APG 3+ back to basics.... HOW TO USE IT? 2  

Share your tips and tricks here or get help with any Panotour problem!
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Destiny
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by Destiny » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:10 am

em... I used your email address from here... If you did not receive it I will send it again...

Destiny...
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by mediavets » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:13 am

HansKeesom wrote:Only if you use the options that were not there in 2.x. If you only use the options that were there in 2.x my impression is nothing changed.

Not so...
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:17 am

HansKeesom wrote:But in the end, I don't really care. I have a job to do and that is to deliver a good stitched panorama in little time. I totally get the idea of the markers work in APG, though I have suggested some improvements. With it I can deliver things in little time and that is all I am looking for. If I need a bigger computer I just buy that tool as an investment. As I am making money with this, I am also willing to spend some.

That's a logical and rational attitude for pros to take ....but where does it leave the more typical hobbyist?

My guess is that the pro market alone is not big enough for Kolor to make a living without significantly raising prices ... the hobbyist market is important.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:22 am

Artisan S. wrote:I tried doing HDR using APP/APG 2.6 but got a bit frustrated about the time it took (forever and a day) on my 8 (soon16) Gb machine. So I broke the bank and forked over a few bob to the guys and dolls at Photomatix and well that is a whole other ballpark. What was a bit frustrating is that APP has more trouble sometimes stitching Photomatix content (nicely fusioned and expertly shot on a sturdy Gitzo trypod :)) then it has stitching ordinary photo's. I guess that the reduced contrast (the raison d'etre of fusion of course) makes it harder for APP to find adequate control points (the algorithm used enhances contrast first before checking out the exact position of the control point). Workaround (if you do not allow Photomatix to resize and work of a stirdy tripod and take your time shooting (allowing the head to setlle after each rotation), is to use the middle set of photo's for the detection of control points and then replace them (sneaky I know) with the fused Photomatix images.

What I also found in 2.6 that in fused Photomatix images I had more artifacts (for instance pieces of the vertical pole of my panorama head that were left over in the pictures if I use a FE lens) but were completely absent in the VR spheres made from the middle set of HDR frames. Somehow Photomatix fusion tends to trip APG/APP (at least the 2.6 version). If you go the color mapping route to enhance local contrast in favour of total contrast, no problemo BTW.

Greets, Ed.

This is what Destiny has reported too...however she also reports that PTGui doesn't have the same problems with the same sets of Photomatx processed images.

So we seem to have a double whammy - APG's integrated exposure fusion doesn't sem to work too well for most people and APG has some diffculties with Photomatix processed images.
Last edited by mediavets on Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:23 am

Destiny wrote:em... I used your email address from here... If you did not receive it I will send it again...

Destiny...

Got your invitation in dropbox., downloading now 60 files, one hour left. Will let you know.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by Destiny » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:36 am

Totally agree Andrew.. But I would go even further and suggest that the hobbyist market was even more important since there would be a lot more of them/us... I would think that many of those would have dreams to do pano photography for a living. But if they struggle to produce a commercial quality pano with their hardware, they may well pass on buying APG after the trail.. I have to confess I am still using the trial.. If the software worked for me, I would never be using it as a trail. I feel its a real shame that fusion is not working too well.. APG has some great features which I have already mentioned and also other popular software PTGui does not have the xml plugins options which is just wonderful. I used that with my 50mm and it was awesome.. But again my poor old Mac struggled to cope, even using Photomatix fused images.. When I get round to buying APG V3, it will not be for the fusion/hdr feature but rather for the RoundShot xml plugin and the fact I need it for LivePano..

Destiny...
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:37 am

mediavets wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
mediavets wrote:Perhaps I'm mistaken but I believe people report they can do that using Photomatix in batch mode on just such a hardware configuratiom?

Photomatix will need to have one stack at a time in memory, so maximal 7 or 9 photos. That is a lot less then the 50 photos of a whole panorama

I understand that - but pre-processing in this way with Photomatix and then stitching with APG works well but APG's integrated exposure fusion doesn't seem to - so what merit if there in APG trying to handle all the images at once?

