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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:27 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
In as much as the fused exposures from Photomatix are just that does the shutter speed in the EXIF have any validity at all?
Does any of this have any impact on APP/APG or PTGui?

Basically: no. But - ask Kolor!

best, Klaus

Well it seems it may have some imapct.

APG 3.07 stacks her images - which are fused Photomatix output - with default settings (stack by bracketing) and APG 2.6 doesn't.

So APG 3.07 is obviously using a different method to detect/identify bracketed exposures - and getting it wrong!

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Last edited by mediavets on Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:46 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
In as much as the fused exposures from Photomatix are just that does the shutter speed in the EXIF have any validity at all?
Does any of this have any impact on APP/APG or PTGui?

Basically: no. But - ask Kolor!

best, Klaus

Well it seems it may have some imapct.

APG 3.07 stacks her images - which are fused Photomatix output - with default settings (stack by bracketing) and APG 2.6 doesn't.

So APG 3.07 is obviously using a different method to detect/identify bracketed exposures - and getting it wrong!

Well - just set the preferences as you need them to be . . .

I´d never use default settings.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:30 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
I assume anyone with enough RAM has no problems stitching photomatix-processed images.

I used a MacBook Pro with 4GB RAM in the first two years of 360impressions.de . . Never had an issue with
Photomatix-processed images at all stitching them in APP resp. APG.

So i guess the issues rather might rather NOT be related to Photomatix . . or APG . . . :cool:

Klaus

Which version of APG did you use on that macbook at that time.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:06 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
I assume anyone with enough RAM has no problems stitching photomatix-processed images.

I used a MacBook Pro with 4GB RAM in the first two years of 360impressions.de . . Never had an issue with
Photomatix-processed images at all stitching them in APP resp. APG.

So i guess the issues rather might rather NOT be related to Photomatix . . or APG . . . :cool:

Klaus

Which version of APG did you use on that macbook at that time.

The one that was actual in 2009.

Klaus

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:38 pm 
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I think it might come down to RAM, since a Mac Book Pro would have more than 4 gig of RAM....

Destiny

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:40 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
I think it might come down to RAM, since a Mac Book Pro would have more than 4 gig of RAM....

Destiny

Mine had 4GB. :cool:

Klaus

PS - i did this ones with it:

http://www.360impressions.de/TourMW.html
http://www.360impressions.de/K21Full/

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Last edited by klausesser on Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 4:17 am 
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Yes, but did it not have xeon processor or what ever the are called....I want to buy a round bucket with lots of RAM. ...

Destiny

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:43 am 
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Morning all,

I've done some coding during the weekend, but yesterday morning I checked out Autopano Pro and PTGui......I fed both programs the same files and made some tests...repeatedly. Machine has 8Gb of random access memory and a 4 core 3.0 Ghz i5 processor....no other programs were running during testing (except background) my files a made with a GF1 shots are 0.666666 EV apart and 7 shots in total...I used a gloomy lobby of an apartment building to check things out....images were exposure fused using Photomatix using defaul settings....so no settings were edited.

I have 2 stacks of photomatix results:

1) a stack of 7 lumicance.hdr files which are translated by Autopano Pro 2.6.4.......to a
a) A .HDR files for further usage in Photomatix (Tonemapping) only layer merged by Autopano Pro 2.6.4.
b) A .tiff exposure fused and merged by Autopano Pro 2.6.4.

2) a stack of 7 exposure fused .tif files which are translated by Autopano Pro 2.6.4.......to a
a) A merged .tiff

3) a set of 7 (middle tier) photos as a control

Now I would have expected that when Autopano Pro 2.6.4 would have operated correctly on the files, there would be consistend results in all cases:

Results using Autopano Pro 2.6.4.
1a) I would have wound up with a ghost free .hdr that could be tonemapped to my liking in Photomatix.....not the case....I see ghosts of the vertical arm of my panorama head, prominent in the picture.

