HDR Probe Render settings  

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chafouin
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HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:55 am

Hello,

Does anyone have any advice for proper HDR probe rendering?
I've tried pretty much everything. By default, the Antighost with level -2 create halos around the edges of the objects, and also alter completely the brightness of some pixels, making in it not correct for HDR. Antighost with level-8 doesn't have the same issues, but you can notice color differences between the images, even with them having the same white balance and exposure settings.

The Simple mode with Diamond is the one that seems to keep the correct colors all the way, it makes the image a bit blurry (I can live with that), but it also leaves some nasty ghosts (not between the HDR brackets, but between the different photos). I guess I need to upgrade to Giga to be able to give priority to an image with the masks?

Thanks!

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by Destiny » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:11 am

Hi... try this...

Leave everything as default.... Load image, group them and select the middle image as the target.. In settings set to Detect Hard Links.. Make sure Fusion is selected and then detect.. After detection render... If its no good after that it might need tweaking.. Do not set the Auto Colour correction..

Destiny..

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:17 am

Thanks Destiny.

I've done all that already, and made sure to remove the auto color correction. The images only have Adjust Gamma, and the pano stitching are fine, it's just with the render settings that I'm struggling. In the wiki it's written to use antighost, but it can't say it's giving me the proper results for HDR.
HDR output either.

Thanks.

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by Destiny » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:30 am

Not Anti-ghost with bracketed images.. It has to be Exposure Fusion... Make sure you set your index to mid of stack.. If you have enough RAM you will be able to play a lot more with some of the more detailed features but if you have only 4G of RAM, forget it... The only other way if you are struggling is to process the bracketed image use EnFuse which his free but its not HDR its Fusion/LDR.. If you really want HDR, then you really need Photomatix..

Destiny..

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:45 am

I want proper HDR 32 bits with full depth for 3d lighting, using Exposure Fusion will tonemap my image, which is not what I want. I've tested creating HDR files before stitching, it's a possibility but it's creating new files and taking disk space, while the HDR merging results from bracketed images in Autopano are giving good results. It's just the blending that messes with it apparently. If I use HDR files as input files, I'm not sure that will fix anything, since Autopano will blend them the same way I suppose. But I'll do another test to so what it does with HDR files and Antighost, as explained on the wiki.

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by Destiny » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:55 am

Have you tried using the Exposure Fusion, once rendered, you then go to Edit and enter HDR editing.. As long as you have enough RAM...

Destiny...

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:03 am

I'm trying right now, following this worflow http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/ ... low_case_E
I'll let you know how it goes, thanks for your help.

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:17 am

I don't know why but the HDR color mode is greyed out, so I can't choose it when following this workflow...

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by Destiny » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:29 am

Fine for me, not greyed out.. To be honest, I never set the HDR, I set it to Exposure Fusion then do the HDR via the Editing.. I need to be gentle with it, since I only have 4Gig of RAM so I need do what ever to get it to the Editing page.. It really depends on how many images I have in my Stacks.. I gave up with the HDR with APG, its far betting to use Photomatix for HDR.. heaps more options to get it how I want and I can save a preset to follow on to other images anytime...

Destiny..

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:25 pm

So I merged the brackets into 32bits HDR files, and then stitched them in APP, and the results with Antighost level -2 are great, no halos around the edges. The colors are also more accurate, with the brackets APP was making a very saturated output file (but the 32bits HDR I made in LuminanceHDR are desaturated, so none of them are correct...). So that makes me pretty disappointed because it means that I have to merde to HDR before, that's an extra step and that is time consuming :(

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by Destiny » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:40 pm

Processing bracketed shots prior to stitching is what most people do.. The HDR feature has be a the cause of a lot of frustration in the past with a lot of people.. If you have lots of RAM, you can play with the features but for me, it won't work too well..

If you can, process using RAW images.. I found that the quality of images the is option produced was really quite nice as long as your images are correct to do so....

Love to see some of your HDR images when done...

Destiny..

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:29 pm

I know people who use bracketed images in PTGui and didn't report any issues with it's TrueHDR output though, I thought APP would have a similar render, as I find it more professional.

I have 36GB of ram so that's not limiting me, I have 126 bracketed images (14 positions with a 14mm rectilinear lens *9 exposures) and that's ok, just slow to render.

