Is it possible to shoot a pano by moving the camera AROUND a subject?  

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Bmachine
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Is it possible to shoot a pano by moving the camera AROUND a subject?

by Bmachine » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:52 am

So, a "standard" pano is shot from a single vantage point. But a client of mine who has a brand new building that just finished wants to shoot a series of shots by MOVING AROUND the front of the building. In other words shoot the first shot right in front of the building aiming at the front door. Then move to the left 5 meters, aim at the same front door and shoot again. And then a further 5 meters etc., basically covering a 180 degree angle around the building.

Then the idea is to assemble these shots to create a flattened "unwrapped" view of the front half of this whole building. I ran a test and APG got (understandably) confused and couldn't make any sense out of it.

Is that even possible? If yes, is there a tutorial on how to do that by any chance?

Thanks a lot

Bo
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by a a gruntpuddock » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:18 am

You might get away with that but only using the multiple viewpoints feature in Autopano Giga http://www.autopano.net/wiki-en/action/view/Reproducing_a_painting_or_artwork
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by Bmachine » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:48 am

Hmm, interesting. Thank you. I am running a test right now. I think the "Multiple Viewpoints" still need to be fairly close or APG cannot stretch the perspective enough.

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by Destiny » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:24 am

Probably... you could try the krpano object VR... However, it will not work on Tablets etc with the current Adroid vertion....
But I guess, not what you are wanting....

Destiny..
Primary School Teacher - Hobby Virtual Tours and 3D/360 Object/Product Photographer - Our aim is to create a 3D/360 Virtual Tour Shop/Store with links to 3D/360 degree products. My gear, VR Drive II - D90 - Nikon 10.5 fisheye - Nikon D800 with Nikon-Nikkor 14-24 - NOVOFLEX Magic Balance - Acratech GP Ball-head - Nodal Ninja 4 + RD-16 Rotor - Manfrotto 190CXPRO4 Carbon Fiber Tripod :) :)

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by klausesser » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:06 am

Bmachine wrote:So, a "standard" pano is shot from a single vantage point. But a client of mine who has a brand new building that just finished wants to shoot a series of shots by MOVING AROUND the front of the building. In other words shoot the first shot right in front of the building aiming at the front door. Then move to the left 5 meters, aim at the same front door and shoot again. And then a further 5 meters etc., basically covering a 180 degree angle around the building.

Then the idea is to assemble these shots to create a flattened "unwrapped" view of the front half of this whole building. I ran a test and APG got (understandably) confused and couldn't make any sense out of it.

Is that even possible? If yes, is there a tutorial on how to do that by any chance?

Thanks a lot

Bo

Some basics:

Theoretically one could think - as Destiny said - to see it as an object-vr. But objet-vr needs to be shot from very precise points from a circle around an object - basicly invented for rotating an object on a table . That´s impossible when you shoot real large objects :cool:
I did it with a vintage car: i put it into a hall and painted 250 (!) marks around it onto the floor with very precise spacing. I arranged the camera to shoot from each mark aiming exactly to the center of the car. The result wasn´t really convincing - i can look for it to show.

Now imagine what that means shooting a complete building . . . :D:cool:

There´s another way - but somewaht complicated: there are applications which build 3D-meshes from objects photographed as many single shots, not needing an exact alignment as in the case i told about before.

This 3D-meshes can be mapped with the texture also extracted from the photographs.

Two apps which can do the process:

1) Microsoft PhotoSynth: http://photosynth.net/ -----> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXjhxhNEZR4 (needs the free SilverLight for Mac from Microsoft)
2) Autodesk 123D-Catch: http://www.123dapp.com/catch -------> http://www.123dapp.com/obj-Catch/Casa-Pojnar-Oradea-Romania/915127

In both cases you need SOME experiences to get good results.

Besides: you´d need a 360° circle around the building - not just 180° ;)

If it doesn´t need to be 360°: you can move parallel to the front for shooting a rectangular panorama - but you can´t move AROUND the building that way.

Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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by marzipano » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:27 am

I think you are describing an orthogonal panorama and if you type "orthogonal" into the Kolor search facility you can see that this has been discussed before and will give some useful references. Not possible in APG if I recall

This paper seems to give a good discussion on the topic

http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/multipano/index.html

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by klausesser » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:29 am

marzipano wrote:I think you are describing an orthogonal panorama and if you type "orthogonal" into the Kolor search facility you can see that this has been discussed before and will give some useful references. Not possible in APG if I recall

This paper seems to give a good discussion on the topic

http://grail.cs.washington.edu/projects/multipano/index.html

Hi Martin!

No - completely different ;):cool:

He wants to be able to walk AROUND a building.