1b) I would have wound up with a ghost free .tif not the case I see ghosts of the vertical arm of my panorama head, prominent in the picture. This is consistent since in both cases some blending has to be done on 7 layers....and there my memory might break (I've checked memory usages and there were no problems).....files are only 12 Mpixel not 36 Mpixel....

2a) As Autopano Pro 2.6.4 is not involved in any way in the fusion proces this should present no problem at all, but the result still shows ghosts....this bewilders me....no even freaks me out. This is not possible....

3) A perfect panorama........

In PTGui I have all the options as well but no such problems.

Now Des how big were you HDR steps in EV? Maybe that is the answer. And to Kolor, hey as a pro tester, I've learned a few things and the words of a French Algerian coder "Softwafe is no game of thimblering, it either works or it does not work". This problem is consistent and strange....and since it happens in 3.0 and is repeatable using a Mac and a PC and on 2 continents and 2 hemispheres using 2 different cameras and using 2 different lenses, it would be wise to check into this dear coders at Kolor. If Kolor gives me an upload adres I gladly upload the images..to Kolor.

Greets, Ed.

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Last edited by Artisan New on Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:04 am 
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ftp-//ftp.autopano.net/incoming/

Just use your own password and login name you use on the kolor web site..

I am still working on my HDR setting with my VR Drive.. I will do it all over again.. I tried 1ev and then 2ev X 9 bracketed.. I feel anything less than 1ev is not great.. The more bracketed images the less halo around objects which can look horrible..

One thing interests me.. Klaus suggest to make the steps even as I understand it.. However, the HDR software allows for huge flexibility in this.. The think is.. To achive hdr, you need at least 1ev +/-... as I understand it..

Destiny..

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Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:08 am 
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Destiny wrote:
I am still working on my HDR setting with my VR Drive.. I will do it all over again.. I tried 1ev and then 2ev X 9 bracketed.. I feel anything less than 1ev is not great.. The more bracketed images the less halo around objects which can look horrible..

One thing interests me.. Klaus suggest to make the steps even as I understand it.. However, the HDR software allows for huge flexibility in this.. The think is.. To achive hdr, you need at least 1ev +/-... as I understand it..

Destiny..

As I understand it (and perhaps I don't?) the point of exposoure bracketing and then combining the bracketed exposures by some technique (HDR or exposure fusion) is to cover the entire dynamic range presented by the scene which is typically wider than a digital camera can capture in a single shot especially when shooting spherical panos.

So you need enough exposures to cover the range; the size of the step is a different issue, smaller steps (eg. 1EV rather than 2EV) can produce 'smoother' combined images apparently.

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Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:09 am 
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Destiny wrote:
ftp-//ftp.autopano.net/incoming/

Just use your own password and login name you use on the kolor web site..

I am still working on my HDR setting with my VR Drive.. I will do it all over again.. I tried 1ev and then 2ev X 9 bracketed.. I feel anything less than 1ev is not great.. The more bracketed images the less halo around objects which can look horrible..

One thing interests me.. Klaus suggest to make the steps even as I understand it.. However, the HDR software allows for huge flexibility in this.. The think is.. To achive hdr, you need at least 1ev +/-... as I understand it..

Destiny..

I'm sure Klaus will give you he benefit of his wealth of experience soon but in the meantime you could try this ....

If you just take a spot light reading of shutter speed using the f-number and ISO to be used right next to the brightest and darkest areas and compare the two values you can work it out

Say you got 1/2000 right by the sunny window in your example and 1/4 under the sofa (just guesses) then you would have a ratio of 500:1 in exposures (as 1/4 divided by 1/2000).

The only tricky bit is knowing what power of 2 gives 500 (2 to the power n = 500) You can look this up but it is 9 (2 to the 9 = 512) and this gives the total EV range required

Knowing you need 9 EV altogether you can choose 9 bracketed at 1 ev, 6 at 1.5 ev etc etc

best
Martin


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:00 am 
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Hi Martin..

