APG 3+ back to basics.... HOW TO USE IT? 2  

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Destiny
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APG 3+ back to basics.... HOW TO USE IT? 2

by Destiny » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:27 am

Oh darn it.. I tried to remove some of the images since there were too many.... and then lost the entire post... :rolleyes:

Sorry! :rolleyes:

Destiny...
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by Destiny » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:54 am

Using bracketed stack of 5 images with the Render sent to Fusion, I can move the Exposure Weights anywhere and it will absolutely no difference to the preview image.. The loader shows just for a second and is then gone.. I had a thought that it might still be doing its thing without the loader being visible but after on hour I am sure its just not working.. I am sure its a bug..

Destiny..


Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by Destiny » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:35 am

Ok.. I am a bit over trying to explain what is happening my end and posting up a heap of images.. So I made up a rather yucky video screen capture.. Sorry the quality is not the best but you can still see it..

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/APGexposureweights/DestinyAPG.html

You will see in real time, that the loader is appearing but then disappears.. I have left it do its thing just in case it working but the loader is not.. But this is not the case.. It just is not working as far as I can tell.. I have set the index priority to 3 and 2 and set the Render to Exposer..

Unless I am doing something way wrong.... But if not then its a bug.. or my Mac.. or my RAM... or or...

Destiny...
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by lovelace » Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:08 am

Just wondered if part of your problem is system resources.
May be a radical solution but perhaps you need to put together a new system.
The relatively low prices of the new generation of high end motherboards, CPUs, RAM, SSDs and GPUs allows anyone with a screwdriver and a little patience to put together a beast of a workstation for an outlay attractively comparative to that of the software they have invested in and the cost of their own time processing with it day to day.

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by Destiny » Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:41 am

Yes.. I think in part you are right.., perhaps my RAM is an issue.. Hans has already provided an option, but we are still worried about adding none Mac RAM to our iMac..

Its been a bit of a talking point only having 4 gig of RAM.. I would never go PC since I love using Mac.. Its the only thing stopping me from using my 50mm to capture a pano.. I had success in stitching too.. but again.. RAM was an issue..

Destiny..
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by Destiny » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:48 am

Ok.. I made a HD vid.. If you can be bothered to play this movie, its in real time so you can see all that I do.. Perhaps you can see what I am doing wrong.. I tried to show you editing of some of the control, including Exposer Weights and HDR... But as far as I can tell.., nothing I do changes my images.. Perhaps I am doing it all wrong.. At least doing it this way, its better than a heap of images..

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/APGexposureweights/APGfusionweights.html

Destiny..
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by lovelace » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:52 am

"....I would never go PC since I love using Mac....."
May I suggest that you are imposing a less than rational constraint upon your options?

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by Destiny » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:02 pm

Lets put it another way then.. All of my software is for MAC.. So if I were to go with the PC.. that cost would be the least of my worries...

Destiny..
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by klausesser » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:11 pm

Destiny wrote:Lets put it another way then.. All of my software is for MAC.. So if I were to go with the PC.. that cost would be the least of my worries...

Destiny..

Sorry to drop in here and bother you again ;) : first of all i´d suggest to close ALL other applications but APG. You even have PTGui running at the same time . .
and PS . . and Entourage and Preview. They´re ll active in the background - and use big part of your 4GB of RAM.

Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by HansKeesom » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:29 pm

Destiny wrote:Yes.. I think in part you are right.., perhaps my RAM is an issue.. Hans has already provided an option, but we are still worried about adding none Mac RAM to our iMac..

Its been a bit of a talking point only having 4 gig of RAM.. I would never go PC since I love using Mac.. Its the only thing stopping me from using my 50mm to capture a pano.. I had success in stitching too.. but again.. RAM was an issue..

Destiny..

I have a 64 GB mac running over here which you can access using teamviewer. Wanna play?
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by Destiny » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:31 pm

Its a valid point.. and I normally do close everything.. So I did that and rebooted.. It made a slight difference to the speed APG detected I think but Exposure Weights etc still do not work..

Destiny..
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by Destiny » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:37 pm

Emmm.. I hope you are wearing led underwear.. "Radiation".. ;) I would but not tonight.. I have to get ready for work in the morning.. You might wonder why this text is green.. ... its just my envy glowing..

Destiny..


HansKeesom wrote:I have a 64 GB mac running over here which you can access using teamviewer. Wanna play?
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by HansKeesom » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:38 pm

Destiny wrote:Emmm.. I hope you are wearing led underwear.. "Radiation".. ;) I would but not tonight.. I have to get ready for work in the morning.. You might wonder why this text is green.. ... its just my envy glowing..

Destiny..


HansKeesom wrote:
Destiny wrote:Yes.. I think in part you are right.., perhaps my RAM is an issue.. Hans has already provided an option, but we are still worried about adding none Mac RAM to our iMac..