Klaus
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by mediavets » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:59 am

Bmachine wrote:So, a "standard" pano is shot from a single vantage point. But a client of mine who has a brand new building that just finished wants to shoot a series of shots by MOVING AROUND the front of the building. In other words shoot the first shot right in front of the building aiming at the front door. Then move to the left 5 meters, aim at the same front door and shoot again. And then a further 5 meters etc., basically covering a 180 degree angle around the building.

Then the idea is to assemble these shots to create a flattened "unwrapped" view of the front half of this whole building. I ran a test and APG got (understandably) confused and couldn't make any sense out of it.

Is that even possible?

No. it is not possible.

Shoot a video instead?

Do you have a normal photo of this building so we can get a better idea of what it looks like?
Andrew Stephens
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by enbilaman » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:37 am

Bmachine, You are describing the shooting of a partial Object VR Movie, yet you would like to render it on a flattened "unwrapped" view (like if you wanted to print it ?).

Object movies are quite easy to do: the output file is based on the series of images. Unlike a standard Video movie, an ObjectVR movie Viewer (e.g. Adobe's Flash, etc. ) can then show the scene on your screen in an interactive manner: http://gardengnomesoftware.com/object2vr.php

Rendering a flattened "unwrapped" view around a fixed object has been the subject of Scientific (or Artistic) Research but (if I remember correctly) only scanning techniques can do this properly. Only "small" objects can be then photographed: more than often the living human head is the test specimen of these photographic experimentation.
Of course, you could get approximatively the same result by "panoramic" stitching thin vertically cropped photos that are shot like you have suggested: http://michel.thoby.free.fr/Pulling_Pano_Inside_Out/Pulling_Pano_Inside_out.html or http://www.worldwidepanorama.org/worldwidepanorama/wwp313/html/MichelThoby-8000.html but IMO it might be an impossible challenge with large subjects (such as a building) though...

Michel

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by Artisan New » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:58 pm

In short, Klaus is right.....a car can be done, I've seen some less convincing tries since you have to work incredibily precies to get that done (or put the car on a turntable or use the 3D animated car, IBL lighting and a background to match (most car advertisements these days never see a real car anyway).

A building, would be tough, I don't say it's impossible but you'de have to use heavy machinery (get on half the hight of the building and then turn the whole rig camera, photographer and all around the building). With a budget with 6 figures you might have a shot at it, nut be prepared to some legal hassle afterwards if the bill is footed and youn have nothing to show for. Maybe something for Andreas Gursky if he's a bit boared and he has some loose change from a photo sale lying around :).

As the Frech advertised the Renault 17 back in the 70th,

"Amateurs s'abstenire".

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by Destiny » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:41 pm

Posted on this forum somewhere.. ;/ is a Human Face photographed all round and the final image is like an Image Render Map.. I asked the guy how he did it...

Basically, he guessed the centre of the Head, then took heaps and heaps of photos... walking round the Head.. Then the cropped out a thin slice from the centre of each photo and manually stitched them together...

Too much effort if you ask me...

But you might like to try this.. Using a fisheye lens, put your tripod up as high as you can... Capture a photo of the sides, corners and front of the home.. Use Lens correction to remove the fisheye distortion.. Then try to stitch the images... You will probably have to do it by hand and also scale the images a bit to match.. There is a Lattice Tool in Photoshop which might assist.. You could try to do it using APG after lens correction but... Sounds like a lot of effort.... :rolleyes:

Destiny....
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by klausesser » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:46 am

Destiny wrote:Posted on this forum somewhere.. ;/ is a Human Face photographed all round and the final image is like an Image Render Map.. I asked the guy how he did it...

Basically, he guessed the centre of the Head, then took heaps and heaps of photos... walking round the Head.. Then the cropped out a thin slice from the centre of each photo and manually stitched them together...

Too much effort if you ask me...

But you might like to try this.. Using a fisheye lens, put your tripod up as high as you can... Capture a photo of the sides, corners and front of the home.. Use Lens correction to remove the fisheye distortion.. Then try to stitch the images... You will probably have to do it by hand and also scale the images a bit to match.. There is a Lattice Tool in Photoshop which might assist.. You could try to do it using APG after lens correction but... Sounds like a lot of effort.... :rolleyes:

Destiny....

Destiny - ths whole thing can be done very well. But not using the same technique Autopano provides. It´s not THAT much effort as you may think - you just need to know how to do and which apps to use.

This whole thing - dealing with panoramas/tours and widening it´s possibilities - is developing like a steam train: started rather slowly but is in full motion actually.

Klaus
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by mediavets » Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:57 am

klausesser wrote:Destiny - ths whole thing can be done very well. But not using the same technique Autopano provides. It´s not THAT much effort as you may think - you just need to know how to do and which apps to use.

