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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:25 pm 
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I am still struggling with autopano3. I made some shots for livepano. 4 simple fisheye shots, Shaved nikon 10.5, what can possible goes wrong with that?
After 2 hours with autopano i still have terrible stiching errors. APP finds a lot of control point, I made extra points, i changed every possible parameter.i feel a little lost now.

As a check i did the stitching in PTgui, seconds work, perfect stitch. So it should be no problem for APP.

I still don't have a good equirectanagular so i don't even start with the video integration for livepano

What i do not understand. In APP it make a equirecangular of 13500 somthing pixels. In ptgui it has a maximum of 11.000 pixels. Shouldn't it be the same??

Maybe someone has some settings for fisheye.
- in optimization tab; lens correction enabled?
- strong algorith or not

Is there some instruction how to deal with fisheye lenses?


Attachments:
File comment: my settings.
app settings.jpg
app settings.jpg [ 107.29 KiB | Viewed 764 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:59 pm 
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If you want to make the image set available for download as ZIP file I'll take a look and see why you might be having problems.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:57 pm 
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Hello Mediavets,

Thanks for the help. I made a zip with the 4 jpg's. They are made with the shaved nikon 10.5 on a fullframe camera. Also a test stitch with ptgui.

Hope you can find the solution. This is the kind of thing i can work whole night on because i am sure i do something wrong...

Thanks,
Harry


Attachments:
File comment: 4 jpg's and a result file from ptgui
problem-stitch.zip [8.25 MiB]
Downloaded 24 times
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:47 pm 
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If posible, I would like your images to test... I can understand your frustration but APG 3.5 should fix your issue... It would benefit you for me to check your images...

You can web transfer them to me at dps@westnet.com.au perhaps using https://www.wetransfer.com/#

Destiny...

diax wrote:
Hello Mediavets,

Thanks for the help. I made a zip with the 4 jpg's. They are made with the shaved nikon 10.5 on a fullframe camera. Also a test stitch with ptgui.

Hope you can find the solution. This is the kind of thing i can work whole night on because i am sure i do something wrong...

Thanks,
Harry


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:41 pm 
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diax wrote:
Hello Mediavets,

Thanks for the help. I made a zip with the 4 jpg's. They are made with the shaved nikon 10.5 on a fullframe camera. Also a test stitch with ptgui.

Hope you can find the solution. This is the kind of thing i can work whole night on because i am sure i do something wrong...

Thanks,
Harry


This is the best I can manage so far; with APG 3.0.8 64-bit version on Windows 8.1 Pro.

I used the Control Points Editor (in the Panorama Editor) to extend the range (vertically) of the control points along the overlap area between images.

But it's still not perfect in the ceiling area.


Attachments:
[Group 1]-DSC_3658-Edit_DSC_3667-Edit-4 images-308-07.jpg
[Group 1]-DSC_3658-Edit_DSC_3667-Edit-4 images-308-07.jpg [ 4.81 MiB | Viewed 737 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:40 am 
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Hi Harry

Firstly, PTGui is a freak, it's an amazing software app.. It just works and works well.. However, APG for your case could work much better since ACCORDING TO APG, your NNP is not correct.. Its heaps out.. APG detects very differently so its not as tolerant if your NNP is out.. Saying that, it might not be out..

It must also be pointed out that APG has many more features than PGTui and if working as it was designed it would be the best and most advanced stitching software. I went off using APG for many reasons but I was forced back to it when I wanted to try out the LivePano..I have spent weeks and many many hours in trying to get APG to work for me so I can finally test LivePano.. I have decided to move on from using the Fisheye lens and will therefore be doing some test panos using my 50mm.. That opens the gate to other issues, namely RAM... I would have tried it in the beginning but my poor old iMac locks up or APG will crash if it runs out of RAM..