Its been a bit of a talking point only having 4 gig of RAM.. I would never go PC since I love using Mac.. Its the only thing stopping me from using my 50mm to capture a pano.. I had success in stitching too.. but again.. RAM was an issue..

Destiny..

I have a 64 GB mac running over here which you can access using teamviewer. Wanna play?


Don't be, I just offered you to use it remotely for your projects.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:36 pm

HansKeesom wrote:I have a 64 GB mac running over here

Which model?

Klaus
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by HansKeesom » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:33 pm

klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:I have a 64 GB mac running over here

Which model?

Klaus

;-) It is a virtual machine running on my windows 7 workstation. This way I can get used a bit to the mac interface before making an big investment.


Model Name: Mac
Model Identifier: VMware7,1
Processor Speed: 3.86 GHz
Number of Processors: 1-4
Total Number of Cores: 1-8
L2 Cache (per Processor): 256 KB
L3 Cache (per Processor): 12 MB
Memory: 8-64 GB

It does a geekbench of 15009 which is only a bit behind a 2009 Macpro

Good thing is that I can always copy to another faster workstation and have a faster mac ;-)
Last edited by HansKeesom on Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, Hans Keesom
I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: 25 euro or less, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you. Free TB of Dropbox space when you have more then 250 euro business a year.

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by klausesser » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:11 pm

Destiny wrote:but Exposure Weights etc still do not work..

It works very subtle - hardly recognizable sometimes - but it works.
I used it several times - but it´s not reliably reproducable and clumsy.

Not comparable at all to Photomatix - which definitely is one of the most valuable production-tools for achieving excellent results.

Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by Destiny » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:50 am

Not so subtle in APG 2.6, since you can see it change.. However, the results are not transferred over to the pano.. I never know where I am with it..

This movie is in real time, you might want to fast track it once streamed in.. You can see APG is frustrating to use, waiting waiting waiting.. and I cannot even save the final settings as a preset to use with any other pano captured at the same location.. So I have to start from the beginning every time.. And yes.. compared with Photomatix.. well quite frankly, there is no comparison... Photomatix works and works well.. If I need to use my own presets, I can.. Just load the images and walk away..., or do something else on my my Mac while waiting since the software is not system hungry either..

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/APGexposureweights/APG26.html

I have come to the conclusion that I personally cannot use APG with Fusion or HD until I update my Mac.. Its just doesn't work.. I will stick with Photomatix images with APG V3, since I need to use it for LivePano..

Now I just need to work out my stitching issues..

Destiny...
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by marzipano » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:00 am

Destiny wrote:Using bracketed stack of 5 images with the Render sent to Fusion, I can move the Exposure Weights anywhere and it will absolutely no difference to the preview image.. The loader shows just for a second and is then gone.. I had a thought that it might still be doing its thing without the loader being visible but after on hour I am sure its just not working.. I am sure its a bug..

Destiny..

I can replicate that bug on my PC too but only with (8 bit) tif files. If I load exactly the same pano in jpg files instead it works fine although quite slowly (30 secs)

I was using the same images as you (60 altogether)

I have a 4GB HP Quad core EliteBook 8730W running WIn7

Like you spotted, the processing wheel flashes on briefly (< 1/2 sec) then goes out again

I 'm 90% this is a bug for the issues list !

best
Martin

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by Destiny » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:34 am

Well Martin.. At least now I do not feel so stupid.. I am sure that somethings very wrong...

The thing is.. There has been a lot of features directly created in APG devoted to outputting LDR (Exposure Fusion) and HDR (High Dynamic Rang images..

Firstly Stacking the images and Indexing them, selecting All Stacks then selecting Fusion or HD output.. Then in Editing moving those sliders which is very very awkward, extremely time consuming and very very very hit and miss... And at the end of all that, it doesn't work very well at all..
Quit honestly, I find the entire process annoying to use, and for me.. quite upsetting since I really wanted it to work..

Destiny..
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by klausesser » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:14 pm

marzipano wrote:I 'm 90% this is a bug for the issues list !

So: i finally tested it 10minutes ago for seeing what´s up with your "bug" thing: nothing, sorry.
(really just a test)

It might disappoint you, folks: it works ok. Just be aware it has nothing to do with HDR.
It´s fusioning.
Fusioning is rather different from HDR.

Klaus

PS: i really don´t understand why nobody from Kolor drops in when a theme is getting THAT confuse.




Last edited by klausesser on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Destiny » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:31 pm

Well off course "Fusion is very different from HDR.".. One is High Dynamic Rang and the other is Low Dynamic Rang.. I have not even touched HDR in APG, apart from showing that the controls do nothing my end.. For your test to works suggest for one, my issue is RAM and CPU related.. Martin has 4GIG RAM too... But there might well be other underpinning reasons why my Mac fails to work with APG..

