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 Post subject: Outside the crop zone
PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:43 am 
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Working on a large panorama with over 1000 photos.
Customer now want a version with only central part of panorama. So I am working on that and have the crop set do that part.
Can't help wondering if there is an easy way to remove all images that are totally outside of the current crop.
I am thinking it might speed up things a lot or is that not so?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:57 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
Working on a large panorama with over 1000 photos.
Customer now want a version with only central part of panorama. So I am working on that and have the crop set do that part.
Can't help wondering if there is an easy way to remove all images that are totally outside of the current crop.
I am thinking it might speed up things a lot or is that not so?



When i do the same thing i delete the images around the cropped zone. BUT: let a kind of a "safe zone" around the crop! It´s like the "safe zone" you see in the viewer of
a prof. film or video camera or in editors like MediaComposer, FinalCut, Premiere and so.

The reason for letting a "safe zone" around the crop is the geometrical construction - sometimes images need the next one or two adjacent images also outside the crop for being optimized.

Klaus


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:05 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
Working on a large panorama with over 1000 photos.
Customer now want a version with only central part of panorama. So I am working on that and have the crop set do that part.
Can't help wondering if there is an easy way to remove all images that are totally outside of the current crop.
I am thinking it might speed up things a lot or is that not so?



When i do the same thing i delete the images around the cropped zone. BUT: let a kind of a "safe zone" around the crop! It´s like the "safe zone" you see in the viewer of
a prof. film or video camera or in editors like MediaComposer, FinalCut, Premiere and so.

The reason for letting a "safe zone" around the crop is the geometrical construction - sometimes images need the next one or two adjacent images also outside the crop for being optimized.

Klaus


Ok I rephrase my question, is there a simple way to remove all the images that are outside the safe zone around the crop and will this speed up previewing and rendering?
I know I can delete them by had but when it concern hundreds of them, that can be a lot of work


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:12 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
Working on a large panorama with over 1000 photos.
Customer now want a version with only central part of panorama. So I am working on that and have the crop set do that part.
Can't help wondering if there is an easy way to remove all images that are totally outside of the current crop.
I am thinking it might speed up things a lot or is that not so?



When i do the same thing i delete the images around the cropped zone. BUT: let a kind of a "safe zone" around the crop! It´s like the "safe zone" you see in the viewer of
a prof. film or video camera or in editors like MediaComposer, FinalCut, Premiere and so.

The reason for letting a "safe zone" around the crop is the geometrical construction - sometimes images need the next one or two adjacent images also outside the crop for being optimized.

Klaus


Ok I rephrase my question, is there a simple way to remove all the images that are outside the safe zone around the crop and will this speed up previewing and rendering?
I know I can delete them by had but when it concern hundreds of them, that can be a lot of work


I can only describe it as a Mac user:
1) uncheck the images in the layer for making them invisible
2) select the images you want to delete by highlighting the first one, hold down the shift-key and select the last one of them. Then use backspace or delete.

Of course that´s not very comfortable when there are images in between you want to keep - but how would the app know which images these are?
Ok - it MIGHT know that because you cropped them away :cool: . . . i also missed this feature of recognizing cropped-away images several times . . ;)
it would make working more fluent sometimes.

But it also maybe be it´s better leaving the whole bunch of images in the costruction for optimization - even the ones you don´t need - who knows? :rolleyes: =D
There´s no explanation in some "documentation" at all . .

Would be nice to get some info from Kolor about this one . .

best, Klaus


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:40 pm 
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..........

Of course that´s not very comfortable when there are images in between you want to keep - but how would the app know which images these are?
Ok - it MIGHT know that because you cropped them away :cool: . . . i also missed this feature of recognizing cropped-away images several times . . ;)
it would make working more fluent sometimes.

But it also maybe be it´s better leaving the whole bunch of images in the costruction for optimization - even the ones you don´t need - who knows? :rolleyes: =D
There´s no explanation in some "documentation" at all . .

Would be nice to get some info from Kolor about this one . .

best, Klaus[/quote]

I thought about the method that your described, it is one to be carefull with I guess. One might easily remove too much.
The remove everything outside the crop route sounds therefore preferable. Maybe time for a suggestion in a different part of this forum.

Remains the question whether it helps autopano to preview and render faster or nothing at all.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:45 am 
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HansKeesom wrote:
The remove everything outside the crop route sounds therefore preferable. Maybe time for a suggestion in a different part of this forum.



The problem is: how close or how far you go beyond the borders of your crop? Going not far enough beyond the borders - which means keeping not enough images though they´re invisible - might cause issues for the optimizer.

So "removing everythig outside the crop" i´m quite sure cannot solve the problem without causing new problems . . . :cool:

But i´m not a software developer.

Klaus


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:23 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
The remove everything outside the crop route sounds therefore preferable. Maybe time for a suggestion in a different part of this forum.



The problem is: how close or how far you go beyond the borders of your crop? Going not far enough beyond the borders - which means keeping not enough images though they´re invisible - might cause issues for the optimizer.

So "removing everythig outside the crop" i´m quite sure cannot solve the problem without causing new problems . . . :cool:

But i´m not a software developer.

Klaus


Reminds me about a debate had here concerning the preview where you would have different results for a certain area depending on how far you would zoom in. Depending on the zoom not all photos that affected that area where taken into account. Which sounded to me like a wrong choice while trying to speed up things.

