Seemingly Impossible panorama?  

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ERR
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Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by ERR » Tue May 13, 2014 10:30 pm

I have a bit of a problem. I have a panorama of a rotunda. Specifically the rotunda at Woolsey Hall at Yale University in New Haven, CT USA. I have tried auto, manual... with no luck. I got my Global RMS down from 44 to between 3-6 and still when I go to build it comes out looking like Vincent Price in "The Fly".

I am posting my more "successfull attempts. As you can see it is a very symmetrical room.

When I import the first image (posted) into PTP I get a 360° which is stitched correctly however it is completely turned on it's side and unmanageable. Everything is there but the orientation is wrong> I have tried to manually adjust it with no luck.

Image 1 is seemingly stitched perfect but completely turned on it's side. Image 2 is a more accurate representation of the orientation needed but as you can see not stitched together perfectly (or even close).

I have already viewed the tutorial related to this type of room [ http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/ ... _panoramas ] but have had no luck. Any guidance would be appreciated and if anyone want's to take a crack at it I can send off the files.

Thank you,

Ed
©RP360°Version1.jpg

©RP360°Version2.jpg
The sun will come out, tomorrow... Well if not tomorrow then at least in 4 years and if not 4 years then most definitely 8 years max. But hopefully in 1 year or less.

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by mediavets » Tue May 13, 2014 10:37 pm

I'd like to have a crack at it.

Put the files on Dropbox?

It's very easy to change the orientation of the first example.
Set the Vanishing point over the centre of the nadir (or zenith) the use the yaw/Pitch/Roll toll to adjust pitch in 90 degree steps.

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by Destiny » Tue May 13, 2014 11:01 pm

Me too.... ;)

You might want to try something too... If you have another pano you had success with, using the same shooting pattern, I suggest you export the Papywizard xml after detection which is located in the top right panel... Then try to use the Papywizard import process with these images..

Destiny..

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by ERR » Wed May 14, 2014 1:52 am

Thank you both!

I will give those suggestions a try tomorrow (tired) and if I have no luck I will post a link to the files. Thank's again!

Cheers,

Ed
The sun will come out, tomorrow... Well if not tomorrow then at least in 4 years and if not 4 years then most definitely 8 years max. But hopefully in 1 year or less.

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by ERR » Wed May 14, 2014 2:21 am

©RP360°.zip
(60.17 MiB) Downloaded 79 times


Well no luck on the vanishing point pitch. I guess I picked a good one to "earn my chops".

Actually, is it OK to post the files here? Well I guess I will find out.
They seem to be downloadable. Let me know if you have any success.

Ed
The sun will come out, tomorrow... Well if not tomorrow then at least in 4 years and if not 4 years then most definitely 8 years max. But hopefully in 1 year or less.

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by a a gruntpuddock » Wed May 14, 2014 4:15 am

Not tried it yet, but my first thought on looking at the files is that perhaps there are too many?

I have found that going into 'move image' mode then removing some of the files will sometimes sort out a pano which is misbehaving.

Also reduces the amount of memory required, which speeds things up.

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by mediavets » Wed May 14, 2014 8:28 am

ERR wrote:
The attachment ©RP360°.zip is no longer available


Well no luck on the vanishing point pitch. I guess I picked a good one to "earn my chops".

Actually, is it OK to post the files here? Well I guess I will find out.
They seem to be downloadable. Let me know if you have any success.

Ed

Some observations, and an outline description of how I went about stitching your images, there may well be other/better ways:

1. You appear to have twice as many images are required in the main row - you only need 6 of the 12. Excessive overlapping just makes the challenge of stitching these images worse.

2. Because there are so many similarities between the images in the main row the automatic control point detection system gets confused. You will have to create links manually using the control points editor.

3. Initially start with every other image of the main row in your image set, so just 6 images. Set for spherical projection and max. projection range to ensure 360x180 pano FOV.

4 Using the Control Points Editor in the Panorama editor create links (removing the false auto detected links first) between adjacent images (1-2, 2-3, 3-4 and so on) and optimise, and re-orientate if required using Vanishing point and Yaw/Pitch Roll tools.

5. Add the zenith image in the Panorama editor and set pitch value manually to 90.

6. Select zenith image and right-clicking do Local viewpoint and Local geometry and Local optimise.

You should end up with something like my screenshot below. I could probably have refined the stitch further but you'll get the idea.