I'd have shared my HDR without any problem, but these are done for my company, so I won't be able to do it. But if I make some in my spare time, I will :)

EDIT: Also wanted to add that using HDR color correction and exposure fusion does alter the correctness of my intensities, and the multiband still create halos around the edges, so that's not a solution.
Last edited by chafouin on Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:37 pm

In the end, I think the problem is that the Multiband (corrected) works on a picture level and not a layer level. Is there a way to change that? That would be nice to have an input from the developers.
Last edited by chafouin on Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by Destiny » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:57 pm

Like I said on the beginning.. You are supposed to set it to either Exposure Fusion or HDR for bracketed shots, not Anti-Ghost...

Destiny..

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:02 pm

Sorry, I wasn't clear, but that's what I tried. When I said antighost, I actually meant Multiband. HDR color correction + HDR output (multiband level -2) give halos around the objects. Reducing it to lvl -8 removes the halos but then you see the blending differences between the images. Level -2 completely alters the pixel intensities of the HDR and is not correct.

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:17 pm

chafouin wrote:Hello,

Does anyone have any advice for proper HDR probe rendering?
I've tried pretty much everything. By default, the Antighost with level -2 create halos around the edges of the objects, and also alter completely the brightness of some pixels, making in it not correct for HDR. Antighost with level-8 doesn't have the same issues, but you can notice color differences between the images, even with them having the same white balance and exposure settings.

The Simple mode with Diamond is the one that seems to keep the correct colors all the way, it makes the image a bit blurry (I can live with that), but it also leaves some nasty ghosts (not between the HDR brackets, but between the different photos). I guess I need to upgrade to Giga to be able to give priority to an image with the masks?

Thanks!



The question is: does APG really produce "real" HDR in the meaning of HDR-probes? I use to use HDR in Maya and Cinem4D for IBL as well as in HDR-Light-Studio and Nuke.

With APG i use to render seperate TIFF layers (-2/0/+2 -) according the the bracketed shots. Theses TIFF-layers it use in Photomatix for rendering
them a HDR as 32bit/ch fp data for .exr or .hdr output.

These work perfectly as hdr-probes for IBL because they contain the *full HDR* data.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:27 pm

Destiny wrote:Like I said on the beginning.. You are supposed to set it to either Exposure Fusion or HDR for bracketed shots, not Anti-Ghost...

Destiny..



Destiny - when he needs HDR-probes that means "true" HDR for IBL and NOT fusioned or tonemapped images. Fusioned images DO NOT contain HDR-data.

"Real" HDR-data you cannot display with usual hardware.

What you´re talking about are tonemapped or fusioned images *made from* HDR which can be displayed - due to fusioning or mapping them to displayable image-files - and that´s a completely different "cup of tea"! These files DO NOT contain the needed data for IBL.

Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by Destiny » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:44 pm

You missed the point AGAIN klaus.. The POINT I was making was the fact that you do NOT set APG to Anti-Ghost when using bracketed shots and rendering to HDR.. You have to set it to Exposer Fusion or HDR.. That why, after the pano is rendered you have access to the HDR Editing where you can then edit the HDR settings then render again to HDR.....

Destiny...

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:45 am

Destiny wrote:You missed the point AGAIN klaus.. The POINT I was making was the fact that you do NOT set APG to Anti-Ghost when using bracketed shots and rendering to HDR.. You have to set it to Exposer Fusion or HDR.. That why, after the pano is rendered you have access to the HDR Editing where you can then edit the HDR settings then render again to HDR.....

Destiny...


Destiny - don´t worry: i know what i´m talking about from doing it several times a week shooting and processing HDR-spheres for IBL . . . . =D :cool:

But it´s not up to me to lecture you. I understand Chafouin´s problem and i´ll better adress him instead of adressing you, sorry.

Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:06 am

Yes, APP can create proper 32bits HDR files for lighting, they are correct when using Simple blending (linear + diamond). The problem is that they are a bit blurry, but also you get a lot of overlapping blurred parts because the distorsion of some images are of course not 100% corrected.

The way I see it, Antighost is only Multiband with cutting. HDR output is Multiband and Fusion (and HDR ghosts, but that one works properly so I won't talk about it).

If you don't want to have overlapping parts of the pano that don't match exactly (even with all RMS below 5), which is what you get with Linear, then you HAVE to use Multiband with cutting, which is a blending mode that cuts the images in a smart way to keep the informations where it needs to be (and remove what shouldn't be there).

