to achieve commercial quality.

The same it with the apps around them: Photomatix resp. Oloneo, Photoshop/Lightroom/Aperture and such.

The best and most forwarded applications can´t help as long as users can´t use them well enough to achieve commercial quality.

Btw.: "commercial quality" isn´t good enough these days . . ;)

Destiny wrote:I have to confess I am still using the trial.. If the software worked for me, I would never be using it as a trail. I feel its a real shame that fusion is not working too well..

There might be features that don´t work in the trial versions . . .

Destiny wrote:APG has some great features which I have already mentioned and also other popular software PTGui does not have the xml plugins options which is just wonderful.

You told us you "use PGTui 9.1.7 for ages" . . . but you don´t even know that PTGui 9.1.7 uses PapyWizard-XML import - which works perfectly btw. . . ????

Klaus
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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:05 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:The point I was making was not about the number of photos in one stack, but was about the fact that the number of photos in one stack is most of the time a lot smaller then the number of photos in a whole panorama.

Whatever you want to state by saying that . . :cool: - but let´s be precise:

I used 12EV-stacks - about 600 images for being processed to a 50-image mosaic.

I also had 3x245 images processed for a full sphere - shot with 85mm.

So: i really don´t understand the sense of your saying: "the fact that the number of photos in one stack is most of the time a lot smaller then the number of photos in a whole panorama"

Klaus

I think what he's saying is that batch processing with Photomatix considers one 'stack' (a set of bracketed exspoures at the same shooting poistion) ) at a time. APG on the other hand seems to consider all stacks at the same time.

Thanks Andrew
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:08 pm

mediavets wrote:I think what he's saying is that batch processing with Photomatix considers one 'stack' (a set of bracketed exspoures at the same shooting poistion) ) at a time. APG on the other hand seems to consider all stacks at the same time.

Andrew -
when you give 8 sets of 3 exposures = 24 images to Photomatix for being processed to 8 fusioned images for being stitched
and when you import 8 x 3 = 24 images as sets (stacks) to APG - where´s the difference? There is none.

Did you ever do it this way?

best, Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:15 pm

HansKeesom wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
Destiny wrote:em... I used your email address from here... If you did not receive it I will send it again...

Destiny...

Got your invitation in dropbox., downloading now 60 files, one hour left. Will let you know.

Downloaded, started the stitch, just importing the images as they are, no xml-ing ;-)

A 1.36 GB photoshop file is on it's way back again. Will take 4 hours to upload, hope it then get's into your dropbox. You have to colorbalance it in photoshop but I guess that is no problem for you right.

Didn't do anything to it, not even choose to select HDR. Just interested to see how you like it like this.

How you want the final result, do you want layers to be generated so you can fuse it in photoshop?
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:17 pm

mediavets wrote:In the days before the IBM PC, WordStar running on CP/M could do most of what most people use Word for today and it ran happily in 32Kbytes of RAM on a system with two floppy disk drives. Nowadays the printer drivers alone run to tens of Megabytes of code.

Yes - and 150 years ago people took even very long journeys in stage coaches . . . ;)

Nobody - nobody - is forced to do panoramas of more than the widely common 7 or 8 shots using a manual head and a fisheye . . you can do that on 2GB notebooks.

When people want to have more - they need to "do" more. Read my foot-note:

"If you want something you´ve never had,
then you´ve got to do something you´ve never done."

Klaus
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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:17 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:I think what he's saying is that batch processing with Photomatix considers one 'stack' (a set of bracketed exspoures at the same shooting poistion) ) at a time. APG on the other hand seems to consider all stacks at the same time.

Andrew -
when you give 8 sets of 3 exposures = 24 images to Photomatix for being processed to 8 fusioned images for being stitched
and when you import 8 x 3 = 24 images as sets (stacks) to APG - where´s the difference? There is none.

Did you ever do it this way?

best, Klaus

The difference is the number of photos that the programm needs to hold in memory at the same time. Photomatix will have 3 at the same time, APG seems to try to keep 24 in memory at the same time. That way APG needs a lot more memory.

This is why fusing before APG allows you to work with less memory.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:29 pm

mediavets wrote:And in 1981 Bill Gates is supposed to have said that 640Kbytes of RAM is enough for anyone.

Gates always denies having said that.

mediavets wrote:In 1984 the first Apple Mac had one floppy drive and 128Kbytes of RAM (and cost nearly $2,500!).