I suggest you leave out the nadir image from the stitch and patch that in using an image editor after converting to cube faces, or merely limit the VFOV in PTP, or add a logo at the nadir in PTP.

Screenshot shows panorama editor before rendering, then there's a small rendering of the stitched image, and I've attached a fiullsize render as a ZIP file.

It was fun to stitch these images, which would make a great test case for someone to learn how to use the Panorama editor.

How did you shoot the nadir image?
Attachments
1-apg351-360err.jpg
[Group 1]-ROG_1222_ROG_1233_Zenith-7 images-small.jpg
[Group 1]-ROG_1222_ROG_1233_Zenith-7 images-fullsize.zip
(7.29 MiB) Downloaded 46 times

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by klausesser » Wed May 14, 2014 12:51 pm

mediavets wrote:
It was fun to stitch these images, which would make a great test case for someone to learn how to use the Panorama editor.



Still a bit wavy, isn´t it . . . :cool:

Klaus

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by mediavets » Wed May 14, 2014 12:55 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
It was fun to stitch these images, which would make a great test case for someone to learn how to use the Panorama editor.



Still a bit wavy, isn´t it . . . :cool:

Klaus


I felt I'd done enough to establish a methodoloy - I wasn't aiming for your levels of perfection.

Did you have a go with these images?

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by Destiny » Wed May 14, 2014 12:55 pm

I look forward to seeing your effort Klaus.. Being a professional.... It should be better..

Destiny...

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by klausesser » Wed May 14, 2014 1:00 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:
It was fun to stitch these images, which would make a great test case for someone to learn how to use the Panorama editor.



Still a bit wavy, isn´t it . . . :cool:

Klaus


I felt I'd done enough to establish a methodoloy - I wasn't aiming for your levels of perfection.

Did you have a go with these images?


Where´s your sense of humor, Andrew?

I didn´t try the files so far - but i´ll give them a try =D

Klaus

P.S.: can´t find the files.

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by Destiny » Wed May 14, 2014 1:06 pm

Would you like a Map with directions!!.. :lol:

Destiny..

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by mediavets » Wed May 14, 2014 1:11 pm

klausesser wrote:Still a bit wavy, isn´t it . . . :cool:

Klaus

Yes, you are correct, it is still a bit wavy. I tried briefly to resolve that but gave up.

I didn´t try the files so far - but i´ll give them a try =D

Klaus

P.S.: can´t find the files.

You'll find an attached ZIP file in this post:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22454&p=142491#p142437

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by ERR » Wed May 14, 2014 2:32 pm

Hi Mediavets,

Well that is brilliant, thank you! I knew it could be done, I just don't have the knowledge/experience yet. This is only my 5th or 6th panorama and I am still in my "infancy" with learning the interface and tools. It's quite involved and powerful so it will take a bit of studious efforts on my part.

I'm going to print out your instructions and see if I can duplicate your results.

1) I actually started out shooting less (6) with my first couple of panos but for some reason ( I guess I'm a typical American thinking more is better) doubled the number assuming more overlap meant better results. Since my results have been "perfect" shooting that way I just kept up that workflow. But when I encountered this pano, I realized that there was too much information. So, as long as there is no benefit to shooting more images I'll go back to shooting 60° in increments instead of 30°. That will make things easier (quicker) when I am standing in the center of the crosswalk during the pedestrian cross time which is 30seconds ;)

2/3) I actually did try every other image and manually place control points. When I though I had done it correctly I just came up with another fine art piece. I guess it will take some more practice.

4/5/6) Time to practice!

I shot the nadir pointing straight down and shooting 2x 180° opposing. I also shot a freehand version which I did not include. I use the "freehand" one to patch out the tripod in PS if I can't do it with the initial 2 shots.

I will certainly keep up the files for people to practice with.

Ah I see a few comments came in while I was typing this out. "Wavy"... That's ok sometimes I can be a bit wavy too. Maybe I was in a wavy mood when I shot them :p . I put them in PTP and saw no noticeable effects. It looks great!

Destiny: "...map with directions" :lol:

Hmm, I never really used these little smiley face thingys. Another case for less is more I guess :O

I just appreciate your efforts on helping me learn the technique.