The OP asked whether s/he could do it with APP/APG - the answer is 'no'.
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by klausesser » Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:59 am

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:Destiny - ths whole thing can be done very well. But not using the same technique Autopano provides. It´s not THAT much effort as you may think - you just need to know how to do and which apps to use.

The OP asked whether s/he could do it with APP/APG - the answer is 'no'.

Read what Destiny wrote a bit more carefully . . ;):cool:

You don´t think it´s worth regarding and mentioning additional ways? Ok then: let´s not mention again alternatives - even when they´re useful and might help
to solve a problem.

Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:06 pm

klausesser wrote:You don´t think it´s worth regarding and mentioning additional ways?
Klaus

Do you know of a viable alternative way to do what s/he wanted to do?

A reminder of the 'challenge':

"... a client of mine who has a brand new building that just finished wants to shoot a series of shots by MOVING AROUND the front of the building. In other words shoot the first shot right in front of the building aiming at the front door. Then move to the left 5 meters, aim at the same front door and shoot again. And then a further 5 meters etc., basically covering a 180 degree angle around the building.

Then the idea is to assemble these shots to create a flattened "unwrapped" view of the front half of this whole building. "
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:30 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:You don´t think it´s worth regarding and mentioning additional ways?
Klaus

Do you know of a viable alternative way to do what s/he wanted to do?

A reminder of the 'challenge':

"... a client of mine who has a brand new building that just finished wants to shoot a series of shots by MOVING AROUND the front of the building. In other words shoot the first shot right in front of the building aiming at the front door. Then move to the left 5 meters, aim at the same front door and shoot again. And then a further 5 meters etc., basically covering a 180 degree angle around the building.

Then the idea is to assemble these shots to create a flattened "unwrapped" view of the front half of this whole building. "

Maybe you never were interested in getting informations about doing what the OP asked for - i did.

It´s obvious that PTP cant´t do objekt-vr.
It´s obvious that handling a building as object-vr in no way is comparable to usual object-vr: you can´t put it on a rotating platform . . . :rolleyes::cool:

So you either need to move around the buildingyourself following an exact (!) circle - which you most likely never can achieve - or you need to go different ways.

I mentioned the best way - the easiest and most cost-effective way aside from using CAD/CGI: some applications which can generate 3D-models by using usual photography. More than that: they also can map the 3D-models with the photographs.

So you can capture the building by walking around it and shoot some dozens of photographs - NOT NEEDING to shoot a REGULAR PATTERN!

From the photographs the application extracts 3-D informations - and combinig the extracted 3D-informations from a whole bunch of photographs showing the building from different angles and views it´s possible to have a 3D-model done, which can be mapped with the pixel-informations from each photograph.

It´s not a thing like: "you push the button - we do the rest" - but this is the only way to achieve what the OP wants to do.

As said: the ONLY other way is CGI - or making a movie.

Have a look at the links i posted.

Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:39 pm

But he didn't want a 3D model.

He wrote:

"Then the idea is to assemble these shots to create a flattened "unwrapped" view of the front half of this whole building."

We have no knowledge of the size, style, shape and location of this building, not have we been offered any photos so we could better appreciate the 'challenge'.

Nor do we know the intended use of the desired image.
Last edited by mediavets on Thu Sep 26, 2013 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by klausesser » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:21 pm

mediavets wrote:But he didn't want a 3D model.

He wrote:

"Then the idea is to assemble these shots to create a flattened "unwrapped" view of the front half of this whole building."

We have no knowledge of the size, style, shape and location of this building, not have we been offered any photos so we could better appreciate the 'challenge'.

Nor do we know the intended use of the desired image.

He wanted to have the building captured in a way to make a flat image of the "front half of the whole building". Whatever that means in detail.
For achieving this he´d usually need to capture the front in regular steps for making them stitchable.

Give him YOUR advise how he might be able to achieve it, if you have experiences with this kind of making stitched panos.

Klaus
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by klausesser » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:47 pm

Bmachine wrote:So, a "standard" pano is shot from a single vantage point. But a client of mine who has a brand new building that just finished wants to shoot a series of shots by MOVING AROUND the front of the building. In other words shoot the first shot right in front of the building aiming at the front door. Then move to the left 5 meters, aim at the same front door and shoot again. And then a further 5 meters etc., basically covering a 180 degree angle around the building.

Then the idea is to assemble these shots to create a flattened "unwrapped" view of the front half of this whole building. I ran a test and APG got (understandably) confused and couldn't make any sense out of it.

Is that even possible? If yes, is there a tutorial on how to do that by any chance?

Thanks a lot

Bo

Hi Bo!

Sory - i misread your post first hand.