I am still working out features of my HDR software installed on my VR Drive.. My D800 has an inbuilt light meter which is really handy.. I have going to take a few test shots to work out the best shutter speeds and ev values.. One thing is certain for me, the hdr option in Photomatix allows me to achieve a better stitch in APG.. I have no idea why.... Perhaps the pixel are more defined..

Destiny...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:00 am 
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Destiny wrote:
The more bracketed images the less halo around objects which can look horrible..

Halos are not related to the numbers of exposures. They are ONLY related to wrong settings.

Destiny wrote:
One thing interests me.. Klaus suggest to make the steps even as I understand it..

What else?

Destiny wrote:
However, the HDR software allows for huge flexibility in this..

What do you mean in detail?

Destiny wrote:
The think is.. To achive hdr, you need at least 1ev +/-... as I understand it..

Less than 1EV doesn´t make much sense. 1EV is good with at least 5 or 7 steps. 3 steps @2EV in most cases are sufficient.
The examples i linked were shot with 3 steps @2EV and JPG. 3 JPG combinbed to 1 TIFF is a good average solution.

Klaus

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Cool Klaus,

Now I only need my cameramaker (Olympus, not related to the greek god of the same name) to update the OM-D to give the inbuild bracketing the flexibility it needs :) or upgrade (or better crossgrade to a Canon 5DII) since in order to do 3 2 I need 5 1.....and Des 3 steps 2 EV is 4 EV not 6EV, but you knew that, didn't you.

-2EV--0--+2EV

in my case:

-2EV--1EV--0EV-+1EV-+2EV.....so have 12.3 EV (see DxO and think what you want) + 4 = 16.3EV....

so lets count:

1/8000 = 1
1/4000 = 2
1/2000 = 3
1/1000 = 4
1/500 = 5
1/250 = 6
1/125 = 7
1/60 = 8
1/30 = 9
1/15 = 10
1/8 = 11
1/4 = 12
1/2 = 13
1 = 14
2 = 15
4 = 16

In principle everything ranging from 1/8000 till 4 seconds should be well lit (or at least have the possibility of being well lit). But for HDR related question maybe sheck the Photomatix handbook, it's nicely made and as much fun to read as the New York Phone Directory.

http://www.hdr-photography.com/doc/manual/PhotomatixPro42Manual_Win.pdf

Greets, Ed.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:44 pm 
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Tomorrow, i am going to use all those settings Ed.. its late now... ;( run out of time again...

Destiny...

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Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:54 pm 
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Artisan New wrote:
Cool Klaus,

Now I only need my cameramaker (Olympus, not related to the greek god of the same name) to update the OM-D to give the inbuild bracketing the flexibility it needs :) or upgrade (or better crossgrade to a Canon 5DII) since in order to do 3 2 I need 5 1.....and Des 3 steps 2 EV is 4 EV not 6EV, but you knew that, didn't you.

-2EV--0--+2EV

in my case:

-2EV--1EV--0EV-+1EV-+2EV.....so have 12.3 EV (see DxO and think what you want) + 4 = 16.3EV....

so lets count:

1/8000 = 1
1/4000 = 2
1/2000 = 3
1/1000 = 4
1/500 = 5
1/250 = 6
1/125 = 7
1/60 = 8
1/30 = 9
1/15 = 10
1/8 = 11
1/4 = 12
1/2 = 13
1 = 14
2 = 15
4 = 16

In principle everything ranging from 1/8000 till 4 seconds should be well lit (or at least have the possibility of being well lit). But for HDR related question maybe sheck the Photomatix handbook, it's nicely made and as much fun to read as the New York Phone Directory.

http://www.hdr-photography.com/doc/manual/PhotomatixPro42Manual_Win.pdf

Greets, Ed.

?????