Thank you again,

Ed
The sun will come out, tomorrow... Well if not tomorrow then at least in 4 years and if not 4 years then most definitely 8 years max. But hopefully in 1 year or less.

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by mediavets » Wed May 14, 2014 2:55 pm

ERR wrote:
1) I actually started out shooting less (6) with my first couple of panos but for some reason ( I guess I'm a typical American thinking more is better) doubled the number assuming more overlap meant better results. Since my results have been "perfect" shooting that way I just kept up that workflow. But when I encountered this pano, I realized that there was too much information. So, as long as there is no benefit to shooting more images I'll go back to shooting 60° in increments instead of 30°. That will make things easier (quicker) when I am standing in the center of the crosswalk during the pedestrian cross time which is 30seconds ;)

6 a-round is enough. Beyond about 20-30% overlap more tends to make stitching more difficult.

What pano head do you use?

2/3) I actually did try every other image and manually place control points. When I though I had done it correctly I just came up with another fine art piece. I guess it will take some more practice.

When you have done the initial stitch and then open images in pairs in the Control points editor you should first delete the CPs created automatically by APG before create new ones.

4/5/6) Time to practice!

Yes, there is no substitute for practice.

Good luck. Post again if you get stuck.

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by klausesser » Wed May 14, 2014 4:47 pm

mediavets wrote:Yes, there is no substitute for practice.



Right.

http://www.klausesser.de/Final.jpg

Shooting a Nadir with a fisheye lens either needs correct un-distorting afterwards or shoot absolutely vertical.
When you shoot such a sujet again: take care of placing the carpets correctly on the marble-floor mosaics . . . ;) :cool:
Their somewhat chaotic placement irritates the stitcher.

best, Klaus

There are somem minor errors due to attempting to compensate the distortion. Didn´t care for them for time reasons.

P.S.: couldn´t correct it consequently because that would need more time.
Btw.: i would suggst to use another lens - this one has non-linear distortions. Maybe you can comensate them in an lens-tool
prior to stitching.

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by klausesser » Wed May 14, 2014 4:55 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:P.S.: can´t find the files.

You'll find an attached ZIP file in this post:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22454&p=142491#p142437



Thanks, Andrew! Tried the wrong link.

best, Klaus

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by mediavets » Wed May 14, 2014 5:04 pm



Very nice - you win. ;)

When you shoot such a sujet again: take care of placing the carpets correctly on the marble-floor mosaics . . . ;) :cool:
Their somewhat chaotic placement irritates the stitcher.

Yes, took me a while to figure out that they were mats.

Btw.: i would suggest to use another lens - this one has non-linear distortions. Maybe you can compensate them in an lens-tool prior to stitching.

It's a Samyang 8mm fisheye which has a different type of fisheye projection.
http://michel.thoby.free.fr/SAMYANG/Ear ... eport.html

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by klausesser » Wed May 14, 2014 5:04 pm

ERR wrote:Hmm, I never really used these little smiley face thingys. Another case for less is more I guess :O
I just appreciate your efforts on helping me learn the technique.



Ed - i strongly suggest to use a 10,5mm Nikon fisheye instead of your 8mm circular.
The resaon:
the Nikon fisheye is very good and has few non-linear distortions. Non-linear distortions hardly can be compensated.
It provides a better resolution on your D200 because of using the whole image-field instead just the center part - like all circular fisheyes do.

You took more shots with your 8mm tgen you would gave needed with teh 10,5mm . . . . :cool:

Using your D200 and a 10,5mm Nikon fisheye just takes 7 shots for a whole sphere - providing a better quality than the one you showed here.

best, Klaus

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by klausesser » Wed May 14, 2014 5:10 pm

mediavets wrote:


Very nice - you win. ;)


klausesser wrote:No - it´s not better than yours, just a bit different.

Btw.: i would suggest to use another lens - this one has non-linear distortions. Maybe you can compensate them in an lens-tool prior to stitching.

It's a Samyang 8mm fisheye which has a different type of fisheye projection.
http://michel.thoby.free.fr/SAMYANG/Ear ... eport.html[/quote]

Yes - i tested the Samyang on a friend´s D300. I compared it to the Nikon 10,5mm - which i found is clearly preferable when you have geometrical structures
in the image. Like in Ed´s one.

best, Klaus

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by ERR » Wed May 14, 2014 7:26 pm

[quote="mediavets"][quote="ERR"]

What pano head do you use?