What did a PC + monitor cost at this time? See here: "A more typical system for home or school with a memory of 64K bytes, a single diskette drive and its own display, was priced around $3,000".
PCs at this time still had 5 1/4" floppies - Mac started with 3,5".
http://oldcomputers.net/ibm5150.html
http://oldcomputers.net/macintosh.html

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:35 pm

HansKeesom wrote:This is why fusing before APG allows you to work with less memory.

My words "for ages" . . . . :D:cool:

Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:38 pm

HansKeesom wrote:Will take 4 hours to upload, hope it then get's into your dropbox.

4 hours upload on your side - how long will it take Destiny for downloading it?

Klaus
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by mediavets » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:41 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:In the days before the IBM PC, WordStar running on CP/M could do most of what most people use Word for today and it ran happily in 32Kbytes of RAM on a system with two floppy disk drives. Nowadays the printer drivers alone run to tens of Megabytes of code.

Yes - and 150 years ago people took even very long journeys in stage coaches . . . ;)

You missed the 'point' - a car or a bus or a train or jet aircarft obviously does a lot more for travellers than a stage coach can/could, but the latest version of Word doesn't do a hell of a lot more - for the avereage person - than Wordstar on CP/M (or the first Apple Mac) did, yet it demands massively greater resources.

Nobody - nobody - is forced to do panoramas of more than the widely common 7 or 8 shots using a manual head and a fisheye . . you can do that on 2GB notebooks.

When did you last try doing that using APG 3.x using images shot on a modern DSLR?

I notice the Min. spec. for APP/APG went up from 1GB RAM to 2GB when 3.x superceded 2.x, but my experience is that 3.x is considerably more resource hungry than 2.x and I have image sets (not huge by any means, I don't use exposure bracketing and my 'primitive' camera sensor is only 6MP) that I could process quite happily with APG 2.6 that 3.x baulks at with Windows XP/32 and 4GB RAM.
Andrew Stephens
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by mediavets » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:43 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:And in 1981 Bill Gates is supposed to have said that 640Kbytes of RAM is enough for anyone.

Gates always denies having said that.

best, Klaus

Well he would wouldn't he...;)
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:43 pm

HansKeesom wrote:The difference is the number of photos that the programm needs to hold in memory at the same time. Photomatix will have 3 at the same time,

What makes you think that Photomatix "will have 3 at the same time in Memory"??? Did you get this iformation from Photomatix?

HansKeesom wrote:APG seems to try to keep 24 in memory at the same time.

"Seems"?
What makes you think so? Did you get this information from Kolor?

Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:47 pm

mediavets wrote:
Nobody - nobody - is forced to do panoramas of more than the widely common 7 or 8 shots using a manual head and a fisheye . . you can do that on 2GB notebooks.

When did you last try doing that using APG 3.x using images shot on a modern DSLR?

I notice the Min. spec. for APP/APG went up from 1GB RAM to 2GB when 3.x superceded 2.x, but my experience is that 3.x is considerably more resource hungry than 2.x and I have image sets (not huge by any means, I don't use exposure bracketing and my 'primitive' camera sensor is only 6MP) that I could process quite happily with APG 2.6 that 3.x baulks at with Windows XP/32 and 4GB RAM.

Who forces you to use 3.x?? I guess 2.x didn´t stop working suddenly - does it?

best, Klaus
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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:50 pm

klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:Will take 4 hours to upload, hope it then get's into your dropbox.

4 hours upload on your side - how long will it take Destiny for downloading it?

Klaus

Time is relative. While uploading I don't have to stare at the screen watching the bytes fly by. While downloading Destiny does not have to watch her screen either. Between the moment she started uploading her .NEF files to me and the moment she has fully received the photoshop-file she can have done so many other things like sleeping, selling and shooting other panoramas.

Anyhow, it is at least faster then the time spent on this whole discussion ......
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:03 pm

mediavets wrote:I think what he's saying is that batch processing with Photomatix considers one 'stack' (a set of bracketed exspoures at the same shooting poistion) ) at a time. APG on the other hand seems to consider all stacks at the same time.

Andrew - i well understood this . . . ;):cool:

But: Hank just guesses the implications. We have no reliable information from Kolor or Photomatix how they deal with it.

