Ver 2.0 Always "Any day now"  

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Duffer
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Ver 2.0 Always "Any day now"

by Duffer » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:51 am

Ive been holding off on building this huge tour for the past 4 weeks as the talk about the new V2 of Panotour has been floating around for a LONG time.. Would be really nice if some one could give us a bit of a time line.. It would be super frustrating if I spent time building this tour in 1.8 (about 70 nodes!!) only to have 2.0 come out the day I finish...

1) When will the update come out? I get that its hard to say firm dates, but at least a "Not in the next 6 weeks" would be helpfull...

2) Will tours built in 1.8 be able to open and update to 2.0??

thanks

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by HansKeesom » Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:27 am

Duffer wrote:Ive been holding off on building this huge tour for the past 4 weeks as the talk about the new V2 of Panotour has been floating around for a LONG time.. Would be really nice if some one could give us a bit of a time line.. It would be super frustrating if I spent time building this tour in 1.8 (about 70 nodes!!) only to have 2.0 come out the day I finish...

1) When will the update come out? I get that its hard to say firm dates, but at least a "Not in the next 6 weeks" would be helpfull...

2) Will tours built in 1.8 be able to open and update to 2.0??

thanks

Why do you think the time spend in 1.8 will be waisted. 2.0 will have many extra option but the basics will likely be the same. Buikd and deliver the project now and when 2.0 is there you can always add some op the new options. Not likely that time is waisted. Don't make your client wait.

1. It will be there when it is ready, don't hold your breath.
2. What do you think? Of course!
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by leifs » Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:19 pm

HansKeesom wrote:1. It will be there when it is ready, don't hold your breath.

I support this :)

I guess there will be
alpha1, alpha2
beta1, beta2, beta3
RC1, RC2
next summer there will be PT 2.00 (with some bugs)
at last there will be PT 2.01 and smooth sailing :)

I don't mind being wrong about the timeline.
It would be nice if Kolor said something about it.

Leif
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by Duffer » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:33 pm

Well for one As I said this is a HUGE tour, and I want to deliver the best product I can to my client for the $ they are spending. There has been some talk that V2 will have "Node Clusters" that I can add to my map.. Although exactly what this is and how it works is still un known, but in a 70 node tour that is in essence a bunch of smaller tours of different cabins or rooms in a lodge on a big property, I could see this being a big deal.. Now, if I wait a month or even 2, to deliver a better product, both myself and the client are happy to do that as there is benifit. But if that drags out to 6 months or a year then no it does not make sence.. the time involvved is the big factor and that Is ALL I am asking here... please give us a general time frame, we wont hold you to it in any legal sence and we get that Kolor needs to make sure the product is done and up to there standards frist and formost.

Hans, regarding #2 and your responce of "Of coarse, what do you think".. I dont think there is an "of coarse" involved here at all. Kolor has not said it would or it would not.. There are many things that I woudl htink would be "Of coarse" that are just not so.. For example just today.. I add a map to my tour, add all my markers to it, set them up all how I like (Lucky for me this is not the 70 node tour!) ... Then I notice there are some things I want to change on my map.. So I save a new file in photoshop, and tell the map extra to load my map file.. Now "Of coarse" this woudl just replace the map background image and not delete all my markers... Well guess what.. Wrong. So assuming "Of coarse" is not a wise coarse of action.. (PS Kolor please fix that "bug"!)

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by Gund » Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:01 pm

70 nodes - can you show any example in the net how it should look?
Probably it can be done with 1.8 and some extra coding.
Anyway most of the time would go on shooting and stitching panos.
Build a tour now and add necessary changes when V2 comes out. Tell the client - that a tour can be upgraded in the future.

If you need to change the map and you don't want to lose all the hotspots you've already created just overwrite the file you used as a map and reload the tour. The hotspots will be on your new picture. Although they may be misplaced if you change the size of the map (but it is not so hard to put them back into place)

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by HansKeesom » Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:55 pm

Duffer wrote:Well for one As I said this is a HUGE tour, and I want to deliver the best product I can to my client for the $ they are spending. There has been some talk that V2 will have "Node Clusters" that I can add to my map.. Although exactly what this is and how it works is still un known, but in a 70 node tour that is in essence a bunch of smaller tours of different cabins or rooms in a lodge on a big property, I could see this being a big deal.. Now, if I wait a month or even 2, to deliver a better product, both myself and the client are happy to do that as there is benifit. But if that drags out to 6 months or a year then no it does not make sence.. the time involvved is the big factor and that Is ALL I am asking here... please give us a general time frame, we wont hold you to it in any legal sence and we get that Kolor needs to make sure the product is done and up to there standards frist and formost.

