[Papywizard] 'Rewind/forward' feature  

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[Papywizard] 'Rewind/forward' feature

by fma38 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:44 pm

Ok, let's talks of this. I finally got a nice graphical system working, so I plan to add it to the 1.4 release...

When paused, it will be possible to click on a previously shot image to modify the current shooting sequence index (attached screenshots). As you can see, it will even be possible to skip some shooting positions by clicking *after* the last shot position.

When resuming operation, the shooting sequence restarts from the curently selected position, and go on as before. Data will be added at the end of the xml file, whatever the position has been already shot or not.

Is that OK for you?






Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by mediavets » Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:52 pm

Awesome - so you managed to do it this way after all.:)

I don't quite understand from the screenshots how colours of rectangles change for shots already taken when using 'go back'.

I like it. I think it is very elegant and intuitive.

I guess it will be useable if one has hundreds of shots in the mosaic? I am unlikely ever to face this - so I'm very happy for it to work the way you propose - but it was something we had discussed previously when I initially suggested doing the 'go-back' this way.

Let's see what others think.
Last edited by mediavets on Tue Nov 18, 2008 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by fma38 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:22 pm

Light colors (including grey, which are preview positions) are the next shooting positions; dark green/red are already shot positions; dark grey are skipped positions.

The position you click is the restarting point of the shooting sequence.

If we have hundreds of shot, it will may be more difficult to select the correct position; I'll see if an other selector will be needed in such case (like 2 little rewind/forward buttons).
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by mediavets » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:43 pm

Frederic

A few comments.

fma38 wrote:Light colors (including grey, which are preview positions) are the next shooting positions; dark green/red are already shot positions; dark grey are skipped positions.

Thanks for explaining that. Can you choose - I mean you to change the colours not to allow user to choose colours - a different set of colours that would be more easily differentiated in poor light or very bright lighting conditions? There's not a great deal of differentiation between light and dark grey, for example. We know that Nokia Tablet screen - like any LCD display - tends to 'wash out' in outdoor daylight. The display might look less aesthetically pleasing (more offensive to French style/taste? ;) ) with more contrasting/clashing colours but it might be might useable in less than perfect lighting conditions?

fma38 wrote:The position you click is the restarting point of the shooting sequence.

Yes, understood; do you have a chance to change your mind? - in other words if I clicked on rectangle to indicate the restart position and then changed my mind (or maybe I touched the 'wrong' one if there were a lot and thus it was a bit tricky to choose one with the stylus) and clicked another will that update the restart position?

fma38 wrote:If we have hundreds of shot, it will may be more difficult to select the correct position; I'll see if an other selector will be needed in such case (like 2 little rewind/forward buttons).

OK. Perhaps the Shooting window could be made a little larger, or that part of the window occupied by the graphical display of shooting positions be made relatively larger, so that shooting position rectangles could also be a little larger?
But overall I would be very happy with your proposed implementation of go-back/skip-forward.
Last edited by mediavets on Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by fma38 » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:05 pm

mediavets wrote:Thanks for explaining that. Can you choose - I mean you to change the colours not to allow user to choose colours - a different set of colours that would be more easily differentiated in poor light or very bright lighting conditions? There's not a great deal of differentiation between light and dark grey, for example. We know that Nokia Tablet screen - like any LCD display - tends to 'wash out' in outdoor daylight.

You're right; I will make some outdoor tests to choose the final colors.

Yes, understood; do you have a chance to change your mind? - in other words if I clicked on rectangle to indicate the restart position and then changed my mind (or maybe I touched the 'wrong' one if there were a lot and thus it was a bit tricky to choose one with the stylus) and clicked another will that update the restart position?

Sure :cool: The selection process is active as long as the shooting sequence is paused.

OK. Perhaps the Shooting window could be made a little larger, or that part of the window occupied by the graphical display of shooting positions be made relatively larger, so that shooting position rectangles could also be a little larger?
But overall I would be very happy with your proposed implementation of go-back/skip-forward.

I have some ideas for a new GUI design, but it will be for the v2 ;)

For now, I'm stuck with a nasty bug in a PyGTK low-level usage :(
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by odyssey » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:57 am

Very nice! Very cool indeed. I would say please do consider the go back, go forward buttons as I use Papywizard for the hundreds of shots gigapixel mosaics and it might be hard on the graphical interface. Also the colors are hard to differentiate (light and dark)

I am getting excited!
Jason
Nikon D200, Merlin/Orion with Nokia 800 & Papywizard
Two Panasonic FZ50's mounted in Stereo 3D on some interesting Gigapan stuff
[url=http://www.3dpan.org]www.3dpan.org Three Dimensional Panoramas![/url]
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by fma38 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:10 am

How many row/cols do you usually shoot? I found that it is not so hard to select in hundreds pictures, as you can retry if you click the wrong position.

