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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:02 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
Alexandre,

Following the final releases of V2.5 of Autopano Pro and Autopano Giga, and V1.5 of Panotour and Panotour Pro I'm struggling to understand the new pricing structure for Kolor products.

Autopano Pro 2.5 is the same price as earlier versions, 99 Euros plus tax.

Autopano Giga 2.5 is the same prices as earlier versions, 199 Euros plus tax, BUT it no longer includes Autopano Tour and Panotour, Autopano Tour's replacement, is now marketed as a separate product at 99 Euros plus tax. So effectively APG 2.5 now costs 99 Euros plus tax more than earlier versions of APG.

Panotour is priced at 99 Euros plus tax. It is functioanlly roughly equivalent to Autopano Tour which used to be a no cost bundle with Autopano Giga.

Panotour Pro is priced at 299 Euros plus tax. It is functionally roughly equivalent to Autopano Tour (which used to be a no cost bundle with APG) + krpano (a licence for the krpano viewer and krpano tools is 90 Euros plus tax); it has an 'embedded' licences for the krpano viewer and the krpano iDevice compatibility stuff but doesn't include a licence for krpano tools.

What is Kolor's rationale for what is effectively a significant price rise for Autopano Giga from V2.0.9 to V2.5, and what appears on the face of it to be a very high price for Panotour Pro 1.5? I often respond to questions about Kolor products on the panoguide.com forum and I would like to be able to offer some informed explanation/rationale for Kolor's new product pricing.

Is there any sort of 'upgrade' path for those (probably using non-Kolor stitching products, such as PTGui) with krpano licences who may wish to purchase Panotour or Panotour Pro?

What is the situation now for those with a APG 2.0.9 licence who were a free licence key for Panotour?

What is the situation now for those with a APG 2.0.9 licence and a krpano licence who were offered a free licence key for Panotour Pro?

Does Kolor no longer offer the krpano licence from the Kolor Web shop?

I agree with MediaVets that the new product structure and pricing contains some stricking inconsistencies.

Firstly there is now little if any difference between AutoPanoPro and AutoPanoGiga, what exactly do you get for the extra 100 Euros?

I had costed a purchase for our college of AutoPanoGiga +KRPano at 279 Euros per license, today that is now 479 Euro for the new package. That is now outside of my planned budget and even AutoPanoPro And PanoTour Pro is 398 Euros. So why not discount on this bundle? Do you offer an educational discount that would help me buy what we had originally budgeted for?

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Last edited by BrianLR on Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:04 pm 
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tived wrote:
Ouch - Panotour Pro ....199 euro!!! i suppose its better then 299 euro's :-)

Henrik

better sell some pano's then

So that 199 Euros is the fee for PTP when you are upgrading from what to what?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:22 pm 
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BTW : for schools, we have educational prices. Contact us to learn about them.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:33 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
I think it's too costly for most hobbyists, and hobbyists make up the majority of the pano products market.

You mean the same hobbyists who buy cameras and lenses for some thousands of bucks? ;) Software is a tool like a camera, a lens and so on i mean.
Though it surely hurts when an aplication becomes definitely more expensive - but it provides more features also and: you wouldn´t get a good fisheye lens for 200.-€ . . . .
We expect more and more features to be integrated in a software - but we don´t like to pay a higher price for more and more advanced features on the other hand.

A "light" and cheap version would surely be fine - but then users will definitely complain about missing features which are only in the "big" version . . kind of dilemma here.

The problem in my eyes is: APP/G and APT were rather cheap related to their features. APG and PTP growed massive in features and Kolor`s staff also growed. Both produces aditional costs.

That´s how i see it. :cool:

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:11 pm 
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BrianLR wrote:
Firstly there is now little if any difference between AutoPanoPro and AutoPanoGiga, what exactly do you get for the extra 100 Euros?

The filters only exist for APG.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:21 pm 
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snaefell wrote:
BrianLR wrote:
Firstly there is now little if any difference between AutoPanoPro and AutoPanoGiga, what exactly do you get for the extra 100 Euros?

The filters only exist for APG.

I am not sure what you mean by the 'filters'?

The new website is still a work in progress with many links not working and conflciting information which is different or not available in the English from the French version. One case inpoint is at the end of the English Autopano Pro Features page (which in French looks different from the English and identical to the Autopano Giga Features page) it says :

> Check the complete list of image-stitching features in Autopano Pro (link not working)
> Need more features? Image-stitching, virtual tours, extended HDR features, better motorized heads support... discover Autopano Giga. (link not working and incorrect (i.e No Virtual Tours, extended HDR? in both?)
> Autopano Pro or Autopano Giga? Compare and choose yours. (link not working).

