[Papywizard v2] Open talk - general design, ideas...  

Everything you need to motorize your head
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BeeZed
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by BeeZed » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:40 pm

Hi Andrew,

I was guessing that the preset editor would mainly be a more user friendly GUI to make sure the preset templates are compliant. In a notepad situation, users might more easily add or delete some text that papywizard needs to parse the file. I would imagine that the server function would allow users to import and export directly from papywizard, rather than use a browser to download/upload. We should ask Frédéric. For me, and probably for you, it is not a must have feature.

I really haven't used the Orion for more than "exploration", so I cannot comment on preset based workflow, or the need to modify them in the field. As the software gets more feature rich, being able to change things without opening another program might be convenient.

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by mediavets » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:47 pm

BeeZed wrote:Hi Andrew,

I was guessing that the preset editor would mainly be a more user friendly GUI to make sure the preset templates are compliant. In a notepad situation, users might more easily add or delete some text that papywizard needs to parse the file. I would imagine that the server function would allow users to import and export directly from papywizard, rather than use a browser to download/upload. We should ask Frédéric. For me, and probably for you, it is not a must have feature.

I really haven't used the Orion for more than "exploration", so I cannot comment on preset based workflow, or the need to modify them in the field. As the software gets more feature rich, being able to change things without opening another program might be convenient.

I asked Frederic whether he had plans for a 'smart' preset generator but he said not:

http://www.autopano.net/forum/p36676-2009-01-11-15-29-25#p36676
Last edited by mediavets on Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by klausesser » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:58 pm

"Klaus,

Why not just take a panning shot with a video camera - what is it I don't get about what you describe doing with a still camera?"

A videocamera takes 25fps. That´s realtime - no timelapse. Youl´d need a videocamera equipped with a single-shot mode. Consumercams rarely provides that feature.
So you´d have a heck of work in a video-editor eliminating 24 of the 25fps to get one fps.
Besides a DSLR of course can make it in a FAR better quality.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Simplicity is the keynote of all true elegance. Coco Chanel

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by fma38 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:53 pm

About the preset editor, there a several possibilities, and I really need your feeling about this. But I agree it won't be a high priority.

About timelapse feature, we should find someone who is deeply involved in such technic, to see if Papywizard/Merlin can really be used as a full-features timelapse robot...
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by fma38 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:03 am

klausesser wrote:Besides a DSLR of course can make it in a FAR better quality.

And you can make an entire pano at each position (this will slow down the frame rate). The timer feature is close to that, except that you can't change the shooting direction (the center of the pano). That's what I plan to add, with a nice interface to build the trajectory.
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by mediavets » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:23 am

BeeZed wrote:Yes you get a movie, or a slide show as one scene fades into the next. If I was shooting sphericals, there would only be panning in the display, but i have seen a series where each capture is only a small section of the 360, and then the center of the view shifts to the right for the next time lapse "frame". So if I know I want to create a slow pan while showing 120 degrees of horizontal view, i can take a 5 frame pano every hour, or day, and shift 10 degrees, and take the next one.

BeeZed,

Thanks for the additional info.

As for the above example you could do that now in a workaround sort of way with the current intervalometer.

Just shoot a wider FOV pano that you need and shoot a pano every 'whatever interval' using the intervalometer (aka timer) and then choose a subset of the images when creating each time lapse 'frame' moving the centre of the FOV with each stitch - if you see what I mean?

But it seems Frederic plans to incorporate a feature to do just what you describe anyway:
http://www.autopano.net/forum/p36875-today-23-03-26#p36875

As I recall Merlin+Papywizard can travel up to 8 full 360 degree circuits too.
Last edited by mediavets on Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:16 am

I finally found a timelapse pano that I can appreciate of the Northern Lights:
http://www.vrwebdesign.co.uk/nlights/

Here's another - not entirely 'successful' IMO:
http://www.devalvr.com/panos/timelapse/index.html

Plays in DevalVR player so Windows only.
Last edited by mediavets on Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:05 pm

Here's another sort of timelapse pano - I think this is quite interesting:
http://www.panoguide.com/gallery/1111/view_pp/
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by fma38 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:54 pm

Funny!
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by fma38 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:45 am

irpano wrote:Do you invisage using the time delay to shoot, say five copies of the same 5 X 2 matrix each with a different exposure or should the standard method be used ( shoot the pano - adjust settings - reshoot pano )

It will be possible to do that, but only using tethered mode... I add it to the todo list.