I have battled over this for over two years in using my 10.5mm Fisheye Lens.. Your Zenith and Nadirs seems to be perfect according to these cube images below from PTGui. However, according to these cube images below from APG, your NNP is out.. But is it.. The cube faces for the Nadir and Zenith would suggest it is way out.. But.. I do not think it is as far out as APG might suggest.. It might well be APG creating the illusion that the NNP is out, since it gets confused with Fisheye Lenses.. So you could spend hours.. days... week.. or in my case, YEARS in trying to work out what I might be going wrong.. So much time wasted.. Its not out. My NNP is perfect... I have tested it with other stitching software too..

I achieve the same kind of RMS as you do, but the RMS is a really bad indicator of results.. I achieve the same kind of results as you do with BOTH APG and PTGui... I use a Robotic Head, and one of the main reasons why I went in this direction, was very much driven by the fact that I could NOT achieve a good result with my NN4 and 10.5 Fisheye Lens when using APG to stitch.. I then purchased my VR Drive only to find that I had the same issues as before.. I then began to use PTGui.. Perfect.. Not a single issue.. The new APG apparently has fixed the many issues.

One reason for your rendered images being different sizes is due to the fact that PTGui renders at 300dpi and APG renders at 240dpi, which does not make sense to me.. In my opinion it should render at 96dpi.. You cannot view 240dpi on most monitors.. 300dpi would be the minimum for print.. Anyway.. besides all that... There is still an inconsistency since if I put the PTGui rendered pano to 240dpi, its still not the same size, so something is wearied...

This url below shows that your NNP is out.. But as I said, 'IS IT'... Or is it APG creating the illusion that its out since it cannot cope with a Fisheye Lens in the same way as PTGui can... I really feel that the issue is really the Fisheye Lens.. APG does not really know how to interpret a Fisheye Lens.. If I use my 50mm or even my 35mm, the nadir looks much better and the stitching is also much better.. Therefore, it would suggest that it's the Fisheye Lens which is the main issues. Others on this forum do not get the many issues you get or I get.. BUT, some of them are using a 85mm or other prime lenses..

http://www.destinyvirtualtours.com/Harry/HarryNNP.html

Destiny...


Attachments:
nnp1.jpg
nnp1.jpg [ 57.14 KiB | Viewed 732 times ]
cubes.jpg
cubes.jpg [ 773.82 KiB | Viewed 732 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:02 am 
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mediavets wrote:
diax wrote:
Hello Mediavets,

Thanks for the help. I made a zip with the 4 jpg's. They are made with the shaved nikon 10.5 on a fullframe camera. Also a test stitch with ptgui.

Hope you can find the solution. This is the kind of thing i can work whole night on because i am sure i do something wrong...

Thanks,
Harry


This is the best I can manage so far; with APG 3.0.8 64-bit version on Windows 8.1 Pro.

I used the Control Points Editor (in the Panorama Editor) to extend the range (vertically) of the control points along the overlap area between images.

But it's still not perfect in the ceiling area.


Same here, hardly a problem

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a4qzgvli500w7ii/6VfQAFNbRg


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:14 am 
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diax wrote:
Hello Mediavets,

Thanks for the help. I made a zip with the 4 jpg's. They are made with the shaved nikon 10.5 on a fullframe camera. Also a test stitch with ptgui.

Hope you can find the solution. This is the kind of thing i can work whole night on because i am sure i do something wrong...

Thanks,
Harry


What make and model of pano head are you using?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:56 am 
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Wow, thanks Mediavets, Destiny and HansKeesom all for the long and detailed replies and sending the test stitch in APG. Very positive. The stitches you made are almost perfect.

I use the shaved 10.5 with the Nodalninja R1 (the Nikon 10.5 with 1.85 setting) and lensring. Heavy tripod with leveler. After many hours in the bathroom (the tiles!) testing for the perfect Nodalpoint i thought i had found it and Ptgui displays very good values for the control points.
So it surprises me that APG reports bad Nodalpoint, maybe it has to do with the fisheye, maybe i have to do more testing.

Another thing strikes me. I still use APP but i think APG is a better solution for 'difficult' stitching , it seems unlikely it has another stitching algorithm. But maybe for Livepano integration APG is a better solution. Anyhow, i will upgrade, it will do no harm.