I'm using an inexpensive "Panosauras 2" [ http://gregwired.com/pano/Pano.htm. ] After doing a bit of research it seemed this was the best option for me as a "beginner". Technically, I didn't not perceive too much of a difference between the mechanics/build of this head vs a more expensive, similar style one. Although I've been shooting professionally for 25 years, my area of expertise is weddings/portraits. I am "ripe" to try/learn something new after a quarter century... ;)

I could always use suggestions for upgrading my pano head if needed.

The lens I chose, Rokinon 8mm "fisheye" (actually could be a Samyang no definitive answer found), was purely a exploratory investment at 1/2 the price of the Nikon 10.5 feeling it was the best "compromise" given testing/reviews done by others. When I "settle in" I will most likely purchase the Nikon 10.5 to add to my "collection". For the time being I will correct the distortion in PSCC prior to stitching as you suggest.

I didn't have the opportunity to move anything (rugs) in the setting I photographed as Yale University gets a bit "freaky" about such things and I didn't want to get "banned" or at the worst arrested! Honestly, I don't think I would have even thought to rearrange the rugs (which makes sense now that I look at it again) :/

I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of the help. I'm looking forward to being able to contribute to the forums in the near future.

Ed
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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by mediavets » Wed May 14, 2014 7:45 pm

ERR wrote:I'm using an inexpensive "Panosauras 2" [ http://gregwired.com/pano/Pano.htm. ] After doing a bit of research it seemed this was the best option for me as a "beginner". Technically, I didn't not perceive too much of a difference between the mechanics/build of this head vs a more expensive, similar style one. Although I've been shooting professionally for 25 years, my area of expertise is weddings/portraits. I am "ripe" to try/learn something new after a quarter century... ;)

The main difference would be the click stops on most alternative pano heads.

I could always use suggestions for upgrading my pano head if needed.

If you ever consider changing pano heads, the Nodal Ninja range of pano heads is very popular.

The lens I chose, Rokinon 8mm "fisheye" (actually could be a Samyang no definitive answer found),

They are the same thing with different branding as far as I know - APG seemed to detect it as Samyang.

it was purely a exploratory investment at 1/2 the price of the Nikon 10.5 feeling it was the best "compromise" given testing/reviews done by others.

It is a fine choice for a skilled photographer, beginners might struggle with it being fully manual.

When I "settle in" I will most likely purchase the Nikon 10.5 to add to my "collection". For the time being I will correct the distortion in PSCC prior to stitching as you suggest.

I would leave it alone, APG should be abel to cope with it.

Some say the Samyang 8mm (other branded variants/clones claim different focal lengths) actually behaves more like a 9mm or 10mm, whether setting those values manually would alter stitching performance in APG I don't know.
............

You may like to try a slightly different shooting pattern, shooting the main row of 6 at a small negative pitch to reduce the size of the nadir 'hole'.

You can also try shooting the zenith shot(s) at say +60-65 rather than +90 as this may in many circumstances enable APG to more readly create links between the main row and the 'zenith' shot(s).

...............

That rotunda was a particularly challenging case of course.

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by ERR » Wed May 14, 2014 8:15 pm

mediavets wrote:
ERR wrote:
You may like to try a slightly different shooting pattern, shooting the main row of 6 at a small negative pitch to reduce the size of the nadir 'hole'.

You can also try shooting the zenith shot(s) at say +60-65 rather than +90 as this may in many circumstances enable APG to more readly create links between the main row and the 'zenith' shot(s).


I like the Zenith and Nadir suggestions.

I was shooting the main images slightly on the +pitch side as the pano head arm was significantly showing in the images and final pano. Even with the +pitch it was slightly showing in the LR corner but AGP took care of that.

I'll try changing the focal length and see if that has any bearing.

Thanks,

Ed
The sun will come out, tomorrow... Well if not tomorrow then at least in 4 years and if not 4 years then most definitely 8 years max. But hopefully in 1 year or less.

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by klausesser » Wed May 14, 2014 10:04 pm

ERR wrote:I'll try changing the focal length and see if that has any bearing.



bzw.: did you check the circle?

best, Klaus

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Re: Seemingly Impossible panorama?

by klausesser » Wed May 14, 2014 10:19 pm

Besides: i used APG 3.0.8. Found no way to do it in 3.5.1.

Klaus

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