APG 3+ back to basics.... HOW TO USE IT? 2  

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Destiny
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by Destiny » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:11 am

Ok.. My husband got me into Windows.. We have TeamView working we think... I have never used it and John cannot remember if he has.. He might have downloaded it to check it out.. If Its ok to use, we are good to go... I guess..

Destiny...

PS.. Can you convert my RAW to TIFs please. Select all and set to about +1 EV and save.. It was really dark when I captured the images....

D..


Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by HansKeesom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:30 am

No need to use windows bootcamp, you can work from your mac. You can download from the appstore "
2X Client RDP / Remote Desktop for OS X of 2X Software Ltd"

But if you prefer to work through teamviewer that is fine.

Am I correct to assume the 16 GB windows machine is good enough for you at the moment? I am already settings up an account for you with some storage that you can use for for example dropbox.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by HansKeesom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:48 am

ok our message crossed.

If you want to work from windows at your site, then there should be a programm called Remote Desktop connection. That is much easier then teamviewer.
Can you use that and fill in hanskeesom.xs4all.nl and user Destiny to see if something cames up? Password I will send in private once ready setting up your account
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by Destiny » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:00 am

Well yes I think it will be ok.. I really do not use windows but I know window xp and 7 a bit.. Never used windows 8..

I will be a fish out of water, but I I need is APG.. All I really want to do is play about with the sliders and see what I can achieve with fusion.... One thing I am confused with is the RAW images... I am sure their is a BUG... YES BUGGGGGGGG... with this... For it to go pink means there is some kind of colour recognition issue.... It might be my images but I doubt it.. It might be worth loading the RAW too just to see a final result.. Its not the stitching I am worried about.. just the fusion for now...

Destiny...
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by Destiny » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:01 am

I will try 2X Client RDP first... I am checking it out now.....

Let you know...

Destiny..
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by HansKeesom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:12 am

sended private mail with all information. Go ahead and mail me how things are going. find me on skype for textchat
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by Destiny » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:45 am

Well.. we worked it out... but... :(

Destiny...


Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by klausesser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:47 am

Destiny wrote:One thing I am confused with is the RAW images... I am sure their is a BUG... YES BUGGGGGGGG... with this...

Sorry for dropping in here again - maybe bothering you, sorry for that also:

The RAW-engine in APG (and other stitchers) is rather basic and you have no kind of settings for "developing" the RAWs. Afaik they integrated the free DCRaw-engine.
Among photographers it´s widely accepted standard to process the RAWs to TIFFs in a dedicated RAW-processor prior to stitching or using the TIFFs otherwise then.

RAWs are delicate to handle . . .

Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by HansKeesom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:49 am

Destiny wrote:Well.. we worked it out... but... :(

Destiny...

That is just a setting. Tempdrive is problably on C. should be on D. I will take your session and correct it.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by HansKeesom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:50 am

HansKeesom wrote:
Destiny wrote:Well.. we worked it out... but... :(

Destiny...

That is just a setting. Tempdrive is problably on C. should be on D. I will take your session and correct it.

Try again
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by HansKeesom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:52 am

klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:One thing I am confused with is the RAW images... I am sure their is a BUG... YES BUGGGGGGGG... with this...

Sorry for dropping in here again - maybe bothering you, sorry for that also:

The RAW-engine in APG (and other stitchers) is rather basic and you have no kind of settings for "developing" the RAWs. Afaik they integrated the free DCRaw-engine.
Among photographers it´s widely accepted standard to process the RAWs to TIFFs in a dedicated RAW-processor prior to stitching or using the TIFFs otherwise then.

RAWs are delicate to handle . . .

Klaus

I agree here, I am just to lazy to bother for most of my projects. We shoot jpg+RAW and most of time jpg is already good enough ;-) When in Dusseldorf I should take a course ;-)
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:27 pm

HansKeesom wrote:When in Dusseldorf I should take a course ;-)

Anytime ;):cool:

Klaus

PS:

"We shoot jpg+RAW and most of time jpg is already good enough ;-)"

I understand. Depends on the subject you shoot!