Because of your positive test stitched i decided to give it a new try. I now have a better result with the preset STRONG and not FISHEYE. (see printscreen) but still not the same perfect results as mediavets was sending.

I still don't understand why ptgui makes a smaller maximum pano (11.000 pix) than APG (13.000). Same lens should give same dimensions of stitched pano. One of these two giants makes an error, or APG is stretching the pano too much or PTGUI is schrinking it. Maybe it is possible to measure dimensions (lenght and height) of an well defined object in front and center of camera and check it with on screen dimension in stitched pano.
Maybe someone of kolor has an answer to this strange outcome.

Thanks for your positive support,

Harry


Attachments:
File comment: settings in APP for nikon 10.5 fisheye.
app3 optimization.jpg
app3 optimization.jpg [ 141.61 KiB | Viewed 698 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:14 pm 
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diax wrote:
Wow, thanks Mediavets, Destiny and HansKeesom all for the long and detailed replies and sending the test stitch in APG. Very positive. The stitches you made are almost perfect.

I use the shaved 10.5 with the Nodalninja R1 (the Nikon 10.5 with 1.85 setting) and lens ring. Heavy tripod with leveler. After many hours in the bathroom (the tiles!) testing for the perfect Nodalpoint i thought i had found it and Ptgui displays very good values for the control points.
So it surprises me that APG reports bad Nodalpoint, maybe it has to do with the fisheye, maybe i have to do more testing.


No fisheye lens has a single NPP; it's always a compromise:

http://michel.thoby.free.fr/Fisheye_his ... heory.html

http://www.panoramas.dk/panorama/Fishey ... allax.html

Because of your positive test stitched i decided to give it a new try. I now have a better result with the preset STRONG and not FISHEYE. (see printscreen) but still not the same perfect results as mediavets was sending.[/quote]

You need to learn how to use the Control points editor (in the Panorama Editor).

You will then see that by default APG is placing most control point close to the 'equator' of your images. And you need to add more to cover more of the seam/overlap area top to bottom, and re-optimise, to improve the quality of the stitch.

But as Destiny pointed out RMS as a measure of quality of stitch is very different from control point distances in PTGui; with RMS, stitch quality can sometimes get worse as the RMS value decreases.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:55 pm 
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To bypass the Fisheye for the Strong option further supports my theory that APG fails to recognise a Fisheye lens ....

Remember too, that your NNP will change according to your focal length with a fisheye lens.. I always open mine up full to avoid this....

Destiny...


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:24 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
To bypass the Fisheye for the Strong option further supports my theory that APG fails to recognise a Fisheye lens ....

The various options merely comprise sets of detection and optimisation etc settings, non changes the lens type.

Remember too, that your NNP will change according to your focal length with a fisheye lens..[/quote]

Yes, but the Nikon 10.5mm FE has a fixed focal length.

Quote:
I always open mine up full to avoid this....

Destiny...


I think you are talking about aperture?

Does NPP vary with aperture?

I wouldn't recommend an aperture larger than 5.6 for most panos, although it can be used fully open at a pinch.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:11 pm 
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Destiny wrote:
To bypass the Fisheye for the Strong option further supports my theory that APG fails to recognise a Fisheye lens ....

Remember too, that your NNP will change according to your focal length with a fisheye lens.. I always open mine up full to avoid this....

Destiny...


Being practical, if APG fails to recognise fishey, just help it a bit and tell it to use the fisheye option. Not that much work and cool results

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I stitch and render for other photographers. Price: RMS^3, no cure no pay. If you want to concentrate on your business let me do the stitching for you.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:03 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
Destiny wrote:
To bypass the Fisheye for the Strong option further supports my theory that APG fails to recognise a Fisheye lens ....

Remember too, that your NNP will change according to your focal length with a fisheye lens.. I always open mine up full to avoid this....

Destiny...