I also plan (but not immediatly) to allow the user to select a rectangle, to reshoot a precise location in the pano. But I need to break some things in my code to support that.
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by Gordon » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:00 pm

I usually gigapan about 35x17. I've installed Papywizard and it works :D
The contrast is an obvious issue , which I'm sure you are resolving.

Gordon
Last edited by Gordon on Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:57 pm

Gordon wrote:I usually gigapan about 35x17. I've installed Papywizard and it works :D
The contrast is an obvious issue , which I'm sure you are resolving.

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

So you now have a working Merlin/Papywizard system up and running?

If so, and you have the time and inclination, I invite you to tell us more about your experiences of assembling and using the system in the User Reports topic:
http://www.autopano.net/forum/t4813-user-reports

Regards,
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Gordon » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:57 pm

I'm being optimistic here and excuse me if I misled you but not yet!!! I wish I had a fully operational system to handle my DSLR. What I have accomplished so far is the install of Papywizard onto a N770, via the fruitful exploitation of linux, which is not too dissimilar to DOS, says me who is not ofay with either.

But yes the software part now works, looking at the hardware side, I have not yet purchased a Merlin. It appears that the Merlin has a speed issue looking at the video created by Odyssey it does appears kind of slow and methodical...(which is not a bad thing) Just wondering if, as I have read that it could be speeded up.

Speeded up in my context would mean more speed for setting up and a return to normal speed for shooting, or maybe the user could have an option to change the setup speed and the shooting speed to their own preference.

I do have a Gigapan Beta unit, which I have had since Jan 08, which I do find very quick to setup. But as all things Beta there is no obvious benchmark as such. Which I suppose is all down to the GUI and the number of steps needed to setup etc.

Gordon

mediavets wrote:
Gordon wrote:I usually gigapan about 35x17. I've installed Papywizard and it works :D
The contrast is an obvious issue , which I'm sure you are resolving.

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

So you now have a working Merlin/Papywizard system up and running?

If so, and you have the time and inclination, I invite you to tell us more about your experiences of assembling and using the system in the User Reports topic:
http://www.autopano.net/forum/t4813-user-reports

Regards,
Last edited by Gordon on Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by fma38 » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:21 pm

It is possible to set a higher manual speed, while keeping the shooting speed as it is now.

Ok, I'll do that for the next dev. release :cool: AsI already added a slower speed to be more accurate, it is very easy to add a higher speed (pressing +/-)... I will also add a big warning message to prevent unwanted high speed selection.
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by mediavets » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:34 pm

Gordon wrote:I'm being optimistic here and excuse me if I misled you but not yet!!! I wish I had a fully operational system to handle my DSLR. What I have accomplished so far is the install of Papywizard onto a N770, via the fruitful exploitation of linux, which is not too dissimilar to DOS, says me who is not ofay with either.

But yes the software part now works, looking at the hardware side, I have not yet purchased a Merlin. It appears that the Merlin has a speed issue looking at the video created by Odyssey it does appears kind of slow and methodical...(which is not a bad thing) Just wondering if, as I have read that it could be speeded up.

Speeded up in my context would mean more speed for setting up and a return to normal speed for shooting, or maybe the user could have an option to change the setup speed and the shooting speed to their own preference.

I do have a Gigapan Beta unit, which I have had since Jan 08, which I do find very quick to setup. But as all things Beta there is no obvious benchmark as such. Which I suppose is all down to the GUI and the number of steps needed to setup etc.

Gordon

Yes, I guess the command line UI for Linux is pretty much like that of DOS, or Windows, or Mac OSX, or even CP/M (yes, I'm that old!)

I don't have a Gigapan Imager but having watched their videos on setting up a shoot, I think setting up is as quick or quicker with Merlin/Papywizard - esp. if you use 'shortcuts' such as No. of picts or Total FOV to define a mosiac. Given that most of the time you will probably be shooting with the same camera body and perhaps also the same lens there are very few parameters to change before a shoot.