Shooting excessively bracketed - 9/12 or more brackets - i use also JPG.
No need for RAW at all with more than 5 brackets . . :D:cool:
Last edited by klausesser on Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by HansKeesom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:00 pm

klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:When in Dusseldorf I should take a course ;-)

Anytime ;):cool:

Klaus

PS:

"We shoot jpg+RAW and most of time jpg is already good enough ;-)"

I understand. Depends on the subject you shoot!

Shooting excessively bracketed - 9/12 or more brackets - i use also JPG.
No need for RAW at all with more than 5 brackets . . :D:cool:

It is just for the few times that a photographer made a mistake with the colorbalance that I like to have RAW as backup. Most photographers only send me the jpg's in dropbox and send RAW's only at my request
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by Destiny » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:44 pm

I rendered my test pano in RAW using Hans remote PC.. No issues with pink lights this time... Its all good ... a bit sluggish with using a remote access but its all working.... If I had heaps of RAM I can see APG would be a lot better....

This test proves that the fusion in APG is most defiantly RAM dependent, since its working on Hans PC.. I get to see the boarder go green, but still slow... However this is the biggest surprise.. The stitching with more RAM is also a heap better but still not perfect which might be my NP.. I have been really struggling with stitching in APG, it is clear to me now that RAM makes all the difference.. It must be this and it might explain why the stitching errors are at different places each time I detected and render..

The fusion process is still a very hit a miss process but I can see that with enough RAM you can achieve a desired result, however its not repeatable without effort. It is also clear now that without enough RAM, basically, you are wasting your time using the fusion process in APG.. Its simply does not work unless you make your images small enough to processs, but to find that optimal size will be a guess since APG does not provide any kind of indicator about system resources..

These images clearly show that you can use fusion in APG with adequate RAM.. They also so how well the pano can stitch with adequate RAM, however, the preview window shows it to be perfect yet the final render is not... I really do not like that at all.. The preview should indicate the true final render..

Those like me who have experienced issues with stitching Photomatix fused images in APG might consider that this issue is also RAM related.. This makes sense since those who do have adequate RAM, continue to argue that there is NO ISSUES with Photomatix processed images.. When in fact there is.. Those that argued and struggled to realise that others do have issues probably have adequate RAM to achieve a good result and therefore become confused at the comments relating to issues with stitching using Photomatix images in APG.

Thank you Hans for allowing me access to your RAM/system... I leant a lot about my issues..

My concern is.. The majority of users of APG would be the hobbyist and others.. They need to realise that a basic PC or iMac with only 4 gig of RAM is no where near adequate to produce a fused pano unless you reduce the size of your images, and you might also experience stitching errors/issues too whereas you probably achieve excellent results when using PTGui... Therefore, its not the APG software that appears to be the issue, but rather the lack of RAM and probably CPU power the users has at their disposal..

Destiny...






Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by klausesser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:55 pm

Artisan New wrote:P.S. Klaus I've had loads of problems with Photomatix images and have done some none-HDR, HDR tests and I've had the same results as Mrs. Destiny......

I have no doubt in what you say, Ed. The question is: what´s the reason for this issues? I very much doubt the reason is in the application.

Artisan New wrote:I found out that the blending algorithm does not like them and neither does the anti ghosting algorithm . .

Can you be more specific?

Artisan New wrote:(resulting in residual ghosts of the vertical pole of my Panosaurus, which disappear when I don't use HDR images). Now this is quite repeatable (using 2.6.4 of course) unfortunatly. My files where 16 bit processed files using DxO as my RAW converter, using 12 Mpixel files coming from a GF1 and 12 Mpixel and exposure fused using standard settings in Photomatix. And using the middle stack solo everything worked like a charm (using 16 bit Tiffs from DxO) and using the Photomatix files, ghosts (4 to 6 of them). So I isolated the problem and found out that content did not matter (a red carpet more or less uniform > ghosts, a kitchen scene > ghosts, in the garden > ghosts) and all worked fine when using only the middle set. So I downloaded a testversion of PTGui (after a mail from Australia indeed) and a red carpet -> no ghosts, a kitchen scene -> no ghosts.....etc.