Being practical, if APG fails to recognise fisheye, just help it a bit and tell it to use the fisheye option. Not that much work and cool results


I think Destiny means that APG doesn't seem to handle lens distortion correction of fisheye lenses as well as it should.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:11 pm 
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Destiny means the focal distance that change the nodal point of this kind of lens, not the focal lenght ;)
In addition, this Nikon lenses have no internal focus element, so that the entire front group moves during focusing.
One way to circumvent this is to use a very small aperture (f/11 or f/16) and a fixed distance setting.
See more informations about this AF 10,5 mm Nikkor here:
http://www.pierretoscani.com/echo_fisheyes_english.html

Btw: I use the AF 16mm f/2.8 fisheye on FX and have no problems with lens distortion correction in APG.

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Martin


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:33 pm 
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lumelix wrote:
Btw: I use the AF 16mm f/2.8 fisheye on FX and have no problems with lens distortion correction in APG.


So why do you think it's not easy to get good stitch - let alone a perfect stitch - with the image set (attached to the earlier post in this thread) shot with a shaved Nikon 10.5mm FE on a Nikon D800?

PTGui seems to be able to do it easily.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:43 pm 
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This might be narrowing down the issue... I have an issues and I use a 10.5mm Fisheye.. Martin uses a 16mm and has no issues.. Others use prime lenses such as an 85mm or 50mm etc.. with few issues.. I really wonder if AGP has been configured correctly to recognise the 10.5mm Fisheye lens... I would love to try a 16mm Fisheye to test this theory...

If I load my images into APG, I can set the focal length same as PTGui does by Auto = 10.5mm.... However, the 35mm focal should be 15mm to 16mm.... But I cannot set this without the focal length value changing.. If I set the 35mm focal to 16mm, so will the focal length change to 16mm... I can change the conversion factor to have 10.5mm focal length and focal 35mm to 15mm, but the conversion factor will not be correct.. It has to be 1.43 which is wrong..

Perhaps PTGui performance over APG is the fact that PTGui has total recognition of the 10.5mm Fisheye lens.. I really think kolor needs to go back to basics with this lens recognition.. I have always felt this was the case.. I was at one time advised that the Focal Length is not important..

Yes, it was Martin last year who advised me about the NNP reliant on the focal distance... That is why I open it up all the time.. Its seems to work well with PTGui.. Well, I think I understood it all..

Anyway.. Here below you can see if I were to use a 16mm Fisheye like Martin, then I can set all parameter correctly.. However, it does not work like that when using a 10.5mm fisheye...

Destiny...


Attachments:
fisheyelenses.jpg
fisheyelenses.jpg [ 207.08 KiB | Viewed 660 times ]
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:59 pm 
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Another factor to take into consideration is the fact that I also use a D800.. The issue might also be the fact that the sensor settings and the fact that a DX lens has been used and is not recognised by APG....

Destiny...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 9:08 am 
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Destiny wrote:
Yes, it was Martin last year who advised me about the NNP reliant on the focal distance... That is why I open it up all the time.. Its seems to work well with PTGui.. Well, I think I understood it all..

Destiny...


Focal length and focal distance are not the same thing.

And what you talk about opening up is presumably the aperture - a different thing again.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:19 am 
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Ok, here we go:
- First thing I can see is, that on my machine, APG (3.0.8 x64) recognize the camera modell wrong. It use a Nikon 800 with crop factor 5.11 ??
- But even with this wrong settings, APG make a not so bad stitch. But it's something lazy and don't recognize some control points in the ceiling.
- So I have to set some there on this ceiling lamps. And be carefully to take the correct corners ;)
- Then rms is about 3.5
- Clean up the control points and set the distortion modell to third order (see screen shot) and I get a rms of 2.78 and a perfect stitch.

Conclusion: APG sometimes is like a diva. You have to play with it.