Klaus

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:23 pm 
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marzipano wrote:
Knowing you need 9 EV altogether you can choose 9 bracketed at 1 ev, 6 at 1.5 ev etc etc

Martin - the point isn´t the number of brackets. The point is where to start:

starting at the shortest time/brightest point and become longer step by step or starting at the longest time/darkest point and become shorter step by step
or starting at a time in the middle and go --/0/++.

The problem with starting in the middle (--/0/++) is to measure the middle value correctly. That´s a matter guessing rather than a matter of precision.

So i definitely suggest to measure the highlights and start there or to measure the shadows and start there.

In terms of highlights wash out rather quickly i myself prefer to start at the highlights. Doing some test-exposures quickly show you the best value for
the highlights to get them fully correct.

Start here - even with 3 steps of 2EV you will be ok then if you use RAW. JPG wouldn´t do good in that case

Starting on the same value doing 7 or 9 steps @1 or 1.5EV will do it smoother - you don´t need RAW necessarily then.

If you decide to use RAW: DO NOT simply put them into the stitcher - process the RAWs first in a RAW decoder like Photoshop, Lightroom, Aperture or PhaseOne.
Use Photomatix AFTER that - and THEN APG.

btw: i also suggest to edit JPGs first before HDR/tonemapping them and saving the mapped images as TIFFs for stitching.
Of course this means more effort - whether it pays off or not you must decide yourself.

Seeing it levelheaded: i mean it definitely pays.

Klaus

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Last edited by klausesser on Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:42 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
Yes, but did it not have xeon processor or what ever the are called....I want to buy a round bucket with lots of RAM. ...

Destiny

Count on 2500 us dollars for the basic version and double that for a 128 GB RAM version.

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I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:25 am 
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I tested out indexing my brightest area of the room, ie window but found that I had to do too much editing of the exposure in raw. I found out that the HDR software on VR Drive does not work like that.... I have take its index reference from the mediam light in the room.... the sofeware then works the rest out automatically.... I just have to add the number of shots, fstop and the steps...

Destiny

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:59 am 
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To be honest, I really do not like the idea of going from RAW to jpg and then to TIF.. Its not really to me the way to go.. but I might be wrong..

Destiny...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:09 am 
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APG is getting better but I still have to work out features to improve it.. I need to understand some of the settings.. I must be missing something....

PTGui.. again perfect..

Destiny...





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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:27 am 
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Quote:
?????

Klaus

Well, Klaus I linked total EV's which is composed of camera EV + steps EV to the relative shuttertimes.....ranging from 1/8000 to 4 in 16 EV steps.....so the light of the darkest picture element is caught a relative speed of 1/4 of a second and the lightest brightets picture element is caught at an equivalent of 1/8000 of a second. Sort of explaining how that works......so you should shoot at around average speed. I use a spotmeter (on the camera) for that......and then its guesswork (called experience).

Greets, Ed.

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Des what you could try is to push the tripod into the alpha layer....then let Autopano Pro calculate its control points using the ordinary (middle layer of the HDR stack) images and replace them afterwards with the edited, HDR images, that might work.

Greets, Ed.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:48 am 
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Sorry Ed.. I am having a blond moment with that suggestion.. I have just whacked up the detection to high.. It took a lot longer and I was ... correction.. I was not hopeful... Anyway... I had a RMS of 2.26.. means nothing really.. Ghosting and bad stitching... Not what I would expect using a robot...

Destiny....



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Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)


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Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:55 pm
Posts: 4756
Location: Australia
We are slowly getting our heads around the the HDR software in my VR Drive.. Its really quite awesome... We are still working out some issues but we now understand so much more with this software.. And, Urs at RoundShot told me its getting some great updates soon too.. I realise that there is a RoundShot plugin in APG to add the xml file, but unfortunately with 9 bracketed shots, with my Mac, there is no way I can use it... :((

Destiny..

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Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)


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