HDR Probe Render settings  

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klausesser
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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:03 pm

chafouin wrote:Just wanted to add that PTGui has is correct with their "True HDR", so I really think Kolor should have a look at this issue, they must be losing lots of VFX professionals here...



That´s correct! And it also takes the PapyWizard-XMLs - works perfectly.

Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by Destiny » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:17 pm

Waiting for what.. to clean it :lol: :lol:

Destiny...

klausesser wrote:Ok - i pull out here . . the crew in the studio has finished lunch and is waiting for me :cool:
Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:34 pm

Destiny wrote:Waiting for what.. to clean it :lol: :lol:

Destiny...

klausesser wrote:Ok - i pull out here . . the crew in the studio has finished lunch and is waiting for me :cool:
Klaus



;) not quiet: shooting a video with a musician for compositing into a spherical panorama which i shot some weeks ago
and which fits the style perfectly.
This way i can realize nice camera-moves which i hardly would be able to do otherwise.

Big fun, much work . . . =D :cool:

Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:09 pm

I think the problem with clamping / flattening artifacts I'm getting is coming from only 1 picture, that's because lighting changed when I took the exposures, because of clouds.

So to summarize:

1) import brackets in APP
2) stitch them
3) No color correction!
3) render them with any settings to EXR 32bits

Render settings: Multiband
Result: Halos around edges and highlights, some color artifacts (a blue sign gets red sploches). You can reduce the halos by tweaking the level settings, but then the blending is visible.

Render settings: Simple (Linear + Diamond)
Results: HDR is correct (also a bit oversaturated, must come from the response curve APP uses), but blending blurs the image, and you see overlapping ghosts.

--------------------

1) import brackets in APP
2) stitch them
3) No color correction!
3) render the layers separated with to EXR 32bits, then merge them in LuminanceHDR/Photomatix/Photoshop

Settings: Multiband level -2
Results: Yay! No halos! Nice blending, it seems to work!

--------------------

1) Merge brackets in LuminanceHDR
2) Import 32bits EXR in APP
2) Stitch them
3) No color correction!
3) render the layers separated with to EXR 32bits

Settings: Multiband level -2
Results: Perfect results :)

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:36 pm

chafouin wrote:
1) Merge brackets in LuminanceHDR
2) Import 32bits EXR in APP
2) Stitch them
3) No color correction!
3) render the layers separated with to EXR 32bits

Settings: Multiband level -2
Results: Perfect results :)


That´s very interesting! My tests stitching 32bit/FP hdr in APG and using them for IBL were somewhat disappointing. But that´s about a year or more ago.
I´ll try it this way!
Do you use the probes for IBL or do you use them rather for GL?
What about the depths of the shadows - soft or hard?

best, Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Mon Jan 27, 2014 6:38 pm

Yes I use them as IBL. What do you mean by GL?
And what do you mean by the depths of the shadows? You mean the shadow blurriness?

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:36 pm

chafouin wrote:Yes I use them as IBL. What do you mean by GL?
And what do you mean by the depths of the shadows? You mean the shadow blurriness?


chafouin wrote:Yes I use them as IBL. What do you mean by GL?
And what do you mean by the depths of the shadows? You mean the shadow blurriness?



"GL" = Global Lighting.

Shadows = 1) soft (mapped), 2) hard (raytraced), 3) naturally deep, 4) naturally less deep, looks a bit "flat" (happens with hard shadows more quickly).

Usually in games lights and shadows are not very natural. In advertising they nee to be VERY natural, authentical - due to the backplate. This usually is a
very highres digital MF shot providing first-class quality. The HDR-sphere needs to match the visual quality of the backplate.

When there are delicate shadows and lights in the backplate lightd and shodows in the hdr-sphere needs to visually match them.

For that all 32bit/FP HDR-ability is needed. The objects - usually cars - come as extremely hires-detailed constructions and need to react on IBL very
delicately with each of their hundreds of components.

Otherwise it doesn´t look natural and realistic . .

Klaus
Attachments
Jeep.jpg
Cit.png

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:44 pm

Interesting information, I never put names on the different techniques, I just used them depending on what I wanted to achieve :)
At the moment I use Redshift, this is a hell of a renderer. It has a dome light similar to IBL lighting in Mental ray and Vray.

In games it's a bit different, you can't use soft shadows from the IBL, so it's always from a light (depth map shadows).

May I ask how much dynamic range you capture in order to get identical lighting to your backplate, without adding any light? If you want to have a strong direct sunlight, you must be taking a lots of exposures with ND filters?
And what sort of resolution are we talking about to match the MF backplate?

EDIT: Nice work BTW, thanks for sharing! :)

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:33 pm

chafouin wrote:May I ask how much dynamic range you capture in order to get identical lighting to your backplate, without adding any light? If you want to have a strong direct sunlight, you must be taking a lots of exposures with ND filters?
And what sort of resolution are we talking about to match the MF backplate?



I never use ND filters for bracketed shooting - why would i??
The reason for shooting bracketed is to shoot an extremely wide danamic-range. Using ND-filters would definitely be counterproductive.

I use ND filters exclusively for shooting very long exposures in daytime.

Depending on the location i use between 5 and 12 shots using 1EV between them. In some extreme situations i used 24 shots and 1/2EV between them.
That´s when i shot right into the sunset and wanted to have full tonal range in the sun as well as full tonal range in the foreground.

Shooting 24 pics@1/2EV instead of 12 pics@1EV difference per position produces an even smoother tonal-range in contrasty locations depending on what process you use in postpro.