In summary, there needs to be a clear comparison of the differences between AutoPano Pro and AutoPano Giga


The old comparison table for Autopano Pro vs Autopano Giga 2.0 is as follows:

Software comparison

Autopano Pro 2.0 Autopano Giga 2.0 Autopano Giga 2.0 + KrPano Unlimited license

Image stitching features
-----------------------
Automatic creation of professional-quality panoramas
> List of the common stitching features Yes Yes Yes
Creation of gigapixel panoramas and support of motorized panoramic heads Yes
partially Yes Yes
Extended features for HDR and Fusion* No Yes Yes
Creation of templates for automated detection and stitching No Yes Yes
Workspace saving No Yes Yes

Virtual tour creation features
----------------------------
Creation of professional-quality virtual tours (including hotspot editing and customization options, with 1200-pixel export limitation per cube face) No Yes Yes
Additional features for virtual tour creation (including multi-resolution, plug-ins, XML export, other projection modes). Find out more. No No Yes

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Last edited by BrianLR on Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:33 pm 
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BrianLR wrote:
I am not sure what you mean by the 'filters'?

Sorry for being unclear. I think plugin fits better. There is the possibility to use some plugins before you render your pano. Neutralhazer to remove dust is one example. Get yourself a trialversion of APG and try it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:49 pm 
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@BrianLR:
You can now find the comparison between APP and APG on this page: http://www.kolor.com/autopano-pro-giga-comparison.html

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:00 pm 
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Rami wrote:
@BrianLR:
You can now find the comparison between APP and APG on this page: http://www.kolor.com/autopano-pro-giga-comparison.html

Is there a comparison between Panotour and Panotour Pro?

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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:19 pm 
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The chart is not online yet but here are the main features of Panotour Pro that are not in Panotour:

- iPhone®/iPad® export
- Adding of customized graphics templates
- Cube faces import/export
- Gigapixel images support
- Embedding of sounds and videos
- XML file export
- Little planet effect

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:22 pm 
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About the pricing: at first Autopano Giga was supposed to only include a tool to convert panoramas into .SWF files (this is what was announced during the Autopano Meeting preceding the release of APG). Following many requests from the users, we constantly improved Autopano Tour and added more and more features to make virtual tour creation easy and avoid programming tasks. Thus it became a real piece of software on its own and we should have made the separation with Autopano Giga earlier. To clarify our product range and because many users wanted to buy only the virtual tour part of APG, we finally separated the software and applied a price that, from our point of view, reflects quite well the value of the software. Many users even find it cheap with regard to what it enables them to produce. The prices are also in accordance with the results of the questionnaire we proposed you to complete in late 2009. As Klaus pointed out, we also have to finance the development costs and all future developments that will benefit to all users. We also want to be fair with our existing and loyal users; this is why the update to version 2.5 of APP/APG and Panotour or Panotour Pro is free.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:38 pm 
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Rami wrote:
The chart is not online yet but here are the main features of Panotour Pro that are not in Panotour:

- iPhone®/iPad® export
- Adding of customized graphics templates
- Cube faces import/export
- Gigapixel images support
- Embedding of sounds and videos
- XML file export
- Little planet effect

As I read the features description on the Web site it isn't strictly 'Gigapixel images support' in fact it's 'support for images with more than 200 megapixels'.

Is that correct?

If so, is the 200 megapixel limit in Panotour that precise and is it applicable to both equirectangular and non-equirectangular images?

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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:13 pm 
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Rami wrote:
About the pricing: at first Autopano Giga was supposed to only include a tool to convert panoramas into .SWF files (this is what was announced during the Autopano Meeting preceding the release of APG). Following many requests from the users, we constantly improved Autopano Tour and added more and more features to make virtual tour creation easy and avoid programming tasks. Thus it became a real piece of software on its own and we should have made the separation with Autopano Giga earlier. To clarify our product range and because many users wanted to buy only the virtual tour part of APG, we finally separated the software and applied a price that, from our point of view, reflects quite well the value of the software. Many users even find it cheap with regard to what it enables them to produce. The prices are also in accordance with the results of the questionnaire we proposed you to complete in late 2009. As Klaus pointed out, we also have to finance the development costs and all future developments that will benefit to all users. We also want to be fair with our existing and loyal users; this is why the update to version 2.5 of APP/APG and Panotour or Panotour Pro is free.