If the timer method is used I find it hard to estimate the length of time to set for a delay after the first (say 10) images are shot

I tried to estimate the shooting time of a complete pano, but it is not thet simple. I think it will be easier in the new design I plan to do (I will have to modelize the speed and acceleration of the head, but there are a lot of parameters to take into account).
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by mediavets » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:44 pm

fma38 wrote:
irpano wrote:If the timer method is used I find it hard to estimate the length of time to set for a delay after the first (say 10) images are shot

I tried to estimate the shooting time of a complete pano, but it is not thet simple. I think it will be easier in the new design I plan to do (I will have to modelize the speed and acceleration of the head, but there are a lot of parameters to take into account).

If it's not a time critical shoot and does not involve hundreds of images then define the shoot with intervals set for max. exposure in your set of exposures and then run the shoot with camera turned off (or not even mounted on the head) and see how long it takes - then use that timing to determine a suitable interval between shoots for the timer?

You could of course do this at home and draw up a table of values for use in the field before setting out.
Last edited by mediavets on Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by fma38 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:28 pm

AerialVr wrote:i can understand liking the simplicity of just the n800. i don't see why adding a capabilty takes that away

(I switched this discussion about complexity here)
I would like to find a way to have a very simple and clear GUI for the v2. I plan to build it arround a plugins framework, so you can 'build' the features you need. It means that the GUI needs to be very flexible: each plugin should provide additionnal feature in a clear way, as for its preferences as well.

These plugins will need to be splited in categories, so each new feature will appear in the good part of the GUI, and not mess it up. Same for preferences.

So, it's maybe time to list all features that should be plugins. As Alexandre explained, we need to find the core part of the application, which is hard-coded, and what are the plugins (some plugins provide the same feature, and should be exclusive, so others are maybe mandatory...).

I would also love to be able to provide a fully customizable GUI, to allow the user the build its own main screen (maybe using a xml file; some default could be proposed, to fit the Nokia plateform, larger screens machines...).

So, I'm open to ideas; feel free to propose ;)
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by fma38 » Sat Jan 31, 2009 7:53 pm

I also plan to add some sort of wizard in Papywizard (!), to guide new users, or to create a new config from scratch. What would you like to see in the different pages of such wizard?
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by AerialVr » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:33 pm

http://www.breezesys.com/DSLRRemotePro/features.htm

"Auto Bracketing

DSLR Remote has a very flexible auto bracketing function which is ideal for high dynamic range (HDR) images and for product shots and interior shots without using sophisticated lighting. DSLR Remote Pro can automatically vary exposure using the shutter speed or aperture to take auto bracketed sequences of up to 15 shots. "

I think i am leaning towards using a laptop now in spite of the inconvience relative to a pda or tablet. i would really like to be able to have papywizard tell dslr remote to take the shot so i can take advantage of bracketing with a greater range.

info on that feature of dslr remote is here http://www.breezesys.com/DSLRRemotePro/help/index.html

"DSLRRemoteLib.dll

DSLRRemoteLib.dll is a library that can be used by other programs to control DSLR Remote Pro. It can be found in the main folder where DSLR Remote Pro is installed (usually C:\Program Files\BreezeSys\DSLR Remote Pro). Please see the DSLRRemoteTest\ReadMe.txt and DSLRRemoteLib.h files for details.

Files included:

DSLRRemoteTest.exe - compiled console application



DSLRRemoteLib.dll - DLL used by DSLRRemoteTest.exe to interface with DSLR Remote Pro

DSLRRemoteLib.lib - lib for C++ apps to link to the DLL

DSLRRemoteLib.h - header file for C++ applications using the DLL



DSLRRemoteTest - directory containing a VC++ project and source code for DSLRRemoteTest.exe"

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by fma38 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 5:44 pm

This is planned ;)

One thing: Papywizard is entirely written in python, and don't need any compilation. I won't add any plateform-specific code which will need to be cross-compiled or so; this is too boring (I already do that for my job!).

The way I plan to implement this feature is to call an external program, giving it some parameters, and get back the result as a retcode or so. It will be up to the user (or other programmers) to write such scripts. If DSLRRemoteTest.exe can be called by an external program like Papywizard, so it will be very simple. It will may require to write a .bat file to wrap the params in and out, so I don't have to write specific code in Papywizard.

We just have to define the way this external script will be called, and what general params we need. Feel free to propose something, based on DSLRRemote usage; this will be a good starting point.
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by [bo] » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:04 pm

Wait a second, are you saying that a future Papywizard version will do the same job as DSLR Remote in regard of timelapse and bracketing?
Some of my panoramas, posted in the Autopano Pro flickr group.

