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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 7:19 am 
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I am trying to find the best documentation to help me tackle a problem I have with APP overlapping images. I took 12 photos of the inside of an indoor football field. One side of the building looks almost identical to the other side so APP has overlapped them giving me only half the full pano. I manually tried to drag the images but I cannot figure out to make my canvas window wider to be able to make the pano wider...please help!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:59 am 
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You have to use the control point editor:

http://www.autopano.net/wiki/action/view/Manual_stitching_of_panoramas

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:50 pm 
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How do I make the canvas size wider so I can lay all 12 images across? The canvas window size is currently too narrow to be able to do this....


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:21 pm 
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Hi Jeffk,
I'm afraid that you will never obtain a nice pano with just moving pictures across.

Please read again what was said by digipano, mediavets and others in your previous post
http://www.autopano.net/forum/t4989-need-support-to-make-zenith-and-nadir-look-right-in-app

Follow fma38's advice and understand "manual stitching" video which is a very nice training course from Ramy.

I guess that, because of similar features on right and left walls, APP has built wrong links. In the CP's editor, you must first delete these false links between left and right pictures. Then select each correct pairs of pictures, select rectangle area in both pictures, click on "add control points" button (or stike <Enter> key). When all relevant links are built, click on "optimize the panorama" button.

Then all pictures should find their relative position in a wider panorama. Give it a try, certainly better than manual move. :)

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Canon EOS 40D, EF-S 10-22, EF 24-105 LIS, EF 70-200 LIS - Canon G9 (wide-converter)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:30 pm 
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OK Marco...I'll give that a whirl and see what happens! Thanks for the feedback on this.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:52 am 
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OK I've tried the suggestions here and I'm not having much luck...are there any other tricks I can try?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:14 am 
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jeffk wrote:
OK I've tried the suggestions here and I'm not having much luck...are there any other tricks I can try?

If you can put your images (in suitable size) on the Web somewhere I can download them I'll have a go at stitching them. And if successful I'll suggest how you can do it too.

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Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:14 am 
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Awesome. Here is the file....it's called insidefield.zip...it's an indoor football practice field...there are 12 images...no nadir or zenith....let me know what you think mediavets...

http://mediafuel.net/downloads/lucasoil


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:56 am 
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jeffk,
Did you use a well calibrated pano head for shooting this?
It seems that you just panned the camera on a regular head.
Quote:
One side of the building looks almost identical to the other side so APP has overlapped them giving me only half the full pano.

Even if this was shot on a calibrated pano head this is going to be a problem image for APP, its hard to stitch with present auto detection & will require manual CP addition.

Here is my try which shows serious errors
Image


Last edited by digipano on Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:35 am 
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Digi....I did use a calibrated pano head that had 12 clicks..it's the Kaiden quickpan.

One thing I tried yesterday was stitching 6 images from one side of the building and then stitched another 6 images from the other side. Then I used AAP to stitch those two panos together....but the probelm was getting the full 360..the far left and right sides did not match up to make a smooth seam.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:42 am 
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I actually had a better result with just the default settings...but it always just sees half of the building because the other half looks almost exactly the same....so APP overlaps the images...here's mine...
Image


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:10 am 
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Happy Christmas Jeffk,
I detected your pano with settings: quality high, 60 CPs, strong algo, lens distortion, no advanced.
Got same as you, two problems:
- at focale 19mm on full frame APN in portrait mode, you have about 66° horizontal FoV, 10 steps 36° (55% overlap) or 9 steps 40° (40% overlap) is just enough. With 12 steps, you get long links between not adjacent pics: pic #3 is linked to pic #2 and #4 but also with #1 and #5 : definitively not good.

- because of similar features in the walls, APP mixed pictures of both sides, making false links, and didn't recognized at 360°

In the CP editor with same settings as detection : deleted all false or two long links, create CPs by selecting high vertical rectangle in pair of pics that wasn't linked, optimize the panorama = now 360° and RMS about 2.3

I found some bad CP's with RMS a bit high. In CP editor settings: selected keep CP's with RMS lower than 4.0, clean bad control points, re-optimize. 360° and RMS= 1.60

I see pics were a bit distorded but as there is no lens info, I couldn't try PTLens.

Here is my result, you can do same at higher resolution.



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Canon EOS 40D, EF-S 10-22, EF 24-105 LIS, EF 70-200 LIS - Canon G9 (wide-converter)
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:00 pm 
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jeffk wrote:
Awesome. Here is the file....it's called insidefield.zip...it's an indoor football practice field...there are 12 images...no nadir or zenith....let me know what you think mediavets...

http://mediafuel.net/downloads/lucasoil

Easy...

