Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by **stadh** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:34 am

Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by stadh » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:34 am

Hi all,
so now I have, for the first time, used a HDR workflow that promised to be really good:
- Exported 96 images (with bracketing of 3 images each position, so 32 positions) from LR
- Batchprocessed in Photomatix Pro 6.0.3, so I have 32 files in 32bit .hdr format
- Imported them into APG for stitching, stitching / rendering seemed to finish successfully
- Now I have a 32bit .hdr file of 2.5 GB size (resulution about 640MP) and I am stuck:

- Photoshop 2015, 2017 and 2018 all complain that "there is a problem with the file format module interface" (the German message is "Der Vorgang konnte nicht ausgeführt werden, weil ein Problem mit der Dateiformatmodul-Schnittstelle aufgetreten ist"). No idea about the reason.

- Photomatix Pro can open and edit the file well, but as soon as I click on the "Continue" button (German: "Weiter: Abschließen") to render the image, Photomatix Pro crashes.

- HDR Efex Pro 2 cannot open .hdr files in its file open dialog (greyed out), although I have read it should be able to open .hdr files.

- Aurora HDR also cannot open .hdr files, as it seems.

If I render the pano much smaller in APG, producing a 40MP .hdr image as output, I can open, tone-map and save it in Photoshop or Photomatix Pro without a problem.

So how can I now tone-map that file and render it as a JPEG or PSB file for further editing?
Any ideas what's going wrong here?

Thank you!
Daniel

by **Destiny** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:44 am

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by Destiny » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:44 am

Hi.. What are you going to use the 32 bit HDR images for...??? Most software you cannot view 32bit HDR images.. They need to be converted to 16bit...

The thing is.. They can be used for HDR Rendering in 3D software environments ect but not for VR Tours... You need to convert to 16 bit TIF's where you can edit and use in a VR Tour, since they are converted to JPGs... Work with 16 bit TIF until the very end..

The HDR options in APG is not that great.. Photomatix is the best.. If you want to use the images for high end software then use HDR but if you want to use for a VR Tour, convert to TIF's.. The attached image is made up of 5 images with 2EVs. If not, the blowout of light from the windows would be horrible.. I am using PhotoMatix V6+

HDR, or High Dynamic Range using TIFs are Tone Mapped using bracketed EV shots for VR Tours.., but Fusion to me looks better in a VR Tour, as this image attached.. EnFuseGUI is wonderful for Fusion too.. and can be saved as TIF's....

Not sure if I have answered your questions... Annis will be better for this.... But its the weekend.

Destiny...

Attachments

by **stadh** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:07 am

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by stadh » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:07 am

Hi Destny,
Thanks for replying.
Sorry, it seems I wasn't clear enough in my first post. Converting. Yes, that is exactly what I want to do but cannot.
Before stitching, I convert 3 brackets to 1 32bit hdr. Then I stitch the hdrs to one big hdr. Then I want to convert the hdr to a tone-mapped PSB or 16bit TIFF for further editing in Photoshop and later inclusion into a tour.
That conversion is the step that fails on me.

I know I could convert the single images before stitching and stitch the TIFFs. However, with 33 to 150 single images per room I prefer to convert the whole image, as I don't really know how the whole picture will look like when converting the single pictures. And IMO it is important to see the whole picture when doing a HDR conversion... Maybe I am too inexperienced with this yet. But when converting the single images I lack the ability to imagine how the whole picture will look like...

by **marzipano** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:56 am

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by marzipano » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:56 am

I thought Photomatix had this facility to convert 1 single big hdr (as well as the ability to merge brackets)

by **Destiny** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:41 am

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by Destiny » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:41 am

So I take it you are using RAW, then add your 3 RAW images into Photomatix, and merge into a single 32 bit HDR image.. Then you take your HDR images and drop them into APG where you stitch the HDR images into one full image.. Is this right..??

If so, after stitching, you can save as a PSB or 16bit TIF from APG... Then do your editing as an entire pano image using Photoshop or Lightroom.. Just be careful when editing the ends of the pano, you might have to use OffSet to ensure there is no difference otherwise you can end up with a kind of line in the image if used as a Pano Tour.....

Did you know, you can export the single fully stitched images layers, with their EV values as panos, then add those images into PhotoMatix and merge as a full pano.. Photomatix does have some editing options such as sharpening and contrast etc.. Better to use XML code to avoid double imaging.. I have done it but it's better to use single merged images rather than full panos due to the file size.. But I have heard other doing it this way as their workflow.... Each to their own I guess..