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by fma38 » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:25 pm

Not exactly: Papywizard will use it to make the bracketing sequence in a pano. I don't know yet what it will be possible to do or not with such external programs; if they are scriptable at a low level, it will be possible to use it to set the bracketing values from Papywizard. If not, you will have to set all params in a script, and Papywizard will just launch the script. DSLR Remote will then take all prictures according to the parameters in the script, and exit.
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by [bo] » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:41 am

Hmm, I was thinking about Papywizard replacing DSLR Remote in a workflow... if you already have the logic to make timelapse (I assume it has - you can "tell" the camera to shoot when and with what delay, right?) - I don't see why would you need DSLR Remote?
Some of my panoramas, posted in the Autopano Pro flickr group.

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by mediavets » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:54 am

'[bo wrote:']Hmm, I was thinking about Papywizard replacing DSLR Remote in a workflow... if you already have the logic to make timelapse (I assume it has - you can "tell" the camera to shoot when and with what delay, right?) - I don't see why would you need DSLR Remote?

Papywizard can only currently control a simple switch in the Merlin/Orion head and that is used to trigger the shutter.

As I understand it DSLRremote can do much more than that - including controlling exposure bracketing over a greater range than the standard AEB range of the camera.
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by fma38 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:30 pm

Ok [bo], I understand what you mean. Yes, it is possible to do timelapse right now with Papywizard (v1), using the timer/intervalometer. Futur v2 release will also be able to move the head during the shooting, to make travelling (I still need timelapse user input, here...).

But as Andrew explained, even if Papywizard can take several shots at the same place, it is up to the user to setup the bracketing feature of the camera; Papywizard only trigger the shutter trough a contact. The idea is to use an external script/program/whatever to do more complex things, like DSLR Remote does (mainly change the settings of the camera). For example, I plan to be able to bracket on more than 3 pictures, even if my 20D can only bracket on 3. More, I still have the idea to do intelligent bracketing, by analysing the picture, and take some more if needed - and only if needed.
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by GURL » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:35 pm

'[bo wrote:']Hmm - [..] I don't see why would you need DSLR Remote?

DSLR Remote Pro allows the Canon EOS digital SLRs to be operated tethered to a PC using a USB or FireWire cable. All of the camera's controls remain fully operational when connected to the PC and pictures can be taken directly using the camera's shutter release or remotely from the PC.

DSLR Remote Pro being restricted to PC plus USB or FireWire is probably not something difficult to work around. Being restricted to Canon - and new Canon DSLR being incompatible or only compatible with the last beta version - is probably much more meaningful.

Different camera manufacturers deciding to share a common tethered mode interface or enabling customers to add this compatibility by adding the functions they need to the camera manufacturer firmware would make sense but, :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Like for EXIF limited compatibility, the present situation is the best possible for Canon and perhaps Nikon but the other manufacturers, who have trouble at getting a decent share of the market, should contemplate the advantages and inconvenients of such a compatibility!
Georges

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by fma38 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:56 pm

If someone find some usefull informations about these protocols, please share! There are maybe some guys who hacked them using a USB sniffer...
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by AerialVr » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:57 pm

'[bo wrote:']Hmm, I was thinking about Papywizard replacing DSLR Remote in a workflow... if you already have the logic to make timelapse (I assume it has - you can "tell" the camera to shoot when and with what delay, right?) - I don't see why would you need DSLR Remote?

dslr remote allows bracketing over a wider ev range than the 4 stops the camera will do with aeb . i will bracket up to 15 images. i have been finding in 360 degrees there is often much more range than 4 stops. i use either tufuse or photomatics to blend the different exposures but i guess app will do that to

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by fma38 » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:11 pm

BTW, is DSLR Remote able to modify the exposure bias? For the intelligent bracketing feature I plan to do, I need to take a picture with default settings, analyse the picture, and then take one or more additional pictures, with different exposure bias...
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by AerialVr » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:01 pm

fma38 wrote:BTW, is DSLR Remote able to modify the exposure bias? For the intelligent bracketing feature I plan to do, I need to take a picture with default settings, analyse the picture, and then take one or more additional pictures, with different exposure bias...

I don't know but they have a free demo to download which i plan to do in the very near future as i just ordered my pano head, usb server and usb to ttl cable. will post on results when i get up to speed.

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