Multiband with cutting level -2 works great with pre-merged HDR files.
But it doesn't with bracketed exposures, it creates halos. The way I see it, it's like it's trying to blend the bracketed images in a certain way that is not linear (otherwise the same halos would also appears when stitching pre-merged HDR files). Why doesn't it apply the same blending everywhere, calculated from the reference layer?

So here, the output being fusioned or not fusioned, it doesn't matter. The issue I'm getting is only because of the Multiband cutting.

I have to redo all my stitching with pre-merged HDR files now (and we're talking about several dozens of spheres), while I already had done everything with the bracketed exposures while I was waiting to get a license, and I didn't check that the renders were 100% OK, the watermarks being on the images, I didn't pay attention to the halos. I take responsibility for my poor judgment :D But that doesn't make me less disappointed, I really though APP was IBL lighting proof.

thank you both for your help. Klaus, you pretty much confirmed that we have to merge HDR files before, which is a cumbersome process. I already had to calibrate my raw files in ACR to get proper white balance, save them to TIFFs, then merge them to EXRs, and then finally stitch them. That takes a lot of diskspace.

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by klausesser » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:48 am

chafouin wrote:thank you both for your help. Klaus, you pretty much confirmed that we have to merge HDR files before, which is a cumbersome process. I already had to calibrate my raw files in ACR to get proper white balance, save them to TIFFs, then merge them to EXRs, and then finally stitch them. That takes a lot of diskspace.



You instead also can use stacks in APG - without merging them. What i do is stitching the stacks - but NOT merging or fusioning them!!
I render a single layer from each stack. It´s most important to NOT fusioning or merging them or treating them otherwise . . with color-correction ir whatever.

Having finished the rendering as layers i export the single layers as TIFFs and process them to HDR in Photomatix - then save them as .exr/.hdr.

Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by Destiny » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:11 am

Surely doing that way you would result in huge misalignment issues..

I can put single layer pano image into APG stitch them and then do it again using the same images and there will be a difference each time.. So attempting to merge pre rendered panos from the EV layers seems a very strange way of doing it...

In fact I would suggest that was a ridicules way of doing it... :rolleyes: How would APG detect the extreme high and low EV images, which would be needed for HDR..

Destiny..


klausesser wrote:
You instead also can use stacks in APG - without merging them. What i do is stitching the stacks - but NOT merging or fusioning them!!
I render a single layer from each stack. It´s most important to NOT fusioning or merging them or treating them otherwise . . with color-correction ir whatever.

Having finished the rendering as layers i export the single layers as TIFFs and process them to HDR in Photomatix - then save them as .exr/.hdr.

Klaus

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by chafouin » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:05 pm

Very interesting Klaus, I'll try that on Monday!

Destiny: you can render layers, there is a checkbox for that in the render settings. They should have the same stitching information from the reference layer, so they should match (hopefully the blending would be identical as well). I'll give it a go and see if it works.

The big question is: Does it export layers with EXIF data, so we can properly merge them?!

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Re: HDR Probe Render settings

by Destiny » Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:17 pm

Yes I realise you can render layers but I have doubts that each pano layer will render exactly the same.. I guess if XML code was used where it was made to always conform to code rather than any control points or hard links then I could imagine it would work..

Destiny..

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by klausesser » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:07 pm

chafouin wrote:The big question is: Does it export layers with EXIF data, so we can properly merge them?!


Hi Chafouin! (is that really your name? :cool: )

I´m afraid i don´t understand your question!? The layers get merged to one .exr or .hdr file properly in Photomatix.
I never care about EXIFs.

Don´t know whether you know this:
http://www.hdrlabs.com/sibl/index.html
http://www.hdrlabs.com/sibl/software.html
http://www.hdrlabs.com/sibl/formatspecs.html

some more interesting basics: http://www.hdrlightstudio.com/

Klaus

PS: i´m very well aware that APG puts out .exr or .hdr files. But i´m not convinced it really PRODUCES "true" HDR.
Some time ago somebody put that to discussion here and we checked it in Nuke - Nuke did NOT identify the APG-files being
"true" HDR . .
Not everything which is labeled "hdr" truely IS hdr these days.

Many people think tonemapped images being "hdr" - that´s nonsense of course. Tonemapped or fusioned images aren´t hdr - they have been hdr once, but have lost all hdr features being mapped or fusioned.

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