Have I understood your needs yet.. Or is it still lost in translation..

Destiny...

stadh wrote:Hi Destny,
Thanks for replying.
Sorry, it seems I wasn't clear enough in my first post. Converting. Yes, that is exactly what I want to do but cannot.
Before stitching, I convert 3 brackets to 1 32bit hdr. Then I stitch the hdrs to one big hdr. Then I want to convert the hdr to a tone-mapped PSB or 16bit TIFF for further editing in Photoshop and later inclusion into a tour.
That conversion is the step that fails on me.

I know I could convert the single images before stitching and stitch the TIFFs. However, with 33 to 150 single images per room I prefer to convert the whole image, as I don't really know how the whole picture will look like when converting the single pictures. And IMO it is important to see the whole picture when doing a HDR conversion... Maybe I am too inexperienced with this yet. But when converting the single images I lack the ability to imagine how the whole picture will look like...

by **stadh** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:05 am

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by stadh » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:05 am

marzipano wrote:I thought Photomatix had this facility to convert 1 single big hdr (as well as the ability to merge brackets)

In principle yes, but as I aid, it crashes when trying to render... Sent a support request to the author, hope he'll reply soon.
Loading and editing the panorama works well. Only when pressing the "finish" button (or however it is labeled in the English version, the button that starts the render process), it simply crashes. :-( Not so with much smaller panos. So size does matter here.

by **stadh** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:12 am

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by stadh » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:12 am

Destiny wrote:So I take it you are using RAW, then add your 3 RAW images into Photomatix, and merge into a single 32 bit HDR image.. Then you take your HDR images and drop them into APG where you stitch the HDR images into one full image.. Is this right..??

Correct.

If so, after stitching, you can save as a PSB or 16bit TIF from APG... Then do your editing as an entire pano image using Photoshop or Lightroom.. Just be careful when editing the ends of the pano, you might have to use OffSet to ensure there is no difference otherwise you can end up with a kind of line in the image if used as a Pano Tour.....

hmmm, does this reqlly work? Will need to try it.
I imagine if I use 32bit hdr as input and 16bit TIFF / PSB as output, APG NEEDS to do something to the tone values. And I'd like to give control over this process to anotehr program than APG.
But at least this will surely avoid my ghosting problem that I currently have when doing the HDR in APG (see http://www.kolor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=37631)

Did you know, you can export the single fully stitched images layers, with their EV values as panos

This is what I did before, but this introduces ghosts because APG does not output the layers exactly aligned. See the issue I linked above.
In principle this is a very nice way to do the HDR. I must used layer opacity and then, if necessary, masks, to adjust the tones to my liking. However, ghosting is something I cannot accept in such images, as the user can zoom in 100% and will see every slightest ghost, for example of text on a sign (that's where such ghosts are most annoying).

Then add those images into PhotoMatix and merge as a full pano.. Photomatix does have some editing options such as sharpening and contrast etc.. Better to use XML code to avoid double imaging.. I have done it but it's better to use single merged images rather than full panos due to the file size.. But I have heard other doing it this way as their workflow.... Each to their own I guess..

Have I understood your needs yet.. Or is it still lost in translation..

Destiny...

This time I think we don't have any misunderstandings anymore. :-)

Daniel

by **Destiny** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by Destiny » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:06 pm

With the Full Pano Export option. I do not do it that way for the reasons you stated.. I just thought I would mention it as an option but as you have found out its not the best option due to ghosting and file size. You also have to use the Papywizard xml code to control the alignments of the images. Besides, as you have found out and I made comment about, the file sizes can be huge.. So it's not the best option.. Even my iMac struggles with this option..

Best option I use..

Capture using RAW..
From Camera RAW export as 16bit TIF's after any fixing up.. Like chromatic aberration. Select ALL and fix.. I use the Auto Sharpening on Export since it aids in the stitching process.. But up to you....

Add the TIFs into Photomatix.. If you are using a robotic head there is not need for alignment but if your head is manual, you might have to use that option to fix ghosting.. Best to use a Remote control to avoid movement in the head when capturing bracketed images. Even better to use a Promote Controller to achieve more EVs than your camera can achieve..

Use Photomatix as you desire the images to be.. I like Fusion... Export as TIFs.. Use the Auto batch processing option...

Add your images into APG and stitch.. Save as a TIF.. Then you are ready to add your images into PTP.. The final images will be JPGs but using TIFs all the way, ensure no loss of image or colour quality..

Doing it this way, you should have no issues with crashing..

