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 Post subject: Triggering Nikon D3100
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:47 pm 
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Hi,

I have connected the PanoGear to a Nikon D3100 with a Nikkor 18-105mm lens. I try to do a 360x150 panorama, using the PapyWizard.
For some reason the automatic trigger works at ~80% of the times.

Can anyone explain why ?

Thanks,
Netanel


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:01 pm 
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Perhaps you have used autofocus and the camera has been unable to focus before the next shot was taken?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:17 pm 
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neta wrote:
Hi,

I have connected the PanoGear to a Nikon D3100 with a Nikkor 18-105mm lens. I try to do a 360x150 panorama, using the PapyWizard.
For some reason the automatic trigger works at ~80% of the times.

Can anyone explain why ?

Thanks,
Netanel

Take a look at the values you have set for the Shutter plugin - see screnshots below.

The Time value has to be sufficient for the camera to take the shot so if you have long(er) exposures you will need to extend it.

You could also try increasing the Pulse width high value, some cameras seem to need a higher than default value.

And, as mentioned previously, use manual focus.





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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:07 am 
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Thanks. I used manual mode. Will try to extend the pulse width.
Can you also let me know how to make the motors run faster... ?

Netanel


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:32 am 
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neta wrote:
Can you also let me know how to make the motors run faster... ?

Netanel

If you have the Panogear mount with the Lithium Ion batteries and the Touch Controller then that's the fastest configuration available.

If you need a robotic pano head that's faster than that then you'd need to switch to one of these:

T&C Panoneed (to be launched very soon)

Seitz VR2

MK Panomachine 8

...................

What lens are you using with your D3100 on the Panogear pano head?

Are you shooting spherical panos, or partial panos with a pano FOV of less than 360x180 degrees?

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:24 am 
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:-( that's a shame.
I use Nikon 18-105mm lens. Seems like I should buy a wider angle lens.
I shoot spherical panos.

Thanks,
Netanel


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:54 am 
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neta wrote:
:-( that's a shame.
I use Nikon 18-105mm lens. Seems like I should buy a wider angle lens.
I shoot spherical panos.

Thanks,
Netanel

Unless you are shooting high resolution spherical panos a fisheye lens requires far fewer images to cover the 360x180 pano FOV, and provides greater Depth Of Field.

On the other hand a robotic pano head offers little advantage, over a manual pano head, if shooting with a fisheye lens. A manual pano head will typically have a considerably smaller nadir 'footprint' than the Panogear mount.

The Nikkor 10.5mm fisheye is good choice.

You might also consider the Samyang 8mm AE version fisheye for Nikon:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/2011/11/25/samyang8nikon

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Thanks for the tip.
However, I would like to make the best use of the Panogear and the Nikon I have without investing more money if I can.
It seems that even with the Papywizard index, the AutoPano is not capable to produce good 360x180 stitching. That is very frustrating, as I was under the impression that by having the exact location per each picture should allow the stitcher to come up with perfect merges.
Are there any system mechanical or SW tweaks that may help to optimize the stitching of the photos ?

Thanks again !

Netanel


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:26 pm 
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neta wrote:
Thanks for the tip.
However, I would like to make the best use of the Panogear and the Nikon I have without investing more money if I can.
It seems that even with the Papywizard index, the AutoPano is not capable to produce good 360x180 stitching. That is very frustrating, as I was under the impression that by having the exact location per each picture should allow the stitcher to come up with perfect merges.
Are there any system mechanical or SW tweaks that may help to optimize the stitching of the photos ?

Thanks again !

Netanel

Are you using the lens at min. 18mm focal length?

Are you sure you are not getting zoom and/or focus creep (lens components moving under their own mass) when at high positive and negative pitch - I found that I had creep with my 18-55mm kit zoom unless I taped it.

What shooting pattern are you using?

Are you confident that the camera/lens is correctly mounted at the No Parallax Point.

Presumably the camera/lens is mounted in portrait orientation?

Are you shooting panos indoors or outdoors?

............

The 'problem' with using a 'kit' zoom lens like your 18-105mm is that:

1,. You will need many more images that iof usinga fisheye to cover 360x180, this results in many more seams between images and hence possible stitch errors, and more chance of ending up with 'featureless' images that cannot be precisely placed although using Papywizard Import wizard shoudl assist placement.