First I renamed your sample images from 1.JPG-12.JPG to 01.JPG-12.JPG - this means they are displayed in correct order in the Control Points editor which makes life a lot easier when editing CPs.

In image settings APP identfied camera as Canon 5D and focal length as 19mm. I changed the focal length on one image to 18mm to force APP to calculate the focal length.

Used settings show below.

After stitch go into Control Points editor.

Then make sure you only have links between neighbouring images, remove surplus links, create links if none exist, and optimise.

Use Auto horizon tool to level.

Then check with Crop tool that you have full 360x180 displayed.

Use Centre point to orientate as desired.

Then crop if you want to crop.

And render - I used spline36 interpolator and Smartblend.







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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Thu Dec 25, 2008 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:24 pm 
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Mediavets
Your advice makes this perfectly stitchable pano but I am confused on 2 points.

Why did APP read as 19mm focal length if it was 18mm, if this is not the fault then why changing the focal length works out better?
Quote:
Then make sure you only have links between neighbouring images, remove surplus links, create links if none exist, and optimise.

Is there a way to tell APP not to find links on any other images except the neighbouring ones?
Removing other linked images works perfectly & gives a excellent stitch.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:33 pm 
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digipano wrote:
Mediavets
Your advice makes this perfectly stitchable pano but I am confused on 2 points.

Why did APP read as 19mm focal length if it was 18mm, if this is not the fault then why changing the focal length works out better?
Quote:
Then make sure you only have links between neighbouring images, remove surplus links, create links if none exist, and optimise.

Is there a way to tell APP not to find links on any other images except the neighbouring ones?
Removing other linked images works perfectly & gives a excellent stitch.

1. Because EXIF data focal length is rounded value and not always correct anyway. Setting the focal length manually to be different from EXIF for just one image forces APP to calculate the focal length rather than just accepting the EXIF data value, or so I understand.

2. I don't know of any way to tell APP to only create links between neighbouring images. If overlaps are enough but not too large you seldom normally get superfluous links except in the case of image sets like this where there are repeating similar elements in the scene, such scenes frequently require manual CP editing but they are usually simple to fix if you know the pattern of shots you have taken. This case was particularly easy because it was just a single row.

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:12 pm 
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Thanks,
That explains the issue of changing the exif of 1 image.

Merry Christmas!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:25 am 
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Excellent help...great directions! It worked like a charm. Thanks a ton for doing this so quickly...and especially on Christmas Day. Merry Christmas!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:20 am 
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jeffk wrote:
Excellent help...great directions! It worked like a charm. Thanks a ton for doing this so quickly...and especially on Christmas Day. Merry Christmas!

I had a lot of help from forum members when I started with APP just over a year ago - so I like to help newbies now as my contribution to the community.

Now you know how to deal with challenging image sets with a lot of repeating visual elements in the scene, like this one (you find the same phenomenon in many churches and some classical buildings) - which would make an excellent CP Editing tutorial example - you have the skills to tackle most image sets. :)

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 4:15 am 
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Absolutely. I'll be happy to help others just as you have helped me.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:07 am 
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I do have another challenge and wanted to see what you thought. I bought a 15mm Sigma fisheye lens, so now I only have to take 6 shots around. I took shots of a football stadium...6 around plus 1 zenith. I wanted to get your expertise on the best way to stitch this kind of pano with a zenith. I did use the control points editor and delete all the bad links. My question is the 7th image..the zenith...what images should it be linked to? Or any tricks? I have put these images in the same place if you wanted to take a look.

This stadium is really cool. The file is Centerfield.zip http://mediafuel.net/downloads/lucasoil


Last edited by jeffk on Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 5:57 am 
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Try linking the zenith image only to 1 of the images & see if gets you the desired result, if not then only add CP linking to other images.

I am downloading ur images, slow connection so it will take a while to revert back.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:30 am 
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Following old advice given by Mediavets, this one fails me on all counts, APP 1.9.1 alpha2 does not work at all finding the correct CP, maybe bcoz both ends look same & that might be confusing the detection engine.