The only merit is less steps for me. Most of panoramas I process can be processed well enough by APG. It is also saves you 39/99 dollar ;-). But if you want quality and speed, you should go the photomatix route. Klaus is often right about these things you know ;-)
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by Destiny » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:46 am

Same images has I have sent out.. but using Photomatix and PTGui.. If I could achieve this result with APG I would be very very happy... But I cannot. I have stitching issues and fusion issues.. This pano took very little time to process with a great result..

Destiny..


Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:47 am

mediavets wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:But in the end, I don't really care. I have a job to do and that is to deliver a good stitched panorama in little time. I totally get the idea of the markers work in APG, though I have suggested some improvements. With it I can deliver things in little time and that is all I am looking for. If I need a bigger computer I just buy that tool as an investment. As I am making money with this, I am also willing to spend some.

That's a logical and rational attitude for pros to take ....but where does it leave the more typical hobbyist?

My guess is that the pro market alone is not big enough for Kolor to make a living without significantly raising prices ... the hobbyist market is important.

I am not really a fan of pro/hobby discussions. To me it is mostly a matter of how much do you want to spend and what options do you have/need?

I am aware some people have more time then money to spend. So buy APP for 99 $, work on a limited computer and wait a bit longer to have your panorama look great anyway.
Actually, APG is not that much more expensive (an extra $100!!! that ain't no 'pro'-price!!!), neither is buying some more memory and an SSD. For $500 extra you can work like a pro already ;-) So what are we talking about? C'mon people, aren't we complaining about Kolor while we should be talking to the mirror?
Last edited by HansKeesom on Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by mediavets » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:07 am

HansKeesom wrote:I am not really a fan of pro/hobby discussions. To me it is mostly a matter of how much do you want to spend and what options do you have/need?

I am aware some people have more time then money to spend. So buy APP for 99 $, work on a limited computer and wait a bit longer to have your panorama look great anyway.

It isn''t a case of just having to 'wait a bit longer' some features just don't work unless syou have a pretty powerful system - as we have just been discussing. And it's not at all apparent upfront that that is the case.

Actually, APG is not that much more expensive (an extra $100!!! that ain't no 'pro'-price!!!),

If APG (and other Kplr software) because the preserve solely of pros than thos eprices will have to rise dramatically to miantain revenues.

neither is buying some more memory and an SSD.

You can't just chuck 16GB (or more) RAM in most of the sort of PCs that a typical hobbyist owns - they frequently don't support that much RAM. And most hobbyist panographers are not the sort to be taking their PCs apart to add SSDs and the like even if they could be acommodated by their systems.

Just a few hundred dollars here and a few hundred dollars there soon adds up....
Last edited by mediavets on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Destiny » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:16 am

100% right Andrew.. totally agree with all statements.. I really wish it was as easy to drop a few more RAM into my iMac. but we are very hesitant to put any old RAM in since my Mac does not support additional Mac RAM... and yes as Andrew says.. its not a matter or waiting a little bit longer at all. As you can see in the video.. It just does not work with my current images. I have to reduce the size greatly to get some kind of result.

Destiny..
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:32 am

mediavets wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:I am not really a fan of pro/hobby discussions. To me it is mostly a matter of how much do you want to spend and what options do you have/need?

I am aware some people have more time then money to spend. So buy APP for 99 $, work on a limited computer and wait a bit longer to have your panorama look great anyway.

It isn''t a case of just having to 'wait a bit longer' some features just don't work unless syou have a pretty powerful system - as we have just been discussing. And it's not at all apparent upfront that that is the case.

Actually, APG is not that much more expensive (an extra $100!!! that ain't no 'pro'-price!!!),

If APG (and other Kplr software) because the preserve solely of pros than thos eprices will have to rise dramatically to miantain revenues.

neither is buying some more memory and an SSD.

You can't just chuck 16GB (or more) RAM in most of the sort of PCs that a typical hobbyist owns - they frequently don't support that much RAM. And most hobbyist panographers are not the sort to be taking their PCs apart to add SSDs and the like even if they could be acommodated by their systems.

Just a few hundred dollars here and a few hundred dollars there soon adds up....

I fully understand that money does not grow on trees. That's why I advice people to try to make money with this or find something else. That is also why I work together with a number of photographers and do the stitching for them and offer them a RDP session to my server to edit their virtual tour.
That way they only need about 1000 euro of equipment to get started in panorama-photography and do not need to invest in a large computer and skills and knowledge. I train them to make the photos and then then they can go off and find their own customers.