Do you know the expression 'like a red rag to a bull'...? ;)

I agree that the separation should have been made earlier - Autopano Tour should never have been bundled with APG in my opinion (although until relatively recently APT perhaps didn't offer enough functionality to be considered a marketable standalone product). I suggested that it should be unbundled, or also made available as a separate product, back at that time because it seemed obvious that there would be many users of non-Kolor stitching programs who might wish to use a GUI front end VT authoring tool for krpano. I imagine that there are more potential customers for such a product among those who don't (and won't) use Kolor's stitching products than among those that do. People tend to acquire stitching software before acquiring VT authoring tools, and my observation is that it seems to be rare for people to switch to another stitcher.

You claim that "Many users even find it cheap with regard to what it enables them to produce" - I don't know quite how you can substantiate this claim when the software has only been available for sale (at these prices) since February 2 - just 48 hours.

Regardless of whether you consider the price reasonable the fact remains that the price of APG+Panotour Pro effectively went up by more than 200 Euros plus tax overnight (enough to pay for a Nodal Ninja 3 pano head). Prior to the release of APG 2.5, 279 Euros plus tax got you APG 2.x, PTP 1.5 and a krpano licence (199 Euros plus tax for APG 2.x and 80 Euros for the krpano licence which covered the krpano viewer and krpanotools). After the release of APG 2.5 the same capability will cost 569 Euros plus tax (479 Euros plus tax for the APG 2.5 and PTP 1.5 bundle plus 90 Euros for the krpano licence required if you to use krpanotools).

Klaus is professional photographer and these prices may well seem 'cheap' to this category of customer - but as a hobbyist I wouldn't consider Panotour Pro 'cheap' at 299 Euros plus tax. And I'm sure there are far more hobbyists in the market than there are professional photographers. Perhaps the hobbysists will all be satisfied with Panotour at 99 Euros plus tax despite its limited and ugly navigation templates.

You also claim that "The prices are also in accordance with the results of the questionnaire we proposed you to complete in late 2009." I guess we have to take your word for that since as far as I know you haven't published the results - but I know that my response was not in accord with these prices.

You say "we also have to finance the development costs and all future developments that will benefit to all users." That's true but you can't price software on a cost-plus basis with no regard for competitive products on the market (well I guess you can but it's asking for trouble! That's why the British ship building, aircraft manufacturing and car making industries all collapsed). And I find the idea that one should price a product on the basis of how much better it will then be in future somewhat unusual - that's like saying I should pay over the odds for a 2011 model of the Ford Mondeo because then the 201x model will be so much better. I'd not be buying capability today but the promise of superior capability at some unknown point in the future.

Panotour and Panotour Pro are good products, and easy to use, but I don't feel you have yet made a good case for their price points, particularly not for Panotour Pro with the huge 'gap' between the price of Panotour and Panotour Pro.

I think it's particularly disappointing that Panotour Pro doesn't include a licence for krpanotools . I preferred the Autopano Tour 'system' where one could enable additional functionality by registering krpano licences from within Autopano Tour, but I expect that approach might provide less income for Kolor. On the other hand a more completely realised plug-in style architecture could have permitted the incremental addition or enabling of capability with plug-ins, paid for and free, from Kolor, krpano and other third-party developers.

There's also little incentive (the discount on bundles is trivial) for new customers in the pano scene to choose APP/APG over rival stitching products when considering Panotour or Panotour Pro for VT authoring.

It appears that Panotour Pro has been positioned directly against EasyPano's Tourweaver Standard Edition. If indeed that's the case why not just say so and explain why?

I guess we should all be grateful that it wasn't positioned against the Tourweaver Professional Edition?

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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:45 am 
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mediavets wrote:
that's like saying I should pay over the odds for a 2011 model of the Ford Mondeo because then the 2013 model will be so much better. I'd not be buying capability today but the promise of superior capability at some unknown point in the future.

In fact you do so when buying a product. The price you pay reflects ongoing product enhancement also. A company which doesn´t include that into price-calculation will fail.
On the other hand nowadays users often are alpha and beta-testers . . . sometimes for quite a long time . . :P:cool: and help getting an application to a point.
This way they´re on the front of evolution :cool:


best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:51 am 
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mediavets wrote:
I think it's particulary disappointing that Panotour Pro doesn't include a licence for krpanotools.

I agree here. In fact using PTP needs not only KRPanotools but also need some basic KRPanotools-skills. So it shouldn´t need an extra license.
But i guess that´s a legal regulation.