BTW: I'm sure Destiny means fixed focal distance and a small aperture (closed to f/11 - f/16) so you get a big depht of field


Attachments:
wrong detection of camera.jpg
wrong detection of camera.jpg [ 59.95 KiB | Viewed 644 times ]
opti_settings.jpg
opti_settings.jpg [ 56.67 KiB | Viewed 644 times ]
apg308_x64.jpg
apg308_x64.jpg [ 284.87 KiB | Viewed 644 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:40 am 
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Ok, I can only attach 3 file at once!
Here is the pano file for the above stitch:
Oh my god: "The extension .pano is not allowed"! Should I laugh or cry ????

Btw: After copying the two newer files camera.txt and lensid.txt to all "/Data" folders the detection for the D800 works again.


Attachments:
apg308_x64editor.jpg
apg308_x64editor.jpg [ 282.15 KiB | Viewed 640 times ]
[Gruppe 0]-DSC_3658-Edit_DSC_3667-Edit-4 Bilder.zip [158.58 KiB]
Downloaded 20 times

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:27 pm 
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Here is a rendered image at 50%. You have to look very closely to see some small stitching errors.
Perhaps there is still a small parallax error in the setup from diax ?

I find it interesting that the calculated angle (FOV) of this combination is more than 200º ! That's almost as much as the legendary Nikkor 6mm (220º). I'm not a friend of shaving something on a lens, but saving $ 161'000.- is not bad... ;)
http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech ... ou-161-000


Attachments:
[Gruppe 0]-DSC_3658-Edit_DSC_3667-Edit-4 Bilder.jpg
[Gruppe 0]-DSC_3658-Edit_DSC_3667-Edit-4 Bilder.jpg [ 1.55 MiB | Viewed 633 times ]

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:22 pm 
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mediavets wrote:
Destiny wrote:
Yes, it was Martin last year who advised me about the NNP reliant on the focal distance... That is why I open it up all the time.. Its seems to work well with PTGui.. Well, I think I understood it all..

Destiny...


Focal length and focal distance are not the same thing.

And what you talk about opening up is presumably the aperture - a different thing again.


Don't want to sound arrogant, but in my mind people should have to understand the basic meaning of the terms/words they use when communicating. So here is a general call to go through this list during the holidays

http://www.dpreview.com/glossary


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:26 pm 
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HansKeesom wrote:
[Don't want to sound arrogant, but in my mind people should have to understand the basic meaning of the terms/words they use when communicating


Hi Hans
Some photographers are more technicians, others are more artists ;)
One of the best photographers I know has no idea of technical terms. But he has a heart for his motives.

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Martin


Last edited by lumelix on Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:29 pm 
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lumelix wrote:
Ok, here we go:
- First thing I can see is, that on my machine, APG (3.0.8 x64) recognize the camera model wrong. It use a Nikon 800 with crop factor 5.11 ??


APG 3.0.8 64-bit for Windows recognizes the image as being shot on Nikon D800 - see screenshot - I wonder why it didn't for you? Although I note that APG lists the focal length as 10.0mm when it's recorded in the EXIF as 10.5mm, I wonder why that is and whether it matters at all.

Quote:
- But even with this wrong settings, APG make a not so bad stitch. But it's something lazy and don't recognize some control points in the ceiling.

Yes, this seems to be a continuing weakness with APP/APG - it tends to cluster control points around the 'equator' for some reason, failing to detect obvious CPs elsewhere along the overlapping area..
Quote:
- So I have to set some there on this ceiling lamps. And be carefully to take the correct corners ;)
- Then rms is about 3.5
- Clean up the control points and set the distortion model to third order (see screen shot) and I get a rms of 2.78 and a perfect stitch.

Conclusion: APG sometimes is like a diva. You have to play with it.


My contention is that when the product is named Autopano and makes great play of the auto aspect then one should not have to 'play' with it.

Especially when it seems that one does not have to 'play' with PTGui to get a perfect stitch.


Attachments:
1-ptp2b4-imageproperties.jpg
1-ptp2b4-imageproperties.jpg [ 146.48 KiB | Viewed 620 times ]


Last edited by mediavets on Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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