In terms of shooting panos IIRC Jason (odyssey) did a comparison and found that it took 40% longer to shoot with Merlin/Papywizard vs. Gigapan Imager - not sure whether he used the same camera on both or was comparing covering the same scene but with DSLR on the Merlin and his compact digital camera on the Gigapan in which case number of shots may have difered between the two systems shooting the same scene.

Jason has both systems so I think he'll probably have something to add to this topic.
Last edited by mediavets on Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:36 pm

odyssey wrote:Very nice! Very cool indeed. I would say please do consider the go back, go forward buttons as I use Papywizard for the hundreds of shots gigapixel mosaics and it might be hard on the graphical interface. Also the colors are hard to differentiate (light and dark)

I am getting excited!
Jason

Jason,

Having never shot a mosiac comprising hundreds of shots I am wondering:

1. How would you decide that you need to back-up and repeat some shots when shooting a pano comprising many hundreds of shots? In what circumstances would you need to back-up and re-shoot?

2. How would you work out how many shots you need to back-up before resuming? Do you peer through the viewfinder? The FOV must be very small with very long focal length lenses?

3. Have you ever used a red-dot type sight to help point the camera?
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by odyssey » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:41 pm

Hi,

Having never shot a full spherical and only mosaics.... I will help from my perspective.

Mostly when I need to stop and go back (which is easy on the Gigapan imager) it is because somebody or a car or something came into view when the camera was taking the shots. I would have seen it happen (not by peering through the viewfinder) but just by watching the action. The Gigapan only goes top down then to the next column, so usually its just a matter of pausing, backing up one step, and resuming. If I am not sure, I can check the camera review. The other reason would be for an intermittent cloud coming and shadowing a scene that I don't want shadowed (this happened when I was taking a macro panorama of an ant hill on a mostly sunny day). In these cases I really am not needing to select a certain box, but I know I need to go back one or two steps and start over.

I am not certain how the AutopanoGiga is going to work with the data files, I have not tried that yet (is it even possible), what I don't know is if it still needs everything to be on a set spacing mosaic or if it can deal with an image plunked down anywhere in the x-y space and use the x-y data from the xml file to help position it onto the scene (such as take a mosaic and then fill in interesting bits of action after the mosaic is done).

Having been following the Gigapan.org site for over a year now I have to say there really is a lot of bad stuff on there when so many of the 'Gigapanners' do not take the time to clean up there shots (crop off the jagged edges, get rid of the ghosted people and half cars or equalizing exposures). The Gigapan stitcher does make it hard to do so, and also makes it easiest to just upload directly after stitching without any clean up. Everyone is on a learning curve and wants to post and be proud of their stitched images, but the number of 'interesting' posts on Gigapan is not increasing with the increasing number of posts. I bring that all up as I am hoping the Merlin/Papywizard can be developed to help capture 'interesting' elements inside a large mosaic scene.

No, have never use a red-dot type sight, sounds interesting.



To Gordon:

The Merlin is NOT TOO SLOW to have fun and success with!!! Don't let that hold you back, its a much better system for DSLRs than the Gigapan, my criticism is only in wanting to make it better. When I use a 500mm lens I need it to slew slowly. The problem is with the 105mm lens, its moving too slow with that one.

When I was comparing the Gigapan unit to the Merlin, it was of the same field of view and same equivalent focal length, but done with different cameras and aspect ratios so the number of shots was slightly different. They were both at the 500mm 35mm equivalent. I should do some comparisons with say 28mm too.

Regards,

Jason
Nikon D200, Merlin/Orion with Nokia 800 & Papywizard
Two Panasonic FZ50's mounted in Stereo 3D on some interesting Gigapan stuff
[url=http://www.3dpan.org]www.3dpan.org Three Dimensional Panoramas![/url]
[url=http://www.odysseyexpeditions.com]www.odysseyexpeditions.com Tropical Marine Biology Voyages[/url]

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by mediavets » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:56 pm

odyssey wrote:No, have never used a red-dot type sight, sounds interesting.

Jason

Here's one ready made mount but you could make your own or have one made to your specs.:
http://www.photosolve.com/main/product/xtendasight/index.html
Might be useful with that long, long lens?
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by mediavets » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:17 pm

odyssey wrote:Hi,

Having never shot a full spherical and only mosaics.... I will help from my perspective.

Mostly when I need to stop and go back (which is easy on the Gigapan imager) it is because somebody or a car or something came into view when the camera was taking the shots. I would have seen it happen (not by peering through the viewfinder) but just by watching the action. The Gigapan only goes top down then to the next column, so usually its just a matter of pausing, backing up one step, and resuming. If I am not sure, I can check the camera review. The other reason would be for an intermittent cloud coming and shadowing a scene that I don't want shadowed (this happened when I was taking a macro panorama of an ant hill on a mostly sunny day). In these cases I really am not needing to select a certain box, but I know I need to go back one or two steps and start over.