For shooting the front (and ONLY the front - without any side-view) You need to move absolutely parallel to the front and have the camera aimed 90° centered to the front. Chosse the biggest shooting distance you can use and move in very small steps. Do NOT use a wideangle lens on close distance - ideally use a lens no shorter than 85mm.
The problem with all that: you can´t tilt the camera for capturing the building´s height - if there is any height.

For capturing the building´s height you´d need to use a shift-lens or a shiftable camera.

Basically you NEED to keep the optical axis parallel to the ground for avoiding vertical distortions - in your case the stitcher wouldn´t be able to compensate it.

So - if the building has some height: use the widest shooting-distance, move absolutely parallel to the front, make small steps (1m) and use a shift-lens for not needing to tilt the camera.

Good luck, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:49 pm

klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:But he didn't want a 3D model.

He wrote:

"Then the idea is to assemble these shots to create a flattened "unwrapped" view of the front half of this whole building."

We have no knowledge of the size, style, shape and location of this building, not have we been offered any photos so we could better appreciate the 'challenge'.

Nor do we know the intended use of the desired image.

He wanted to have the building captured in a way to make a flat image of the "front half of the whole building". Whatever that means in detail.
For achieving this he´d usually need to capture the front in regular steps for making them stitchable.

Give him YOUR advise how he might be able to achieve it, if you have experiences with this kind of making stitched panos.

Klaus

My advise would be 'forget it'.

Microsoft ICE is supposed to be able to handel the orthographic projection type required, but it sounds as if he wishes to image not just the front face of the building - assuming it has a'box' shape - but some of the the sides as well.

My very limited experiments with this sort of thing did not produce acceptable results.

If we had more idea what the building looked like then we'd be better able to advise whether it might be possibel to do something somehow.
Andrew Stephens
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by klausesser » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:18 pm

mediavets wrote:
klausesser wrote:
mediavets wrote:But he didn't want a 3D model.

He wrote:

"Then the idea is to assemble these shots to create a flattened "unwrapped" view of the front half of this whole building."

We have no knowledge of the size, style, shape and location of this building, not have we been offered any photos so we could better appreciate the 'challenge'.

Nor do we know the intended use of the desired image.

He wanted to have the building captured in a way to make a flat image of the "front half of the whole building". Whatever that means in detail.
For achieving this he´d usually need to capture the front in regular steps for making them stitchable.

Give him YOUR advise how he might be able to achieve it, if you have experiences with this kind of making stitched panos.

Klaus

My advise would be 'forget it'.

Microsoft ICE is supposed to be able to handel the orthographic projection type required, but it sounds as if he wishes to image not just the front face of the building - assuming it has a'box' shape - but some of the the sides as well.

My very limited experiments with this sort of thing did not produce acceptable results.

If we had more idea what the building looked like then we'd be better able to advise whether it might be possibel to do something somehow.

http://www.tomas-riehle.de/index_de.php# Go to "Bilder" --->> "1990-2008 Abwicklungen "

Klaus
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by marzipano » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:43 pm

I got some software with my Canon and one option of the stitching software ( which I've never used) seems to have something quite close to what you want

The product is called Photostitch (free with Canon camera purchases) and inside the "merge" options is one called "parallel camera movement" which appears to act like a normal stitching program but without any warping

I tried it out on a row of garages near me and I think if you are VERY meticulous you might get a result (which I clearly wasn't !)

You need to be exactly the same distance away for every shot and be exactly perpendicular to the target. The FOV must be very low and there cannot be any perspective or parallax present (i.e it must be a "flat" result)

I used 7 shots in this example but looking at the result I would think you need double that number with a lower FOV

I think it might work with some trial and error for your flattened out view of a semi-circular building facade

below is the orthogonal result (without much tidying up) and nthe normal shot of the garages (on the left)

best
Martin




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by Bmachine » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:40 pm

Thank you very much, Klaus, Mediavets, Artisan, marzipan, Destiny, Ambilaman and grunt. I really appreciate all your thoughts and suggestions.

My apologies for not replying sooner, but when the tests I ran for this did not work out, I spent some time with the client exploring more tried and true options. Then another project got in the way and I only now can get back to this thread.

I think the "parallel" shooting idea is a good one and could be done in APG as mentioned by many of you. But my client wanted to basically walk around in a 180 degree arc with the center on the front door of the building (which is basically a 2 story box shape) so we could "unwrap" the front and sides of his building. Basically the same as what a flattened map of the earth does. I should have explained that better.

I think that because you get obvious perspective distortion as your point of view changes (the face of the building goes from a square to a trapeze very quickly), it would be near impossible for the software to keep everything "flat". So, as many have said, the answer is probably "not possible in APG".

But you all brought up many interesting possibilities which are very good food for thought!

Thank you very much.

Bo
iMac 27. OS 10.8.5. Aperture, APG, PS and Lightzone.
Nikon D600. Mostly handheld.


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