What i always said: feeding APG with bracketed stacks OF COURSE means APG needs VERY much RAM and/or VERY fast drives for temp.

This DEFINITELY CAN NOT BE A SURPRISE for anybody - regarding it means x times the amount of images . . . good lord . . what are we discussing about here . .

I really prefer to have some fine Espressi out in the sun now . . :cool::cool:

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:03 pm

HansKeesom wrote:Time is relative.

I learned: everything is relative . . .

Klaus
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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:08 pm

klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:The difference is the number of photos that the programm needs to hold in memory at the same time. Photomatix will have 3 at the same time,

What makes you think that Photomatix "will have 3 at the same time in Memory"??? Did you get this iformation from Photomatix?

HansKeesom wrote:APG seems to try to keep 24 in memory at the same time.

"Seems"?
What makes you think so? Did you get this information from Kolor?

Klaus

Simple observation, looking at the windows task manager
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by mediavets » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:09 pm

klausesser wrote:good lord . . what are we discussing about here . .

I really prefer to have some fine Espressi out in the sun now . . :cool::cool:

best, Klaus

We are discussiing - I think - why it is that on the same (relatively low level) level of hardware you can get good exposure fusion results using Photomatix to pre-process the images before stitching (with APG) when you can't seem to get good results from the integrated exposure fusion feature in APG; and not even with much greater hardware resources.

Enjoy your coffee.
Andrew Stephens
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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:37 pm

HansKeesom wrote:How you want the final result, do you want layers to be generated so you can fuse it in photoshop?

Spent half an hour looking at previews of this panorama. Only found a dirtspot which a marker took care of. Other then that everything looks perfect. Time to generate.

Will make one where color mode is none, one with Auto and one with HDR

Will generate layers and everything in psd format.

If you want anything different destiny, let me know.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:56 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:good lord . . what are we discussing about here . .

I really prefer to have some fine Espressi out in the sun now . . :cool::cool:

best, Klaus

We are discussiing - I think - why it is that on the same (relatively low level) level of hardware you can get good exposure fusion results using Photomatix to pre-process the images before stitching (with APG) when you can't seem to get good results from the integrated exposure fusion feature in APG; and not even with much greater hardware resources.

Well - only Kolor can know, can´t they! :cool: Whereas i know you CAN get good results also fusioning inside APG! But it´s very much try and error - and hardly reproducable.
Unusable for commercial producers.

mediavets wrote:Enjoy your coffee.

Thank you, Andrew! I´m just doing :cool:

best to you, Klaus
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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:55 pm

HansKeesom wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:Got your invitation in dropbox., downloading now 60 files, one hour left. Will let you know.

Downloaded, started the stitch, just importing the images as they are, no xml-ing ;-)

A 1.36 GB photoshop file is on it's way back again. Will take 4 hours to upload, hope it then get's into your dropbox. You have to colorbalance it in photoshop but I guess that is no problem for you right.

Didn't do anything to it, not even choose to select HDR. Just interested to see how you like it like this.

How you want the final result, do you want layers to be generated so you can fuse it in photoshop?

And this how things look while rendering ;-)


Last edited by HansKeesom on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Destiny » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:38 am

em to be honest a demo PANO would have been good with some feed back on what you discovered.. so everyone can see how you went..

Destiny



klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:Will take 4 hours to upload, hope it then get's into your dropbox.

4 hours upload on your side - how long will it take Destiny for downloading it?

Klaus
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by Destiny » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:23 am

Nothing in my Dropbox yet.. emmm

and.. I must admit I did not know that PTGui had PapyWizard-XML import feature.. Very interesting.. I checked this out a while back but failed to check out the update features.. I will check it out..

Destiny
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by HansKeesom » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:21 am

Nothing discovered, just load it, detect it and render it. That's all. The .PANO can be downloaded here https://www.dropbox.com/s/o5pgik09h8sgvkg/Destiny%20Pano%20Images-DSC_2953_DSC_3012-60%20images.pano

Destiny wrote:em to be honest a demo PANO would have been good with some feed back on what you discovered.. so everyone can see how you went..

Destiny



klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:Will take 4 hours to upload, hope it then get's into your dropbox.

4 hours upload on your side - how long will it take Destiny for downloading it?

Klaus

Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by Destiny » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:31 am

Thats just a text file...

Destiny..
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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