I don't like take computers apart, but as a small businessman I have to do these things to get my business forward. I can't hide behind the lack of capital nor the lack of skills/nerves, I have to do things to move forward, be creative, find solutions instead of excuses
Last edited by HansKeesom on Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:52 am

HansKeesom wrote:
Destiny wrote:em... I used your email address from here... If you did not receive it I will send it again...

Destiny...

Got your invitation in dropbox., downloading now 60 files, one hour left. Will let you know.

Downloaded, started the stitch, just importing the images as they are, no xml-ing ;-)
Last edited by HansKeesom on Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:05 pm

Artisan S. wrote:.....only the materials used in the recreation would probably not be to the liking of Mies

Ed - it´s a MODEL of 1:1 size . . . It´s made mainly from wood.
Will be lasting untill September. Then it will be "unmounted".

Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:16 pm

Destiny wrote:Thats what I use.. Photomatix Pro... Amazing program...

I have had PTGui 9.1.7 for ages now... There are no other updates..

Destiny..

"For ages now"?? 9.1.7 was released February 2013 - just 5 months ago . . . .

Klaus
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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:26 pm

klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:Thats what I use.. Photomatix Pro... Amazing program...

I have had PTGui 9.1.7 for ages now... There are no other updates..

Destiny..

"For ages now"?? 9.1.7 was released February 2013 - just 5 months ago . . . .

Klaus

Have not been trying ptgui ever this winter season when things were a bit slow. I guess age is relative to one own age ;-)
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:28 pm

HansKeesom wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
Destiny wrote:em... I used your email address from here... If you did not receive it I will send it again...

Destiny...

Got your invitation in dropbox., downloading now 60 files, one hour left. Will let you know.

Downloaded, started the stitch, just importing the images as they are, no xml-ing ;-)

Rendering on 16 GB machine, transferring all to 64 GB machine......
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:30 pm

Artisan S. wrote:Just buy a set of (clustered) machines for the calculation part and a powerfull Mac Pro for the editing. As 2.6 also contains a multithreaded/multicored architecture that should not be so hard.

Ed - nice theory. But a theory. If she would use a "powerful Mac" she would not need a
PC additionally.

The issue with APG is NOT the rendering. On a powerful Mac it doesn´t take long. APG *renders* way faster than PTGui for axemple.

Issues rise in editing multi-stack sets and very big images. Even on my "powerful" (and very fast rendering) MacPro editing while having full visual control in the editor
is the only issue which *i* have . . . . due to my out-of-date graphic card. The GPU on it is not used by APG.

So let´s get to the point: regarding this whole cluster thing i definitely would prefer to have an answer about that from Kolor!

I myself honestly don´t believe at all that clustering woud make ANY sense with APG. It would need a special server-version to have an advantage from it.

I can´t see them offering such a version. Do they?

Klaus
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by HansKeesom » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:37 pm

HansKeesom wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:Got your invitation in dropbox., downloading now 60 files, one hour left. Will let you know.

Downloaded, started the stitch, just importing the images as they are, no xml-ing ;-)

Rendering on 16 GB machine, transferring all to 64 GB machine......

Loaded in editor, only 8.14 GB of RAM used, GPU RAM 448 MB used. Took some time to load. colors look great.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:42 pm

HansKeesom wrote:Mac/OS is based on Linux a.f.a.i.k. and not really a heavy OS.

No. It´s complete Unix. "Not really a heavy OS"?? I´m afraid you dont´t have any idea, Hans - sorry.

I´m pulling out here - again. I can´t stand this . . . :rolleyes:

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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:04 pm

mediavets wrote:You can't just chuck 16GB (or more) RAM in most of the sort of PCs that a typical hobbyist owns - they frequently don't support that much RAM. And most hobbyist panographers are not the sort to be taking their PCs apart to add SSDs and the like even if they could be acommodated by their systems.

Just a few hundred dollars here and a few hundred dollars there soon adds up....

Andrew - that´s all understandable. But you wouldn´t expect to win Silverstone in a Lada . . do you?

The problem is: softwares get more and more features, can do more and more fancy things. That´s fine. People enjoy that very much.

But the other side of the medal seems to fall out of sight too often: the capabilities of existing hardware on the user´s tables to handle those fine software-features.

