2.5 RC Fusion works fine (example from M. Freeman book)  

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2.5 RC Fusion works fine (example from M. Freeman book)

by GURL » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:37 am

I stitched an example of 3 x 7 bracketed image from the CD in Michael Freeman book Mastering HDR Photography: Combining Technology and Artistry to Create High Dynamic Range Images (page 120) using Autopano Fusion: :cool:






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by AlexandreJ » Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:04 am

Good result, no ?

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by GURL » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:40 am

AlexandreJ wrote:Good result, no ?

:cool: :cool: :cool: Excellent!

The preview was closer to the final result than in my screen captures because I used PS Shadow/highlight tool to add some "HDR look" and match M. Freeman results...
He uses these source images to show that one can do tone-mapping before stitching or stitch and then do tone-mapping (his prefered method.) Autopano allows a third method where stitching and bracketing fusion are done using a single application and where the preview avoids having to guess how the final result will look.

I used 3 stacks with Detect links in one stack level option and For a stack detect control points option. Rendering as a 16bit TIFF was fast. Using 16bit format allows fine tuning by using an image post-processor but Autopano Fusion adjustements (Exposure target, Dark enhancement, Light enhancement) and Levels tool (black point, white point, Gamma) should do the job in most cases.
Last edited by GURL on Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by fma38 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:56 am

Very interesting! Thanks for the feedback, Georges.

This is one of the great new feature of APG :)
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by GURL » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:29 pm

Famous Stanford Memorial church examples from Paul Debevec as rendered by 2.5 RC Fusion

Paul Debevec: http://ict.debevec.org/~debevec/
Stanford Memorial church examples: http://www.google.fr/images?client=opera&rls=fr&q=memorial%20church%20%22debevec%22&oe=utf-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=fr&tab=wi




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by GURL » Sat Jan 08, 2011 12:08 pm

More exemples from M. Freeman's book CD...






















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by klausesser » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:07 pm

Hey Georges!

Very well done! To be honest: i´m fighting with that for quite a time - don´t get any suitable result . . .
I used different bracketing sets - from 3 to 9 - and it doesn´t work in any way.
Therefore i still use to make HDR first and stitch afterwards.

Alexandre showed me some fine things at the Photokina - but i can´t reproduce it . . .

best, Klaus

P.S.: is there any description how to use "Exposure Fusion Settings"? I tried it and it´s just producing garbage . .
. .
Last edited by klausesser on Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:29 pm

As a matter of fact i use a Promote Control for some of my jobs at the moment. I´m shooting bracketed series of around 9 steps using my 5D2.
I´d like very much to handle it the way you showed . . . .

But: HOW?? I tried several times and - as i said before - got some bullshitty results. No way to go. So i still use to HDR them first and stitch afterwards.

Why doesn´t any useful description exist? Alex showed it to me at the Photokina and i was very impressed - but couldn´t reproduce it yet.

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:18 pm

GURL wrote:I used 3 stacks with Detect links in one stack level option and For a stack detect control points option. Rendering as a 16bit TIFF was fast. Using 16bit format allows fine tuning by using an image post-processor but Autopano Fusion adjustements (Exposure target, Dark enhancement, Light enhancement) and Levels tool (black point, white point, Gamma) should do the job in most cases.

Georges - can you tell about your overall settings?

As Examples:

What about "Panorama Layers -->>regroup iayers"?
What about "Color correction -->> cc by layer"?

Do this settings affect HDR processing in APG?

I didn´t understand that "stack" thing at all. Where´s an explanation about it?

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:49 pm

One more thing ;):cool: : there STILL is no option - which would be Mac-like - to break a process when you realize having made a mistake starting it.
Doing an optimization can take long when working with HDR sets - as i´m just trying to do.
My machine isn´t really weak - i use a MacPro, 2 Xenon CPU @3GHz each and 8 cores, 16GB RAM and 6TB disk.
But having a bracketed series of 9 steps for a 8-shot-sphere and running optimization takes about 10min and again 10min for re-optimize.

And produces a total mess - real ****.

I have to kill the whole application and to start again from scratch to do my work.
That´s not what i expect from an advanced application . .

So i´ll go back to use PM first before stitching and definitely forget about processing HDR in APG.