Hans, regarding #2 and your responce of "Of coarse, what do you think".. I dont think there is an "of coarse" involved here at all. Kolor has not said it would or it would not.. There are many things that I woudl htink would be "Of coarse" that are just not so.. For example just today.. I add a map to my tour, add all my markers to it, set them up all how I like (Lucky for me this is not the 70 node tour!) ... Then I notice there are some things I want to change on my map.. So I save a new file in photoshop, and tell the map extra to load my map file.. Now "Of coarse" this woudl just replace the map background image and not delete all my markers... Well guess what.. Wrong. So assuming "Of coarse" is not a wise coarse of action.. (PS Kolor please fix that "bug"!)

My "of course" refered only referred to your second question "2) Will tours built in 1.8 be able to open and update to 2.0??"

Some more philosofical reflections on this : In any profession one has to do the job with the tools one has at that moment. Not the tools one does not have or one will have in the future. Being professional means being skilled with these tools, knowing how and when to use them. When things go wrong, despite of these skills, there is no point in blaming the tools, the tools one does not have or the ones one will have in the future. The best things is to do more reflection on one skills with the tools ............ or decide it is time for a different tool ;-).
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by gkaefer » Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:39 pm

I hope I'm wrong, but...

look at 2.5 and 2.6 autopano files opening in autopano 3.0... crippled & partly working.

if you compare sourcecode of current krpano tours with panotour 1.8 code (having in mind that panotour 2.0 will be official GUI for krpano now) I assume panotour will change most of html sourcecode and I fear it will be easier to cut old ties and finally panotour 2 will not be able to open old panotour 1.x project files.

Georg

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by HansKeesom » Sun May 12, 2013 5:33 am

gkaefer wrote:I hope I'm wrong, but...

look at 2.5 and 2.6 autopano files opening in autopano 3.0... crippled & partly working.

if you compare sourcecode of current krpano tours with panotour 1.8 code (having in mind that panotour 2.0 will be official GUI for krpano now) I assume panotour will change most of html sourcecode and I fear it will be easier to cut old ties and finally panotour 2 will not be able to open old panotour 1.x project files.

Georg

html sourcecode is the output of panotour, not the input. Panotourprojectfiles are input.
What happened to autopano 3.0 wasn't the best thing off course, a rather nasty mistake I don't expect they will repeat with panotour sourcefiles.

Meanwhile, we are still waiting......
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by leifs » Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:51 pm

leifs wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:1. It will be there when it is ready, don't hold your breath.

I support this :)

I guess there will be
alpha1, alpha2
beta1, beta2, beta3
RC1, RC2
next summer there will be PT 2.00 (with some bugs)
at last there will be PT 2.01 and smooth sailing :)

I don't mind being wrong about the timeline.
It would be nice if Kolor said something about it.

Leif

I was wrong. I missed it with 1/2 year. Now it's "next summer" and it is in "private beta".
My next guess: 2.01 for christmas 2013

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by HansKeesom » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:07 pm

leifs wrote:
leifs wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:1. It will be there when it is ready, don't hold your breath.

I support this :)

I guess there will be
alpha1, alpha2
beta1, beta2, beta3
RC1, RC2
next summer there will be PT 2.00 (with some bugs)
at last there will be PT 2.01 and smooth sailing :)

I don't mind being wrong about the timeline.
It would be nice if Kolor said something about it.

Leif

I was wrong. I missed it with 1/2 year. Now it's "next summer" and it is in "private beta".
My next guess: 2.01 for christmas 2013

leifs

What?????? NOOOOOOOOOO. So this $%#@^&$#@ 360 Video thing makes us wait longer for a simple thing like Android compatibility?
Regards, Hans Keesom
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by leifs » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:32 pm

HansKeesom wrote:What?????? NOOOOOOOOOO. So this $%#@^&$#@ 360 Video thing makes us wait longer for a simple thing like Android compatibility?

I agree! I'm not interested in the video-thing at all, and it seems to me that Kolor has used it's resources on video instead of it's existing APG and APT.
Go to http://www.kolor.com/ and it's obvious what's the headliner: video.
Imo this is a gross miscalculation. The number of customers that will buy 6 Hero3 cameras and record spherical videos will be minute. The fancy few.
I'm disappointed but not surprised !

leifs
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by mediavets » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:08 am

Tours created with 1.8 would remain editable with 1.8, of course - even IF 2.x is not backwards compatible with 1.8.