So having a somewhat weak machine which can´t take more than 8 or 16GB of RAM for doing Gigapixels there´s a need of some decisions to make:
1) forgetting gigapixels or otherwise too much hardware-demanding panos.
2) putting in a fast SSD for temp-files and very fast HDs.
3) developing a CLEVER workflow - suited to what your system can handle well enough and optimize the handling.

Clusters i do NOT include into these considerations - especially not remoted clusters. They wouldn´t take you any further - unless you spend more mony for an ultra-fast
connection than a new and up to date local hardware would cost. And even then: they give you NO advantage AT ALL regarding editing.

Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:11 pm

marzipano wrote:They may well need to review the architecture of their fusion offerings by the weight of current evidence to make it more "a stack at a time" based like Photomatix.

Martin - Photomatix Pro provides a perfectly working batch workflow. No "a stack at a time" at all.
The only limit is the user´s hardware.

Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:33 pm

HansKeesom wrote:The point I was making was not about the number of photos in one stack, but was about the fact that the number of photos in one stack is most of the time a lot smaller then the number of photos in a whole panorama.

Whatever you want to state by saying that . . :cool: - but let´s be precise:

I used 12EV-stacks - about 600 images for being processed to a 50-image mosaic.

I also had 3x245 images processed for a full sphere - shot with 85mm.

So: i really don´t understand the sense of your saying: "the fact that the number of photos in one stack is most of the time a lot smaller then the number of photos in a whole panorama"

Klaus
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by mediavets » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:48 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:You can't just chuck 16GB (or more) RAM in most of the sort of PCs that a typical hobbyist owns - they frequently don't support that much RAM. And most hobbyist panographers are not the sort to be taking their PCs apart to add SSDs and the like even if they could be acommodated by their systems.

Just a few hundred dollars here and a few hundred dollars there soon adds up....

Andrew - that´s all understandable. But you wouldn´t expect to win Silverstone in a Lada . . do you?

No, but if the Lada spec. says it has steering I'd expect it to be able to negotiate all corners not just some corners depending on their angles.

The problem is: softwares get more and more features, can do more and more fancy things. That´s fine. People enjoy that very much.

Or do they? - what choice do they have...the software developers just keep ading features and expect users to upgrade there ahrdware according typically 0ften just to maintain performnce rather than increase performamce. I believe it's termed software bloat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_bloat

In the days before the IBM PC, WordStar running on CP/M could do most of what most people use Word for today and it ran happily in 32Kbytes of RAM on a system with two floppy disk drives. Nowadays the printer drivers alone run to tens of Megabytes of code.

And in 1981 Bill Gates is supposed to have said that 640Kbytes of RAM is enough for anyone.

In 1984 the first Apple Mac had one floppy drive and 128Kbytes of RAM (and cost nearly $2,500!).

But the other side of the medal seems to fall out of sight too often: the capabilities of existing hardware on the user´s tables to handle those fine software-features.

Nor always giving any consideration to the capaibilities of the existing users to learn how to use the new 'fine' features.

So having a somewhat weak machine which can´t take more than 8 or 16GB of RAM for doing Gigapixels there´s a need of some decisions to make:
1) forgetting gigapixels or otherwise too much hardware-demanding panos.
2) putting in a fast SSD for temp-files and very fast HDs.
3) developing a CLEVER workflow - suited to what your system can handle well enough and optimize the handling.

It's not just gigapixel panos that need those kind of specs. now - bracketed exposures shot with fisheye lenses on DSLRs with hi-res sensors for spehrical panos seem to require this too when using APG 3.x..
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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mediavets
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by mediavets » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:52 pm

klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:The point I was making was not about the number of photos in one stack, but was about the fact that the number of photos in one stack is most of the time a lot smaller then the number of photos in a whole panorama.

Whatever you want to state by saying that . . :cool: - but let´s be precise:

I used 12EV-stacks - about 600 images for being processed to a 50-image mosaic.

I also had 3x245 images processed for a full sphere - shot with 85mm.

So: i really don´t understand the sense of your saying: "the fact that the number of photos in one stack is most of the time a lot smaller then the number of photos in a whole panorama"

Klaus

I think what he's saying is that batch processing with Photomatix considers one 'stack' (a set of bracketed exspoures at the same shooting poistion) ) at a time. APG on the other hand seems to consider all stacks at the same time.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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