Maybe the problem is ME - but without ANY usable description about what is what in the app and how too use the may-be very advanced features are nice for people having lots of free time to spend evaluating the app . . . which i don´t have.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Sun Jan 09, 2011 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by GURL » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:38 am

Why this is not easy to explain:
- bugs tend to disappear but how it works is still changing from one release to the next.
- there is a new tool (stacks) and some new options to help detect, optimize and organize bracketed source images into layers
- no tone-mapping tool is anymore availlable for HDR (using HDR color mode implies rendering a 32 bits file *.exr, *.hdr and perhaps *.kro)
- on the contrary the new Fusion tool (to be found in the pano editor) must be used when the Fusion option will be selected as the rendering option (to produce files like 8 bits JPEG or 16 bits TIFF.)

Using stacks for Fusion or for HDR is not necessary but that helps.

Using layers is necessary for both Fusion and HDR. [I didn't test that for HDR]

Using the Fusion tool (3 sliders in Exposure Fusion Settings sub-window) is useful to adjust a fusion pano (preview is rather good, using the Levels tool can help, too.)

Rendering:
- Simple and Anti-ghost Blending presets are to be used for standard panos (8bit or 16bit).
- Exposure Fusion Blending preset is to be used for Fusion panos (8bit or 16bit).
- HDR Blending preset is to be used for HDR files (32bit only).

Code: Select all
             Bracketing |  Stacks  |  Layers  |  NONE      LDR       HDR   |   8bit   16bit   32bit   
                        |          |          |                            |
Standard        no      |    no    |  yes/no  |  yes/no    yes/no    no    |   yes    yes     no
                        |          |          |                            |
Fusion          yes     |  yes/no  |  yes     |  yes(1)    yes(2)    no    |   yes    yes     no
                        |          |          |                            |
HDR             yes     |  yes/no  |  yes     |  yes(1)    yes(2)    yes   |   no     no      yes

(1) when source images in a layer share the same exposure
(2) when source images in a layer do not share the same exposure (which is unusual and want a yellow anchor in each layer)

Some screen captures and explanations will follow but it should be clear that standard panos, Fusion panos and HDR files imply different "Autopano workflows"...
Last edited by GURL on Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by GURL » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:06 am

NO STACK

Here is an example where I didn't use stacks:
- Many links were created and some are not very good (this is a real issue for spherical bracketed panos where a terrible amount of bad links are often created nest to zenith and nadir.)
- I will have to organize source images into layers manually (not a real problem for 9 source images only.)






Last edited by GURL on Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by GURL » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:22 am

USING STACKS

For the same source images:
- 3 stacks are created (for the left side, the center and the right side of the pano)
- a not over-exposed nor under-exposed image is selected as the top-most image in each stack (using Index of main picture slider*.)
- Detect link in one stack level option was selected to ask for "horizontal links" in the top-most source images only (corresponding images are automatically included by Autopano into the N_0 layer)
- For a stack detect control points option is selected because I'm not sure the camera was not slightly moved while shotting (when a rigid tripod, a strong panohead and a remote triger are used, the For a stack use hard links option is preferable.)
- Global RMS is better and the amount of links is smaller
- one layer per exposure value is automaticaly created.
___
* : where 0 corresponds to the first image, 1 to second image, etc (in alphabetical order, I presume.)






Last edited by GURL on Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by GURL » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 am

HDR

As no tone-mapping tool is available, Autopano HDR is now as easy as selecting the HDR color mode in the Editor window and the corresponding options in the Render window!

Tone mapping - the hard part, actually - is to be done using an other application like PS or Photomatix. The content of the resulting *.hdr or *.exr file is not printable nor could be displayed on an ordinary computer screen.

[I believe that the Automatic button in the Levels tool is to be used but didn't test that.]




Last edited by GURL on Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by GURL » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:48 am

EXPOSURE FUSION* in this post and the next one...

Exposure Fusion could be seen as a particular kind of "one-step tone-mapping from several layers" as this is a method which, by selecting pixels in one or more layers and blending them into the resulting image, can produce the final panorama during the stitching step and a good preview of this final panorama in the Editor window. Another main advantage of fusion is to avoid the (often deprecated) "HDR look" (that is, haloes along high-contrast boundaries.)