The thing is, most users of APG are going to be Hobbyist and Other.. Those that use APG for work related projects will probably have a work station that will be able to cope better with APG's need for CPU and RAM.. APG 3.0.7 I read is suggested to work differently since Kolor have acknowledged that APG has issues. This might resolve my issue.. Since APG is mostly sold to Hobbyist, I would suggest to Kolor to test using APG on work stations that would normally be owned by a Hobbyist. The point I am making, if it doesn't work for the 'Majority' of users (Hobbyist and Other) then alternatives will need to be found by them..

Destiny...

PS.. Nice images..
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by klausesser » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:53 pm

Destiny wrote:Well off course "Fusion is very different from HDR.".. One is High Dynamic Rang and the other is Low Dynamic Rang..

Not quite correct: BOTH extend the dynamic-range dramatically. But they use different technologies to achieve it.
HDR was invented for different purposes: you can use HDR for Image Based Lighting with all advantages of the data-type.

Fusioning is thought for enhacing the dynamic range in "usual" photography.

You can use HDR for "usual" photography also - but you need to apply tonemapping to do so. HDR isn´t displayable on usual
hardware.

In the end the results are almost comparable: the dynamic range in a photography gets very much higher BOTH ways.

Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:49 pm

Destiny wrote:PS.. Nice images..

thanks! It´s an interesting project: Mies von der Rohe designed the bungalow for a golf-club in Krefeld in the ´20th.
There are hand-drawn scetches made by himself in the "Museum of Modern Arts" in New York.

In Krefeld grand-grandchild of a fabricant Mies built some houses and factories for around 1920-30 borrowed the
drawings from MOMA and together with some archticts a 1:1 model was built and placed exactly there where the
bungalow was thought to stand.

www.360impressions.de/Mies

They kept strictly to Mies´ drawings - where he didn´t finish details they didn´t finish them in the model also . . so this REALLY is a 1:1 Model :cool:

I like it very much.

Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by marzipano » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:04 pm

klausesser wrote:
marzipano wrote:I 'm 90% this is a bug for the issues list !

So: i finally tested it 10minutes ago for seeing what´s up with your "bug" thing: nothing, sorry.
(really just a test)

It might disappoint you, folks: it works ok. Just be aware it has nothing to do with HDR.
It´s fusioning.
Fusioning is rather different from HDR.

Klaus

PS: i really don´t understand why nobody from Kolor drops in when a theme is getting THAT confuse.

Thanks Klauss - we have both got exactly the same issue and although we are both using the same input data we are not sharing the same hallucinations !

I did a couple of further tests and can now add that this does not start to happen until (in my case) there are over 50 tif files in the panorama set (this was a bracketed set of 5x12 images)

In fact I also spotted that the problem starts before you start to adjust the lighter/darker sliders. Normally when you select the EF button, the border round the image changes from red to green but in the case of this problem it stays on red and the processing wheel stops after just a fraction of a second.

So you need to test on more than 50 (8-bit) tif images to see if the problem can be replicated. It is possibly a constraint issue based on the local pc spec I suppose

best
Martin

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by klausesser » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:06 pm

marzipano wrote:
klausesser wrote:
marzipano wrote:I 'm 90% this is a bug for the issues list !

So: i finally tested it 10minutes ago for seeing what´s up with your "bug" thing: nothing, sorry.
(really just a test)

It might disappoint you, folks: it works ok. Just be aware it has nothing to do with HDR.
It´s fusioning.
Fusioning is rather different from HDR.

Klaus

PS: i really don´t understand why nobody from Kolor drops in when a theme is getting THAT confuse.

Thanks Klauss - we have both got exactly the same issue and although we are both using the same input data we are not sharing the same hallucinations !

I did a couple of further tests and can now add that this does not start to happen until (in my case) there are over 50 tif files in the panorama set (this was a bracketed set of 5x12 images)

In fact I also spotted that the problem starts before you start to adjust the lighter/darker sliders. Normally when you select the EF button, the border round the image changes from red to green but in the case of this problem it stays on red and the processing wheel stops after just a fraction of a second.

So you need to test on more than 50 (8-bit) tif images to see if the problem can be replicated. It is possibly a constraint issue based on the local pc spec I suppose

best
Martin

Martin - it might be related simply to the amount of RAM and also to the graphic-engine which is in use. BUT: this is not what we can call an application´s bug. It´s nothing but clear that you need to use appropriate hardware when you want do do more than average things.

When you keep using 4GB RAM than it´s nothing but logic your possibilities are somewhat limited.

Stubbornly stating it MUST be "a bug" in the application i mean seems somewhat short-sighted, sorry.

I´ll give it a try using 120 images in the evening - bet there´s no difference . . i worked it out some months ago but prefered to stick to my best-proven workflow.

Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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