2. You may get zoom and/or focus creep.

3. The depth of field will be less than if using a fisheye.

4. Zooms do not perform as well as prime lenses.

5. Typically you will end up with a much larger image that you need which will have demanded much more processing power and time to produce.

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:47 pm 
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yes, 18mm focal length
"Are you sure you are not getting zoom or focus creep when at high positive and negative pitch" - What do you mean by "Creep" ? I set the camera to manual exposure and focus, letting the Panogear to only "take the shot".
The pattern is calculated by the Papywizard. For 360x90, with 10% overlap it gives 2x6 pictures.
How do I set to the "no parallax point?" I did not see any documentation about it.
It is in landscape orientation, shooting indoor.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:59 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
neta wrote:
Can you also let me know how to make the motors run faster... ?

Netanel

If you have the Panogear mount with the Lithium Ion batteries and the Touch Controller then that's the fastest configuration available.

If you need a robotic pano head that's faster than that then you'd need to switch to one of these:

T&C Panoneed (to be launched very soon)

Seitz VR2

MK Panomachine 8

And Dr. Clauss´ Rodeon series :cool:

best, Klaus

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:22 pm 
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neta wrote:
yes, 18mm focal length

OK.

Quote:
"Are you sure you are not getting zoom or focus creep when at high positive and negative pitch" - What do you mean by "Creep" ? I set the camera to manual exposure and focus, letting the Panogear to only "take the shot".

If you point your camera upward or tilt it downwards does the lens move under its own mass? If so that's zoom and/or focus creep.

Do the EXIFs of your image set all report the same focal length?

Quote:
The pattern is calculated by the Papywizard. For 360x90, with 10% overlap it gives 2x6 pictures.

10% overlap is never sufficient, you should use 25-30% overlap.

If shooting spherical panos with a pano FOV of 360x180 you should use the Papywizard Preset mode not the Mosaic mode. When shooting spherical panos you need fewer images per row as you approach the zenith and nadir (to avoid excessive overlapping which can cause stitching problems), and Mosaic mode shoots a regular matrix/grid with the same number of images in every row.

There may be a pre-installed preset that's suitable for your 1.5x crop sensor and 18mm lens but if not this database will provide suggestions for shooting patterns so that you can create your own custom preset:
http://www.vrwave.com/panoramic-lens-database/nikon/

Quote:
How do I set to the "no parallax point?" I did not see any documentation about it.
It is in landscape orientation, shooting indoor.

Oh dear....you've a bit more to learn yet. But fear not, it's not rocket science.

The No Parallax Point (NPP) is the position where the camera/lens rotates around the entry pupil on both axes.

It is always desirable to mount teh camera/lens at the NPP whe shooting panos, but it is essential if shooting indoors, or other scenes where there are subjects close to the camera, otherwise you will have no chance of achieving a good stitch.

You will need to mount the camera/lens in portrait orientation to achieve this when using the Panogear/Merlin mount.

There are a number of ways of determining the NPP - a Google search will reveal more information but here's a few links:

http://wiki.panotools.org/No-parallax_point

http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database

http://wiki.panotools.org/No-parallax_point#Locating_the_NPP.28s.29_of_a_specific_lens

http://www.johnhpanos.com/epcalib.htm

_________________
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:28 pm 
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I have found the NPP ! (it wasnt too bad, your links were of great help) and put the overlap on 30%
All I have left now is to figure out how to reduce the 7 seconds delay from the shutter trigger to the panogear start moving to the next picture...

Thanks,
Netanel.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:23 pm 
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neta wrote:
I have found the NPP ! (it wasnt too bad, your links were of great help) and put the overlap on 30%

It seems you are still shooting in Mosaic mode and not Preset mode.

Mosaic mode is designed for shooting panos with a Field of View (FOV) of less-than-360 x less-than-180 degrees.

You should use Preset mode if shootimg spherical panos - those with a desired FOV of 360 x180.


Quote:
All I have left now is to figure out how to reduce the 7 seconds delay from the shutter trigger to the panogear start moving to the next picture...

Thanks,
Netanel.

What settings do you have for the Stabilization delay and Time value in the shutter plugin? - see below.

Can you show us screenshots of your settings?

...........

By the way what platform/OS are you using to run Papywizard?

Are you using a wired or Bluetooth wierless connection between the Papywizard platform and the Panogear/merlin mount?