Destiny..

by **stadh** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:47 pm

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by stadh » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:47 pm

Right. Will try it that way.
The only drawback is that I cannot judge the HDR fusion / tone mapping result in the "big image", but have to judge it by the single images and guess if it will be good for the big image. But otherwise that workflow should be quite straight-forward and resource saving.
I hope, that with some experience with Photomatix I'll be able to assemble my prefered settings in an own preset, use that all the time and later adjust the pano in Photoshop only occasionally, if something doesn't work out as I liked.

Oh, and one more drawback: I really liked the option to work with masks in Photoshop after stitching to manually do some HDR work. But well... if the automatic was works as well or even better, why bother? ;-)

I use a motorized head (VRDrive II), so no need to alight the images in HDR software.

Thanks for sharing your workflow! It's always inspiring reading about other people's workflows. Also in order to see that there doesn't seem to be "the best" or "ideal" workflow, but that there are many options, and which is the best heavily depends on individual factors.

by **Destiny** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:48 pm

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by Destiny » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:48 pm

This is the best workflow to avoid working with image far too big which can cause a crash..

You can create your own pre-sets in Photomatix.. Start with a default and adjust accordingly then save it, adjust later if needed.. One for indoors and other for outdoors... As long as your middle image is as you would normally shoot, it should all turn out fine with the EV's either side of that base image... Use 100 ISO for indoors.. Outdoors adjust according to the the available light.. I too use a VR Drive, with the HDR software.. Its wonderful.. I always shoot 5 images, with 2EV steps.. Using a 14-24mm lens.. Set at 24mm...

Destiny....

by **stadh** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:19 pm

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by stadh » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:19 pm

Okay, first pano done with that workflow. However, two things went wrong.
First, it seems Photomatix does not treat every stack the same when doing batch processing.
I batch-processed using settings as shown here:

Output: 16bit Tiff.
After stitching with AutoPano Giga using these settings (without any editing):

I get this output image:

This looks awful! Good contrast and good highlights and shadows, good overall look, but note those dark "blocks" on the ceiling above the lamp and aboce the windows. Seems as if Photomatix treats the images not in an absolute way (each stack the same), but in a relative one (if there is some brightness in the image, make the highlights darker.. – something like that). An idea what the reason could be? I have not much experience with tone mapping, so maybe it's an easy thing...

Also, I get ghosts again! :-(

Note the text "WLAN" and below).

This time, however, it's not due to tilting the stack layers against each other (reported here with using HDR in APG:http://www.kolor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=37631), but this time it happens at a stitching seam. However, I have no idea why this happens. I intentionally chose "Antighost" render setting in APG.

by **stadh** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:56 pm

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by stadh » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:56 pm

okay.. both issues are solved by using another preset for batch processing. Instead of "soft2", which I thought would be a good basis to improve the overall image look on using Photoshop after stitching, I now used Fusion / Natural, and there I don't have those awful bright/dark block stuff and also no ghost in the text. Will continue from there now.

by **Destiny** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:58 pm

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by Destiny » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:58 pm

That double imaging might be your shooting pattern..

It might help if you export your xml code from your VR Drive and edit it to only one line of code for each shoot then use that as your PapyWizard XML with the Import Wizard...

As long as nothing is moving it should be fine.. You need to name sure your VR Drive is level and your tripod does not move as it turns.. I had issues with my carbon fibre tripod, it was too light.. So I bought a heaver one with a hook under it to hand a weight.. Now its perfect. Your VR Drive should be able to capture a perfect flawless pano... But, you have to make sure your shooting pattern is correct.. When you add your images into APG, go to Edit and flick between the image using your mouse.. If there is movement between the slices, then your NNP is not set correctly.. You can also view your Nadir by exporting as Cub Faces.. Use the KRPANO plugin for this. Since your will be able to export as TIFs.. Then you can edit that out using photoshop.. But you can tell a lot from your nadir footprint as to wether your NNP is set correctly..

The double imaging in your screen capture should not be happening.. Can you share some of those images.. Is that double images happening with Photomatix or APG after stitching..

Destiny...

by **Destiny** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:59 pm

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by Destiny » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:59 pm

Fusion Natural is what I use but I edited a little.. You can try Real Estate too.. Do not use any of the Soft PreSets for inside.. You need to keep everything sharp...

Destiny...

by **Destiny** » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:06 pm

Re: Where to tonemap .hdr outpur files of APG?

by Destiny » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:06 pm

You can see here the use of Fusion/Natural but with sharpening.. All text and images are sharp.. 5 bracketed images at EV's 2+/-

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/Auto ... sTour.html

Destiny...

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