I can't see how switching from PTP to a different tour authoring program would help you with tours created with 1.8 IF it turns out that PTP 2.x is not backwards compatible with 1.8. I don't know of any other VT authoring tool that could open and edit PTP 1.8 tours.
Last edited by mediavets on Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by AlexandreJ » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:58 am

leifs wrote:What?????? NOOOOOOOOOO. So this $%#@^&$#@ 360 Video thing makes us wait longer for a simple thing like Android compatibility?

At Kolor, we have separated team. Everything around 360video is done by one team, PTP2 by another team, autopano, by some other.
So doing 360video didn't change in any form the delay of PTP2.
Please, have a look at the presentation we did yesterday, it hightlight a lot of the features and if you can read behing the lines, it should reflect the huge work that has been done.

Question: Opening a PTP1.8 project ? Yes, you can. It will keep the VR, the hotspots and only that. Everything else is totally different, so will be ignored. The good news : you have presets in PTP2 ( look a the presentation for concept understanding ). So open PTP1.8 project, VR and hostpots and links preserved. You can decide to create groups, reorganize, and then, APPLY preset and 2D layout of the tour will be done.
This is the workflow.

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by klausesser » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:12 am

mediavets wrote:Tours created with 1.8 would remain editable with 1.8, of course - even IF 2.x is not backwards compatible with 1.8.

I can't see how switching from PTP to a different tour authoring program would help you with tours created with 1.8 IF it turns out that PTP 2.x is not backwards compatible with 1.8. I don't know of any other VT authoring tool that could open and edit PTP 1.8 tours.

Anyway - i think would be a VERY bad idea giving up compatibility and not being able to open a tour i made some months ago in PTP 2.0 for adding new features or editing old ones.
That´s like as Photoshop wouldn´t open and edit images from some months before the new release . . . .

Doing panos as a hobby it doesn´t need to shake you at all i guess - but having done tours for clients is completely different! I must be able to keep the look and the behavior of new tours exactly like it was before, i must be able to update "old" tours to a new look without needing them to rebuild from scratch.

Producing photography, movie/video and/or interactive content like panoramas or 360° videos professionally/commercially NEEDS to be able keeping a look over years to match a clients CI now and for some time in the future.
Rebuilding tours from scratch costs very much time andm effort - and so it is very expensive at least for the producer: me.

I´m in constant touch with many other producers all over the world - and i can taell you: they´re not amused about such things.

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:20 am

AlexandreJ wrote:Question: Opening a PTP1.8 project ? Yes, you can. It will keep the VR, the hotspots and only that. Everything else is totally different, so will be ignored. The good news : you have presets in PTP2 ( look a the presentation for concept understanding ). So open PTP1.8 project, VR and hostpots and links preserved. You can decide to create groups, reorganize, and then, APPLY preset and 2D layout of the tour will be done.
This is the workflow.

Hey Alex!

Thanks for that information! Does it mean i can keep the desing of a tour exactly (!) as it was before but adding new features which only v2 provides?

I mean: otherwise i need to use 1.8 for a time in future - but can´t participate in developing features . . like multires on tablets for example which KRPano announced day before.

As i said to Andrew: as a commercial producer i NEED to be sure my work does what the clients payed for still in times to come . . . :cool:

best to you, Klaus

PS:.

saying "keep the desing" i mean the behavior of the hotspots - like transitions and so on and the look of the buttons.
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by klausesser » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:34 am

mediavets wrote:I don't know of any other VT authoring tool that could open and edit PTP 1.8 tours.

Well - a lot of collegues use KRPano only to build their tours. No poblem. But of course i woul definitly prefer to use PTP - no question.
But i would also definitely hate to build all tours new from scratch for having them look as the new ones.

To have a major brake in the client´s CI here just because of an application-update on the producer´s side isn´t acceptable from professional/commercial point of view.

As is said before: imagine Photoshop makes you need to take new photos because it refuses to let you edit ones you made three months ago to the same look as they were then . . . :D:cool:

best, Klaus
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by sasha_che » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:27 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:I don't know of any other VT authoring tool that could open and edit PTP 1.8 tours.

Well - a lot of collegues use KRPano only to build their tours. No poblem. But of course i woul definitly prefer to use PTP - no question.
But i would also definitely hate to build all tours new from scratch for having them look as the new ones.