I have been a software developer, should be very easy. For each picture that had no pixel inside the crop area, remove it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 9:23 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
For each picture that had no pixel inside the crop area, remove it.



I don´t think it´s that simple. My own experiences showed that three or four adjacent images outside the drop-range still have an influence on the geometrical construction as a whole - depending on the kind of projection of course. Think about you shoot a mosaic around the NPP - you´ll get a spherical "recording". Now you change the projection to "planar" . . . .
You´ll need SOME amount of un-distorting - for that you´ll need data which is outside your crop-range. The question is: where is the Limit?

I don´t know how familiar you are in using a large-format view camera and the "Rule of Scheimpflug".

Swinging (tilt) the projection plane (aka: film-plane) in relation to the lens-board you can expand your DOF. This is possible because you can crop your format: it´s large enough to get cropped when you use 4x5" or 8x10". So you have a lot of redundant data - which helps you to un-distort your projection resp. to expand your dOF.

Something comparable happens when you edit the stitched construction.

(that´s explained VERY much superficial - detailed explanations you might find here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheimpflug_principle and others.)

Klaus


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:27 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
For each picture that had no pixel inside the crop area, remove it.



I don´t think it´s that simple. My own experiences showed that three or four adjacent images outside the drop-range still have an influence on the geometrical construction as a whole - depending on the kind of projection of course. Think about you shoot a mosaic around the NPP - you´ll get a spherical "recording". Now you change the projection to "planar" . . . .
You´ll need SOME amount of un-distorting - for that you´ll need data which is outside your crop-range. The question is: where is the Limit?

I don´t know how familiar you are in using a large-format view camera and the "Rule of Scheimpflug".

Swinging (tilt) the projection plane (aka: film-plane) in relation to the lens-board you can expand your DOF. This is possible because you can crop your format: it´s large enough to get cropped when you use 4x5" or 8x10". So you have a lot of redundant data - which helps you to un-distort your projection resp. to expand your dOF.

Something comparable happens when you edit the stitched construction.

(that´s explained VERY much superficial - detailed explanations you might find here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheimpflug_principle and others.)

Klaus


I om not sure whether Scheimplug theory is used inside autopano, up to someone else to answer.

I can understand that the position of an image is depending on the surrounding images. I guess that therefore it is wise to have a ring of images around the crop that are not removed even though they do not appear with any pixel on the crop itself. Maybe they should be locked/nailed to their position or limited in future movement.

I often explain making a panorama like pointing a dia-projector on a wall and then paint the wall in the right color. In this case we have 1070 dia-projectors that all need to be placed in in the right position and beam in the right direction with the right FOV, rotation, brightness and color temperature.
What I am asking is to turn off and remove the dia-projectors that are not at all shining on the part of the wall that I am currently painting.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:30 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
klausesser wrote:
HansKeesom wrote:
For each picture that had no pixel inside the crop area, remove it.



I don´t think it´s that simple. My own experiences showed that three or four adjacent images outside the drop-range still have an influence on the geometrical construction as a whole - depending on the kind of projection of course. Think about you shoot a mosaic around the NPP - you´ll get a spherical "recording". Now you change the projection to "planar" . . . .
You´ll need SOME amount of un-distorting - for that you´ll need data which is outside your crop-range. The question is: where is the Limit?

I don´t know how familiar you are in using a large-format view camera and the "Rule of Scheimpflug".

Swinging (tilt) the projection plane (aka: film-plane) in relation to the lens-board you can expand your DOF. This is possible because you can crop your format: it´s large enough to get cropped when you use 4x5" or 8x10". So you have a lot of redundant data - which helps you to un-distort your projection resp. to expand your dOF.

Something comparable happens when you edit the stitched construction.

(that´s explained VERY much superficial - detailed explanations you might find here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheimpflug_principle and others.)

Klaus


I om not sure whether Scheimplug theory is used inside autopano



I guess it´s not. That was only to illustrate what i mean.

HansKeesom wrote:
I can understand that the position of an image is depending on the surrounding images. I guess that therefore it is wise to have a ring of images around the crop that are not removed even though they do not appear with any pixel on the crop itself. Maybe they should be locked/nailed to their position or limited in future movement.


That´s what i meant. The question is still: how many do we need.

HansKeesom wrote:
I often explain making a panorama like pointing a dia-projector on a wall and then paint the wall in the right color. In this case we have 1070 dia-projectors that all need to be placed in in the right position and beam in the right direction with the right FOV, rotation, brightness and color temperature.
What I am asking is to turn off and remove the dia-projectors that are not at all shining on the part of the wall that I am currently painting.


I understand very well what you´re asking - but again: the question is which projectors do you NEED for your perspective-/geometrical correction resp. un-distorting and which would just be nice to have . . . =D :cool:

Run a test and look what it does in your case - it´s obvious that it depends very much on the perspective and the motif you shot.

Klaus

PS:
Regarding you explanation with the projectors: you should merntion that all projectors would need to send each beam from ONE POINT . . . =D


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 6:33 pm 
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klausesser wrote:
Regarding you explanation with the projectors: you should merntion that all projectors would need to send each beam from ONE POINT . . . =D

No, why, we can have multipleviewpoints, although this is making it harder.
I was working on a gigapan that was shot from a boat 100 m in front of a beach. So I sure had multiple viewpoints.....


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