Jason

Thanks for the explanation - I am learning all the time that shooting different types of panos often involves very different skills and techniques as well as different equipment.

I guess you must become skilled at 'knowing' - as you put it 'just by watching the action' - what is in or out of the camera's FOV after shooting a lot of big mosaics so you 'just know' when a shot needs to be taken again without resorting to the viewfinder or reviewing shots already taken.

Frederic says he'll adds 'arrows' to the 'click on a rectangle' implementation of 'go-back' and 'skip-forward' so I think then we'll have the best of both worlds.
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by Gordon » Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:22 am

odyssey wrote:'Gigapanners' do not take the time to clean up there shots (crop off the jagged edges, get rid of the ghosted people and half cars or equalizing exposures). The Gigapan stitcher does make it hard to do so, and also makes it easiest to just upload directly after stitching without any clean up. Everyone is on a learning curve and wants to post and be proud of their stitched images, but the number of 'interesting' posts on Gigapan is not increasing with the increasing number of posts. I bring that all up as I am hoping the Merlin/Papywizard can be developed to help capture 'interesting' elements inside a large mosaic scene.

To Gordon:

The Merlin is NOT TOO SLOW to have fun and success with!!! Don't let that hold you back, its a much better system for DSLRs than the Gigapan, my criticism is only in wanting to make it better. When I use a 500mm lens I need it to slew slowly. The problem is with the 105mm lens, its moving too slow with that one.

When I was comparing the Gigapan unit to the Merlin, it was of the same field of view and same equivalent focal length, but done with different cameras and aspect ratios so the number of shots was slightly different. They were both at the 500mm 35mm equivalent. I should do some comparisons with say 28mm too.

Regards,

Jason

Thanks for the explanation Jason. I understand what you are saying, if you take a look at one of my images say the Bracken house Clock http://www.gigapan.org/viewGigapan.php?id=4280 you can see that there are no people, no cars and definitely no buses, this clock is directly in front of some traffic lights with a bus stop, loads of cars and people. What should have been a 10 minute shoot dragged out to be a 1 hour shoot, dedication and some pp withiin photoshop, but the final result made it was worthwhile.

The Gigapan system as you Know is still in beta and new for many, the learning curve for some can be steep as you say and now with Gigapixel photography, I believe that there is also a new methodology. The Bracken House clock for example is picture perfect what you would expect of an architectural image, but lacking a bit of movement/expression of time even (can a clock lose expression) with people walking past (AKA Zombies/Zombie Fest) this would also give it a bit of a creative edge in that it would express a certain passage of time/motion. I do also like the cubist imagery it visualises, maybe we have the emergence of two different schools within Gigapixel photography. I'm still experimenting and learning more every day, and receive different comments from different perspectives, which are all very much welcomed.

Regards
Gordon
Last edited by Gordon on Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:50 pm

It has occurred to me that there are times - particularly when making use of Rewind/Forward - when it would be useful not to Finish/close a pano (and related data file) when the head shoots an image at the final defined shooting position.

Instead it would be nice in these cases if the shoot instead of Finishing reverted to Pause, allowing continuing repositoniing of the head and taking of more shots.

OTOH there are other times when you do want the shoot to Finish/close (as well as the reltated data file) when the head reaches the last shooting position in the defined pano.

Right now I don't have any 'clever' ideas about how to resolve this 'paradox'.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.

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by fma38 » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:57 pm

A simple solution is t switch on the "Step-by-step" checkbox (previously called "Manual shooting") while you are shooting the last position, so it goes to pause mode at each step.
Frédéric

Canon 20D + 17-40/f4 L USM + 70-200/f4 L USM + 50/f1.4 USM
Merlin/Orion panohead + Papywizard on Nokia N800 and HP TC-1100

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by mediavets » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:15 pm

fma38 wrote:A simple solution is t switch on the "Step-by-step" checkbox (previously called "Manual shooting") while you are shooting the last position, so it goes to pause mode at each step.

OK - I was too dumb to think of that, I read the other day that brain function peaks at about age 40 (or was it 30? - see, my memory is going too) so I'm well down the slippery slope. - I tried it and it seems you must Pause and switch to Step-by-step before reaching that last defined shooting position.
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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