Resolutions for the backplates i usually use 80 to 700MPx. My spheres usually are 120 and 700MPx to 4GPx - sometimes more, depends on what´s needed.

Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:09 pm

klausesser wrote:I never use ND filters for bracketed shooting - why would i??
The reason for shooting bracketed is to shoot an extremely wide danamic-range. Using ND-filters would definitely be counterproductive.
Klaus


Because with 12EV dynamic range, you don't get the full range of the sunlight. Even with 20EV you don't get everything. If you shoot directly into the Sun, 1/8000th shutter speed and f/22 are still not enough to get the proper value of the sun pixels.
But your experience is telling that you don't need to do it. If you were doing it, you wouldn't have to create a real sun light in the 3d renderer. But does it actually worth it? I guess not :)

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:23 pm

chafouin wrote:
klausesser wrote:I never use ND filters for bracketed shooting - why would i??
The reason for shooting bracketed is to shoot an extremely wide danamic-range. Using ND-filters would definitely be counterproductive.
Klaus


Because with 12EV dynamic range, you don't get the full range of the sunlight. Even with 20EV you don't get everything. If you shoot directly into the Sun, 1/8000th shutter speed and f/22 are still not enough to get the proper value of the sun pixels.
But your experience is telling that you don't need to do it. If you were doing it, you wouldn't have to create a real sun light in the 3d renderer. But does it actually worth it? I guess not :)



I guess you missed that i told about a sunset . . . ;) :cool: When the sun is half gone behind the horizon it´s not sooo bright anymore.

Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:28 pm

But you never shoot something else than sunsets?! You are a romantic guy ;)

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:31 pm

chafouin wrote:But your experience is telling that you don't need to do it. If you were doing it, you wouldn't have to create a real sun light in the 3d renderer. But does it actually worth it? I guess not :)



"Real sunlight" comes from the sphere . . from nowhere else - otherwise i wouldn´t need IBL, right . . . . =D
Sometimes i "paint" additional highlights on fenders, wheels or windows using HDR-Light-Studio (kind of a CGI creative´s "secret weapon" ;) )

Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by Destiny » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:43 pm

Yes, agree, the first one is nice work, I was admiring it last week.. It came from here.. http://www.hdrlightstudio.com/gallery.htm
Not so sure the second image is in the same league. In my eyes it looks a bit ordinary... There are some other really fine examples from that website gallery... Stunning in fact...

Destiny...


chafouin wrote:
EDIT: Nice work BTW, thanks for sharing! :)

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:50 pm

Destiny wrote:Yes, agree, the first one is nice work, I was admiring it last week.. It came from here.. http://www.hdrlightstudio.com/gallery.htm
Not so sure the second image is in the same league. In my eyes it looks a bit ordinary... There are some other really fine examples from that website gallery... Stunning in fact...


I like the second one better - the car´s perspective is more realistic and the details are more refined, when you give it a closer look.
The first one is so . . . "nice", so "normal". :cool:

Yep - lots of great work on thesite. Great tool!

Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:51 pm

Ok, you lost me :) How do you get proper sunlight intensities from an IBL with such a "low" dynamic range? That's where sIBL is interesting, you actually setup the sun position and intensity in sIBL then export the rig to your 3d software. The IBL is used for ambient lighting which is more than a simple color with ambient occlusion as we used to do it in the old times ;)

I haven't personaly tried, but I thought one had to shoot a very high dynamic range HDR in order to fully light a bright sun afternoon scene with just an IBL.

EDIT: just tried an IBL from the net, with the sunlight in it, and no I can't get the exact afternoon lighting with it. I have directional shadows, but no bright highlights from the sun.

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:18 pm

chafouin wrote:Ok, you lost me :) How do you get proper sunlight intensities from an IBL with such a "low" dynamic range? That's where sIBL is interesting, you actually setup the sun position and intensity in sIBL then export the rig to your 3d software. The IBL is used for ambient lighting which is more than a simple color with ambient occlusion as we used to do it in the old times ;)



No - you lost ME :cool: I talked about ONE situation: shooting directly into the sunset. The sun was very much down - please don´t try to lecture a photographer - who does lots of IBL spheres for advertising commercially - how to photograph a wide dynamic-range . . . =D :cool:

Of course it´s NOT enough as long as the sun is as bright as usual . . .

Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:35 pm

I wasn't trying to lecture you at all, I'm actually asking you to lecture me with asking you technical questions :) I wanted to know if, in general, you use ND filters to capture very high dynamic range probes, or if you use low dynamic range probes with sunlight created in the 3d software. I didn't get you were only talking about 1 case.

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by Destiny » Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:18 am

This thread has gotten me back interested in 3D.. I like using 3D Studio Max better than Maya but there is no Mac Version.. I modelled a 3D BullDog Clip during my Diploma of Multimedia course a few years ago, my first ever 3D model.. I won DUX for that course.. 99.98% :) the highest ever score.. :cool: =D

I have had KeyShots on my Mac for a while and in my view its one of the best render software apps for the money and the HDR render maps are outstanding.. Not sure how a Pano can fit into all this but I am still working on testing ideas.... I made up a quick mp4, I really love it.. KeyShots also has a VR option to animate the object in an orb.. I really want to add 3D objects into a Virtual Tour.. Some of my Feature Request will facilitate many of my ideas with this.. I feel there is real value in 3D within a Virtual Tour.. Whether its be to put a pano image into a 3D environment or a 3D object inside a Virtual Tour.. Both have merit...

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/KeyS ... ogTest.htm

Destiny...

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