Ed - i shoot in extremely different locations, i use 3 different ways to shoot: 15mm fisheye, 35mm, 85mm. This means 120mpx, 700mpx and 4Gpx. 6, 48 and 200 images.

I use 3, 7, 9, and 12 step-bracketing. I do that for about 6-7 years now.

I NEVER had ANY issue using Photomatix-processed images in APG.

I´m in contact with a lot of professional/commercial photographers from which many of them use Photomatix and APG too.
I was NEVER told one og them had issues using this combination.

As a matter of fact you and Destiny are the ONLY users i know on 4 continents reporting this issues.

I do not doubt about what you and Destiny tell about having this issue - i just wonder what´s happening.

There´s a difference in the way APG and PTGui do things. That´s widely known.

I had situations when APG did the job brilliantly and PTGui failed to meet my demands - and vice versa.

But i can state that APG´s latest versions - especially 3.0.7 - do a really great job in what i expect it to do:
stitching and rendering my many times rather complex panos. No matter which size they come and whether they
are pre-processed in Photomatix, Oloneo or so.

So: basing on my almost everyday-using of APG i cannot agree to what you and Destiny tell about "issues with
images from Photomatix"

Let´s do something: send me a set of 3x 6 or 7 images to process in Photomatix and i will stitch these images in APG
AFTER having processed them.

Put them into a folder, zip the folder and send me the URL for downloading the zip.

This way we can reveal what´s happening for you and Destiny with all this.

Deal?

Klaus

PS
saying:
"Let´s do something: send me a set of 3x 6 or 7 images to process in Photomatix and i will stitch these images in APG
AFTER having processed them. "

Of course i mean a set of images you have had issues with processing them before stitching! :cool:
Last edited by klausesser on Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by HansKeesom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:40 pm

Destiny wrote:I rendered my test pano in RAW using Hans remote PC.. No issues with pink lights this time... Its all good ... a bit sluggish with using a remote access but its all working.... If I had heaps of RAM I can see APG would be a lot better....
.........
My concern is.. The majority of users of APG would be the hobbyist and others.. They need to realise that a basic PC or iMac with only 4 gig of RAM is no where near adequate to produce a fused pano unless you reduce the size of your images, and you might also experience stitching errors/issues too whereas you probably achieve excellent results when using PTGui... Therefore, its not the APG software that appears to be the issue, but rather the lack of RAM and probably CPU power the users has at their disposal..

Destiny...

First of all, glad to be of help.

Happy to hear the sluggisness is only a bit considering you are at the other side of this planet. The editor will function only slowly. I am happy to do any editing for you.

While running I saw memory use never go over 7 GB. This is on a system that after starting up is already using 3 GB.

If I was having your iMac I would do memory upgrade to 8 GB i mentioned before. Maybe even add the backsidecover to host a superdrive. I think it will be running better then you experienced today.

Meanwhile feel free to continue using my system remotely. Just drop your files in dropbox and logon to my system the next day.
Last edited by HansKeesom on Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 4:13 pm

Destiny wrote:Therefore, its not the APG software that appears to be the issue, but rather the lack of RAM and probably CPU power the users has at their disposal..

:cool: finally.

Klaus
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by mediavets » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:41 pm

klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:Therefore, its not the APG software that appears to be the issue, but rather the lack of RAM and probably CPU power the users has at their disposal..

:cool: finally.

Klaus

I'd say it IS the APG software (that is the issue) when running on a lower spec. system, that's still above Kolor's declared min. spec.
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by klausesser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:48 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:Therefore, its not the APG software that appears to be the issue, but rather the lack of RAM and probably CPU power the users has at their disposal..

:cool: finally.

Klaus

I'd say it IS the APG software (that is the issue) when running on a lower spec. system, that's still above Kolor's declared min. spec.

Not in terms of a "bug".

best, Klaus

PS: i agree it would be wise that Kolor communicates several things better . . . . that´s definitely not a new demand . . :D:cool:

But there is a difference between somewhat "léger" information and a real a software bug.

btw. it must be obvious to everyone that rising demands means rising capabilities.
Last edited by klausesser on Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by HansKeesom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:52 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:Therefore, its not the APG software that appears to be the issue, but rather the lack of RAM and probably CPU power the users has at their disposal..