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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Try this Preset with your D3100 and zoom at 18mm.

It should be close enough.



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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:10 pm 
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[You should use Preset mode if shootimg spherical panos - those with a desired FOV of 360 x180.]

OK I will try to use the Preset (360x180 takes so much time I tried to use 360x110...)

[What settings do you have for the Stabilization delay and Time value in the shutter plugin? - see below.]

Screen-shots attached

I use windows and bluetooth.








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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:45 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
Try this Preset with your D3100 and zoom at 18mm.

It should be close enough.

I used it. It took ~10 minutes to complete. I guess I cant expect better timing.
The issues I see are marked with black circles in the attached.
Is this due to the camera not being on the NPP ?

Thanks,
Netanel




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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:06 pm 
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neta wrote:
mediavets wrote:
Try this Preset with your D3100 and zoom at 18mm.

It should be close enough.

I used it. It took ~10 minutes to complete. I guess I cant expect better timing.
The issues I see are marked with black circles in the attached.
Is this due to the camera not being on the NPP ?

Thanks,
Netanel

Maybe, it's the sort of scene that poses challenges to APP/APG's control point detection system - a lot of relatively featureless plain colour walls.

The stitching errors appear to be on 'stuff' closer to the camera - that suggest it may be a parallax issue because the camera/lens is not set at the NPP. It's more important that the camera is centred on the yaw axis and at right angles to the upper rail, than being absolutely precise in fore/aft positioning in the upper rail.

You should use the Control Point Editor to investigate the links between images. Look for and remove any links between non-adajacent images to start with. Then optimise again and investigate any remaining poor quality links with high RMS values - can you post a screenshot of the pano in the Control Point Editor showing the links (see example below).

If you expect to get perfect stitches every time regardless of the nature of the scene, and without any user intervention, you are going to be disappointed - it's just not going happen, especially shooting interiors with an 18mm rectilinear lens.



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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:52 pm 
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neta wrote:
mediavets wrote:
Try this Preset with your D3100 and zoom at 18mm.

It should be close enough.

I used it. It took ~10 minutes to complete. I guess I cant expect better timing.

I ran that Preset with your settings using Papywizard 2.1.20 on a Nokia N800 with Bluetooth wirless connection and it took 6mins 23 sec with one shot per position.

Which version of Papywizard are you using?

_________________
Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:48 am 
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mediavets wrote:
neta wrote:
mediavets wrote:
Try this Preset with your D3100 and zoom at 18mm.

It should be close enough.

I used it. It took ~10 minutes to complete. I guess I cant expect better timing.

I ran that Preset with your settings using Papywizard 2.1.20 on a Nokia N800 with Bluetooth wirless connection and it took 6mins 23 sec with one shot per position.

Which version of Papywizard are you using?

2.1.21 - See attached log file


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:50 am 
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mediavets wrote:
neta wrote:
mediavets wrote:
Try this Preset with your D3100 and zoom at 18mm.

It should be close enough.

I used it. It took ~10 minutes to complete. I guess I cant expect better timing.

I ran that Preset with your settings using Papywizard 2.1.20 on a Nokia N800 with Bluetooth wirless connection and it took 6mins 23 sec with one shot per position.

Which version of Papywizard are you using?

See:
<comment> Generated by Papywizard 2.1.21 </comment>
<startTime> 2012-06-21_23h48m57s </startTime>
<endTime> 2012-06-21_23h58m04s </endTime>
type="rectilinear"> <focal> 18.0 </focal> </lens> <preset name="3 + 6 + 12 + 6 + 3 (28mm)"/>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:54 am 
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You should use the Control Point Editor to investigate the links between images. Look for and remove any links between non-adajacent images to start with. Then optimise again and investigate any remaining poor quality links with high RMS values - can you post a screenshot of the pano in the Control Point Editor showing the links (see example below).

Attached




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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:36 am 
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Neta,

That's just the sort of scene that presents challenges to any automatic control point detection system. Large areas of plain colour with very few features.

Using the Papywizard Import wizard has produced a really interesting result.

Before I comment on it further I wonder if you would do another little 'experiment'.

Can you stitch the 3 'central' rows of images - I think that's 10-27? - alone without using the Papywizard Import.

Then post a screenshot similar to that above showing the links APG detects and creates.

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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