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:55 pm 
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What do you need in KRPanotools ? ( a feature in which Panotour Pro failed to answer apparently )

BTW : could we make this discussion somewhere else ?
I prefer to leave announcement to announces ...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:28 pm 
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AlexandreJ wrote:
What do you need in KRPanotools ? ( a feature in which Panotour Pro failed to answer apparently )

BTW : could we make this discussion somewhere else ?
I prefer to leave announcement to announces ...

I started a new topic for this discussion: it's entitled "Do Panotour Pro users also need a krpanotools licence?":
http://www.autopano.net/forum/t11185-do-panotour-pro-users-also-need-a-krpanotools-licence

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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Rami wrote:
@BrianLR:
You can now find the comparison between APP and APG on this page: http://www.kolor.com/autopano-pro-giga-comparison.html

Rami, Thanks for the link to the comparison chart, now I am beginning to see the light! What are the maximum number of images and the maximum Gigapixel image size possible in APG 2.5 and PanoTourPro 1.5?

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:09 am 
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I'd like to thank the Kolor developers for making Autopano 2.5 Pro/Giga available at no extra charge for registered users of version 2.0.

I hadn't expected this, and it amounts to an extreme act of generosity bearing in mind how much new code and new mathematics has gone into the upgrade.

This doesn't happen elsewhere. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:31 am 
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BrianLR wrote:
What are the maximum number of images and the maximum Gigapixel image size possible in APG 2.5 and PanoTourPro 1.5?

I would say it depends now on the computer. We have report from customer about 10,000 images successful stitches.

tjhb wrote:
I'd like to thank the Kolor developers for making Autopano 2.5 Pro/Giga available at no extra charge for registered users of version 2.0.
I hadn't expected this, and it amounts to an extreme act of generosity bearing in mind how much new code and new mathematics has gone into the upgrade.
This doesn't happen elsewhere. Thanks.

Thanks you really much. I'm glad to read that :)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:58 pm 
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tjhb wrote:
I'd like to thank the Kolor developers for making Autopano 2.5 Pro/Giga available at no extra charge for registered users of version 2.0.

I hadn't expected this, and it amounts to an extreme act of generosity bearing in mind how much new code and new mathematics has gone into the upgrade.

This doesn't happen elsewhere. Thanks.

I support this!

best, Klaus

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:54 pm 
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AlexandreJ wrote:
BrianLR wrote:
What are the maximum number of images and the maximum Gigapixel image size possible in APG 2.5 and PanoTourPro 1.5?

I would say it depends now on the computer. We have report from customer about 10,000 images successful stitches.

What are the limiting factors in play here. Is there a maximum number of images set in the APG code? What computer parameters limit this, is it RAM and/or HDD Temp file space and if so is there a formulae for calcuating what is needed to support a certain number of images, perhaps this could be displayed in the settings. For example currently APG says the maximum number of images in a line that can be processed according to the available memory, before the system performance is hampered.


tjhb wrote:
I'd like to thank the Kolor developers for making Autopano 2.5 Pro/Giga available at no extra charge for registered users of version 2.0.
I hadn't expected this, and it amounts to an extreme act of generosity bearing in mind how much new code and new mathematics has gone into the upgrade.
This doesn't happen elsewhere. Thanks.

Thanks you really much. I'm glad to read that :)

Yes thanks to Kolor for giving existing APG 2.0 users the upgrade to 2.5 and PanoTour Pro 1.5, I am gald to see that you care about customers and value their loyalty.

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Last edited by BrianLR on Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:10 am 
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Dear Alexandre,

First - thanks for a great piece of software, this 2.5 seems to be exactly what I hoped it would be!

Secondly: I have AutoPanoPro 2.0 and would like to upgrade to AutoPanoGiga 2.5. However, when I lock into "my page" I only get the option to upgrade to AutoPanoGiga 2.0 and nothing else. It would be great to have the option to upgrade to the 2.5 version; even though the serial numbers are the same i feel that I should get the upgrade to the latest version which might be important for my future upgrade strategy. What to do?

Best regards,
Simon


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:15 pm 
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I have had the beta versions for a couple of weeks and they did not crash so all good.. So just done the latest download thing, nothing seems to have changed... Still looks great... I just wonder why it not shows in the About ptp as 1.5.1.. it says it 1.5.0 but the _RC has gone.. Same with apg, thats 2.5.0 I thought it was now 2.5.1... the _RC has gone with the new download so I am assuming its the latest version I have... What ever, I love the new version... I just wish I had an email telling me about the updated version... I am subscribed to the news letter but I never receive anything... :(

D

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:22 pm 
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oh and I forgot... YES to what tjhb & Klaus and others above say... Thank you kolor team from Destiny too... ;)

D

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Last edited by Destiny on Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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