:cool: finally.

Klaus

I'd say it IS the APG software (that is the issue) when running on a lower spec. system, that's still above Kolor's declared min. spec.

Reminds me of the bus that got stuck in a tunnel. When the police suggested to deflate the tires, the driver responded with "That is not where the problem is" ;-)
Last edited by HansKeesom on Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:53 pm

HansKeesom wrote:
mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote::cool: finally.

Klaus

I'd say it IS the APG software (that is the issue) when running on a lower spec. system, that's still above Kolor's declared min. spec.

Reminds me of the bus that got stuck in a tunnel. When the police suggested to deflate the tires, the driver responded with "That is not where the problem is"

:D:D:cool::cool::cool:

best, Klaus
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by marzipano » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:33 pm

HansKeesom wrote:
mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote::cool: finally.

Klaus

I'd say it IS the APG software (that is the issue) when running on a lower spec. system, that's still above Kolor's declared min. spec.

Reminds me of the bus that got stuck in a tunnel. When the police suggested to deflate the tires, the driver responded with "That is not where the problem is" ;-)

:D

Even if I did upgrade to 8GB (min) in order to use APG fusion, I would still be faced with the the other problems in that part of the product to do with Alignment and Anti-Ghosting in a stack (or more specifically lack of them)

For the moment I will keep my 4GB, use APG for stitching but continue with Photomatix for fusion

In terms of jokes it is more like the tourist asking the local for directions:

Excuse me, do you know the way to the city centre
Well sir, if I was going there I wouldn't be starting from here

best
Martin

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by HansKeesom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:40 pm

marzipano wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
mediavets wrote:I'd say it IS the APG software (that is the issue) when running on a lower spec. system, that's still above Kolor's declared min. spec.

Reminds me of the bus that got stuck in a tunnel. When the police suggested to deflate the tires, the driver responded with "That is not where the problem is" ;-)

:D

Even if I did upgrade to 8GB (min) in order to use APG fusion, I would still be faced with the the other problems in that part of the product to do with Alignment and Anti-Ghosting in a stack (or more specifically lack of them)

For the moment I will keep my 4GB, use APG for stitching but continue with Photomatix for fusion

In terms of jokes it is more like the tourist asking the local for directions:

Excuse me, do you know the way to the city centre
Well sir, if I was going there I wouldn't be starting from here

best
Martin

Like the busdriver could have done, you choose to drive a smaller bus (panorama) through the smaller tunnels (your computer). That is an option of course which you are free to choose. I choose to take a route with larger tunnels so I can drive a bigger bus and transport everyone in one drive.

Today I showed Destiny the route through the big tunnel and I think she liked it.

About the yoke, I don't get it. Could be my english, could be the yoke. :-)
Last edited by HansKeesom on Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by marzipano » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:53 pm

HansKeesom wrote:
marzipano wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:Reminds me of the bus that got stuck in a tunnel. When the police suggested to deflate the tires, the driver responded with "That is not where the problem is" ;-)

:D

Even if I did upgrade to 8GB (min) in order to use APG fusion, I would still be faced with the the other problems in that part of the product to do with Alignment and Anti-Ghosting in a stack (or more specifically lack of them)

For the moment I will keep my 4GB, use APG for stitching but continue with Photomatix for fusion

In terms of jokes it is more like the tourist asking the local for directions:

Excuse me, do you know the way to the city centre
Well sir, if I was going there I wouldn't be starting from here

best
Martin

Like the busdriver could have done, you choose to drive a smaller bus (panorama) through the smaller tunnels (your computer). That is an option of course which you are free to choose. I choose to take a route with larger tunnels so I can drive a bigger bus and transport everyone in one drive.

Today I showed Destiny the route through the big tunnel and I think she liked it.

About the yoke, I don't get it. Could be my english, could be the yoke. :-)

It's the way I tell them

how about:

Entschuldigen Sie mich, kennst du den Weg in die Innenstadt
Nun Sir, wenn ich es wollte würde ich nicht von hier starten

best
Martin

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by HansKeesom » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:04 pm

hmmm the Netherlands is still no Bundesland....
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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