To have a major brake in the client´s CI here just because of an application-update on the producer´s side isn´t acceptable from professional/commercial point of view.

As is said before: imagine Photoshop makes you need to take new photos because it refuses to let you edit ones you made three months ago to the same look as they were then . . . :D:cool:

best, Klaus

You have a good point but also dont forget that 2d images are not bcked up by any code..its just an image, where PTP tours are images backed up by code, and since there is a new code implementation i see how older project were not be able to work....altho if im not mistaken Alexandre said in the presentation that PTP 2.0 will recognize the 1.8 projects and their hotspots, but nothing else - so i guess its workable

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by Destiny » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:53 am

Its all very workable Max... All the pano images and hotspot will be there which can be ordered via Grouping for a much better layout and to facilitate the workflow on big Tours.. The bonus is.. when you save your Tour you can then view it on an Android 4.+ since you will then have a working HTML5 version and unlike the current 1.8 iPad build, the hotspots will be as they are on your Tour and not change to those yuck animated rings you currently see on iPads.. and.. you can also add some extra stuff to bring it into line with any new themes/features you would like to add to your Tour to make it look according to your needs..

Destiny..

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by klausesser » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:07 pm

sasha_che wrote:. . Alexandre said in the presentation that PTP 2.0 will recognize the 1.8 projects and their hotspots, but nothing else - so i guess its workable

Yes. The but the question is what that means in detail: what about transitions and other xml controlled behavior? Given i re-do a tour in 2.0: can i keep the once-made transitions, pans, tilts, zooms and so on?

Or do i need to re-do it ALL? With a tour having 35 nodes and carefully by manual xml-editing designed movabilty in each node that´s a lot of work, you know . . which i must do
without getting payed for - just because the application is updated?? That would not be really clever under commercial aspects!

I mean Kolor would NEED to take those things in account instead of ignoring it - otherwise it would be not what i call professional.

So i´m curious about for whom Kolor designs their applications in the end? Skipping compatibility would mean they have NOT in mind professional/commercial producers needing reliable compatibility for a certain time.
Again: that would NOT be what i call professional.

I know very well that all this wouldn´t be a big issue for hobbyists - but for users like me and i´m sure some others who also need to keep a certain look and behavior in their tours it WOULD BE an issue.

Klaus
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by mediavets » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:23 pm

klausesser wrote:
sasha_che wrote:. . Alexandre said in the presentation that PTP 2.0 will recognize the 1.8 projects and their hotspots, but nothing else - so i guess its workable

Yes. The but the question is what that means in detail: what about transitions and other xml controlled behavior? Given i re-do a tour in 2.0: can i keep the once-made transitions, pans, tilts, zooms and so on?

Or do i need to re-do it ALL? With a tour having 35 nodes and carefully by manual xml-editing designed movabilty in each node that´s a lot of work, you know . . which i must do
without getting payed for - just because the application is updated?? That would not be really clever under commercial aspects!

I mean Kolor would NEED to take those things in account instead of ignoring it - otherwise it would be not what i call professional.

So i´m curious about for whom Kolor designs their applications in the end? Skipping compatibility would mean they have NOT in mind professional/commercial producers needing reliable compatibility for a certain time.
Again: that would NOT be what i call professional.

I know very well that all this wouldn´t be a big issue for hobbyists - but for users like me and i´m sure some others who also need to keep a certain look and behavior in their tours it WOULD BE an issue.

Klaus

I think you'll probably have to stick to PTP 1.8 for updating your existing tours, but perhaps use PTP 2.x for new tours.

The code generated by PTP 2.x is quite different from that created by PTP 1.8.

I suspect that what you - and perhaps many others - would really be most happy with, at least in the short term, is an updated version of 1.8 that offered the HTML5 compatibility of the latest version of krpano? I think Kolor could relatively easily create such a version but I doubt they will.
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by klausesser » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:03 pm

mediavets wrote:I suspect that what you - and perhaps many others - would really be most happy with, at least in the short term, is an updated version of 1.8 that offered the HTML5 compatibility of the latest version of krpano? I think Kolor could relatively easily create such a version . . but I doubt they will.

This would exactly be what i and other commercial users would *need* to have!!
If they don´t i bet many producers would definitely be very angry and think about whether to rely on Kolor in the future. No commercial producer will keep using a product which updates without backward-compatibility.
So at least we need an update of 1.8 to the actual KRPano Android compatibility for having a kind of careful transition to a completely new apearance.