So I gave up & deleted all the CP & created CP manually 1 by 1 only to the nebhiouring images & only 1 image linked with zenith & that worked perfectly.
Image

Perfect stitch ready
Image


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:38 am 
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jeffk wrote:
I do have another challenge and wanted to see what you thought. I bought a 15mm Sigma fisheye lens, so now I only have to take 6 shots around. I took shots of a football stadium...6 around plus 1 zenith. I wanted to get your expertise on the best way to stitch this kind of pano with a zenith. I did use the control points editor and delete all the bad links. My question is the 7th image..the zenith...what images should it be linked to? Or any tricks? I have put these images in the same place if you wanted to take a look.

This stadium is really cool. The file is Centerfield.zip http://mediafuel.net/downloads/lucasoil

Hi,

I'm just rendering it - takes a while on my old PC - then will post.

Anyway - here are some tips:

1. I use a Nikkor 10.5mm FE on my Nikon D40. This is optically the same as your Canon 15mm FE on your Canon 5D - both are fullframe FE lenses and produce images with 180 degree FOV on the diagonal.

Instead of shooting 6-around at eero degrees pitch and the zenith at +90 degrees I shoot the main row of 6-around at about -10 degrees of opitch and the 'zenith' at about +65 degrees of pitch.

This gives full 360x180 coverage and just leaves a small 'hole' at the nadir no larger than the rotator of my pano head (a NN5) and covers the zenith but with many scenes will also give more chance of getting a good link between the 'zenith' and the main row. In theory one good link between the zenith and the main row is enough.

You might try this and shoot say threee zenith shots - a couple at +65 with different yaw values and one at +90 - that way you'll have a choice.

2. Shoot with fixed manual settings for both aperture and shutter speed. And custom white balance. And fixed manual focus, FE lenses have huge DOF.

3. Use a larger aperture - I don't think there's any need to stop down to F22 in fcat such a small aperture may cause problems with image quality - I usually shoot at F6 to F8 with my Nikkor 10.5mm FE. FE lenses have huge DOF anyway.

4. The Canon 5D with the Canon 15mm FE is a very nice pano setup. You will get great results, with finished final 360x180s of at least 10000x5000 pixels which will provide a nice degree of zoom-in capability when displayed as fullscreen VRs. Only downside is they will take longer to render; a fast quad core CPU with at least 4GB RAM and some fast hard drives would be a great platform for stitching this sort of scene shot with your 5D/15mm FE pano setup.

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:43 am 
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digipano wrote:
Following old advice given by Mediavets, this one fails me on all counts, APP 1.9.1 alpha2 does not work at all finding the correct CP, maybe bcoz both ends look same & that might be confusing the detection engine.

So I gave up & deleted all the CP & created CP manually 1 by 1 only to the nebhiouring images & only 1 image linked with zenith & that worked perfectly.
[url]http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/7999/cpfn9.th.jpg[/url]

Perfect stitch ready
[url]http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/2913/20081227115355fw7.th.jpg[/url]

APP 1.4.2 copes OK with this sort of image set with some simple CP editing of auto detected CPs.

APG Alpha1 and 2 have huge problems with auto CP detection on this sort of scene and many far less challenging scenes.

I'll believe that APG is ready for prime time when it can handle CP detection on this sort of image set automatically and perfectly. Meanwhile my advice is to forget APG Alpha 2 if you want to sticth this sort of image set.

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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:58 am 
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jeffk wrote:
I do have another challenge and wanted to see what you thought. I bought a 15mm Sigma fisheye lens, so now I only have to take 6 shots around. I took shots of a football stadium...6 around plus 1 zenith. I wanted to get your expertise on the best way to stitch this kind of pano with a zenith. I did use the control points editor and delete all the bad links. My question is the 7th image..the zenith...what images should it be linked to? Or any tricks? I have put these images in the same place if you wanted to take a look.

This stadium is really cool. The file is Centerfield.zip http://mediafuel.net/downloads/lucasoil

Here are a couple of screenshots from CP editor view - I'll add the stitched result when my poor old PC has had the time to render it.

I used the same detection settings and CP editing technique as described before with one addition - after initial optimisation after editing CPs I selected all links (Ctrl-click or Shift-click) then chose to Clean bad control points and then re-optimise. This brought the global RMS down to just over 2. Which should be fine. But don't be tempted to 'overdo' this - the goal is not to get the very smallest value for Global RMS.
.......

How come you manage to get access to these stadia and training facilities?





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Andrew Stephens
Many different Nodal Ninja and Agnos pano heads. Merlin/Panogear mount with Papywizard on Nokia Internet tablets.
Nikon D5100 and D40, Sigma 8mm f3.5 FE, Nikon 10.5mm FE, 35mm, 50mm, 18-55mm, 70-210mm. Promote control.


Last edited by mediavets on Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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