One can attempt to launch the renderer without using any of the available fusion settings like in the following screen capture [I wonder if this is enough when bracketing steps are centered on the normal exposure - still to be tested] but this don't always work very well.

___
* : or should we name it EXPOSURES FUSION...


Last edited by GURL on Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:01 pm

Hey Georges!

Many, many thanks for your effort!
That fusion-thing is what irritates me a bit. I´m used to tonemapping very well by using Photomatix for years.
The problem is to never have a look over the whole picture when finding settings by processing a set of 3 or 9 images to find a preset - but it works fine usually.
So i understand that the use of APG´s features cannot be a substitution for Photomatix, right? It´s a fusion-tool?

What is exactly the meaning of "stacks" here? What´s the exact function of the new "fusion settings"?

best to you and thanks again for your patience, Klaus
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by GURL » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:19 pm

klausesser wrote:What is exactly the meaning of "stacks" here?

STACKS

A given stack must include all pictures which were shot without moving the panohead.

Stacks are useful to avoid too many links being created and to decide where links are to be created or not. Stacks are used to automatically create layers (number of layers = number of pictures in a stack.)

If you prefer not to use stacks don't use them but then you should take care to place each picture in a layer which corresponds to its exposure.


Last edited by GURL on Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by GURL » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:20 pm

klausesser wrote:What´s the exact function of the new "fusion settings"?

FUSION SETTINGS

This example is a proof that a giant gap between middle exposure and darkest exposure will result in highlights problem because some intermediary values in the chandelier (or you-name-it powerful lighting) were not recorded. Anyways the 3 sliders in Fusion settings windows work the same...










Last edited by GURL on Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:33 pm

GURL wrote:. . . to avoid the (often deprecated) "HDR look" (that is, haloes along high-contrast boundaries.)

But that just happens when it´s used the wrong way!

What i experienced so far: using bracketed sets when stitching usually leads to issues with control points: the very dark and the very light exposure often show differing CPs in the same shot. They might be optimized - but that can takes SOME time when i have a bracketed series of 9 or 12 . . . or more :cool:

So i guess processing the bracketed sets first and stitching non-bracketed sets would still be preferable.

best, Klaus
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by klausesser » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:46 pm

GURL wrote:As no tone-mapping tool is available, Autopano HDR is now as easy as selecting the HDR color mode in the Editor window and the corresponding options in the Render window!

Tone mapping - the hard part, actually - is to be done using an other application like PS or Photomatix. The content of the resulting *.hdr or *.exr file is not printable nor could be displayed on an ordinary computer screen.

Ok - so there´s no editing for HDR in APG!? I thought "Fusion Settings" might be a way. But as i understand that´s for "fusioning" only and has nothing to do with HDR or/and tonemapping/compressing.
I guess fusioning should be good enough with sets of 9 or 12 bracketed steps - but there´s the problem with CPs in very light and very dark exposures . . using a manual head there´s no positioning file . .

best, Klaus
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by mediavets » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:08 pm

klausesser wrote:I guess fusioning should be good enough with sets of 9 or 12 bracketed steps - but there´s the problem with CPs in very light and very dark exposures . . using a manual head there´s no positioning file . .

best, Klaus

And, as I understand it, that's where stacks - a stack is a set of images shot at the same shooting position, typically bracketed exposures - are useful.

You can choose which of the bracketed exposures in a stack is used to detect CPs and then force all the other bracketed images in the stack to use the same positioning.
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by klausesser » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:46 pm

mediavets wrote:And, as I understand it, that's where stacks - a stack is a set of images shot at the same shooting position, typically bracketed exposures - are useful.

You can choose which of the bracketed exposures in a stack is used to detect CPs and then force all the other bracketed images in the stack to use the same positioning.

Hi Andrew!

Basically i know of course what a stack is :cool: - but how to use it in APG didn´t come clear to me yet. Sounds good to use one exposure in the stack to find CPs and use these CPs for all others too - but: how? Did you ever do it using 9 or 12 exposures per position?
I spent some years now experimenting with APP/APG - no problem, i liked it. But actually my time for experiments definitely is very limited . . i need a well working application with transparent descriptions/tutorials/handbook how to use it for serious work. Fumbling around half a day just to find out which button or slider is relevant for what and how to use a feature insn´t really productive at all . . .

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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