As said: for hobbyists/ameteurs this all isn´t a problem - they can do what they want relying exclusively on themselves and have no NEED to keep any certain look. For commercial/professional users it definitely is a problem - we have clients who have incorporated our tours in their CI = "Corporate Indentity". That means they don´t want changing look and behavior in their tours. The look and behaviors NEED to be consistent - and IF they change it must happen carefully and takes some time.

Regarding this i strongly ask for an update of 1.8 to the actualized KRPano-state.

best, Klaus
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by Destiny » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:11 pm

I don't understand what your issue is Klaus.. You do not have to have anything to do with PTP V2, so you do not have to keep running it down for not being compatible with your old Tours and suggesting that it is unprofessional on Kolor's part by not facilitating your needs, when in fact they are.. If you need to update your Tours to keep uniformity, then just use PTP V1.8 for those situations. PTP V2 uses HTML5 and Flash to generate its Tours... I cannot create a Tour to work on my Samsung Note with Android 4+ using PTP V1.8.. But it works really really well on my Samsung using PTP V2.. I am sure there would be MANY professionals who would be jumping for joy..

You have the best of both words.. As Andrew has already stated, "I think you'll probably have to stick to PTP 1.8 for updating your existing tours, but perhaps use PTP 2.x for new tours." If you in fact need to create a NEW Tour with the same Themes as you currently do, then do it using PTP V2.. You will then have the benefit of advising your clients that YOUR Tours work on both Androids and iPads.. The visual results can look exactly the same as you have now..

You seem to be going on with this issue without any understanding on what PTP V2 has to offer you.. I suggest you wait and see before making comments, particularly those that are not beneficial to those forum members who are very very excited about PTP V2 of which there are many..

Destiny..

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mediavets
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by mediavets » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:38 pm

Destiny wrote:I don't understand what your issue is Klaus.. You do not have to have anything to do with PTP V2, so you do not have to keep running it down for not being compatible with your old Tours and suggesting that it is unprofessional on Kolor's part by not facilitating your needs, when in fact they are.. If you need to update your Tours to keep uniformity, then just use PTP V1.8 for those situations...

The only additional feature that some users want immediately from PTP 1.8 is the level of HTML5 compatiblity available with the latest version of krpano.

Some users of 1.8 - like Klaus - have created tours that incorporate extra custom coding.

PTP 2.x may be able to open PTP 1.8 tours but it will not preserve custom coding and the coding structure genareted by PTP 2.x is quite diffeernt from that created by 1.8 so it may not be easy for people to reccreate that custom coding functionality.

This class of users may very well like the new features offered by PTP 2.x for new tours, but they also have a need to preserve the look-n-feel of existing tours while still updating them to satisfy their clients
Last edited by mediavets on Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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klausesser
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by klausesser » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:45 pm

Destiny wrote:I don't understand what your issue is Klaus..

;):cool: Well - you´re not a really busy producer having done many complex tours for relevant clients, are you.

Destiny wrote:You do not have to have anything to do with PTP V2, so you do not have to keep running it down

I didn´t. Not at all. I´m very curious and anticipating great things. No question.

Destiny wrote:You seem to be going on with this issue without any understanding on what PTP V2 has to offer you..

And you think it´s up to you to judge my deficit of "understanding on what PTP V2 has to offer me"?

Destiny wrote:I suggest you wait and see before making comments, particularly those that are not beneficial to those forum members who are very very excited about PTP V2 of which there are many..

You mean we all must be giving ONLY hip-happy comments and hide any sort of concern? Again, Destiny: WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

Klaus
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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Destiny
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by Destiny » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:50 pm

:rolleyes:

klausesser wrote:
Destiny wrote:I don't understand what your issue is Klaus..

;):cool: Well - you´re not a really busy producer having done many complex tours for relevant clients, are you.

Destiny wrote:You do not have to have anything to do with PTP V2, so you do not have to keep running it down

I didn´t. Not at all. I´m very curious and anticipating great things. No question.

Destiny wrote:You seem to be going on with this issue without any understanding on what PTP V2 has to offer you..

And you think it´s up to you to judge my deficit of "understanding on what PTP V2 has to offer me"?

Destiny wrote:I suggest you wait and see before making comments, particularly those that are not beneficial to those forum members who are very very excited about PTP V2 of which there are many..

You mean we all must be giving ONLY hip-happy comments and hide any sort of concern? Again, Destiny: WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?

Klaus

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