Overlapping question  

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pavelek
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Overlapping question

by pavelek » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:50 am

Hi,
I'm currently working on my first indoor Gigapixel picture, it was taken with autofocus enabled. Good for me that only one of 416 images ran completely out of focus. My actual overlap is about 52%, so this picture could almost restored from the surrounding 5 images. Autopano Pro did fantastic job and used large portions of the infocus pictures and left only a tiny part out of focus.

Is it possible, to shoot with more than 60% overlap? This could result in areas, where Autopanos has 4 images to overlap. If one of those is totally out of focus, would Autopano stick to the two sharp images and deliver a good result?

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by con » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:53 am

why not just use to oft recommended 25%? by all means experiment with other overlaps but if you're starting may as well read about best practice

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by a a gruntpuddock » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:14 am

I tend to be lazy and shoot in autofocus but I believe that the best way is to use manual focus if possible with a small aperture to give good depth of field.

I realise that this is not always possible indoors but if you focus on the nearest parts of the scene and check that the most distant parts are still in the hyperfocal area you might be able to get away with it.

Failing that, if you have enough memory capacity and battery power I don't see why you cant use an overlap of more than 150%.

If this is too many for the program (or computer) to process you can delete every second shot from the pano and still have an acceptable overlap.

Alternatively, you can test the focus in the various areas to see where where it might be difficult and take several spare freehand shots with manual focus in those places to make sure you have complete coverage.

Autopano is quite good at using pictures which don't line up perfectly so it should be easy to remove duff shots and use the some of the spares to cover the area.
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by gkaefer » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:00 pm

pavelek wrote:Hi,
I'm currently working on my first indoor Gigapixel picture, it was taken with autofocus enabled. Good for me that only one of 416 images ran completely out of focus. My actual overlap is about 52%, so this picture could almost restored from the surrounding 5 images. Autopano Pro did fantastic job and used large portions of the infocus pictures and left only a tiny part out of focus.

Is it possible, to shoot with more than 60% overlap? This could result in areas, where Autopanos has 4 images to overlap. If one of those is totally out of focus, would Autopano stick to the two sharp images and deliver a good result?

ad Q1:
yes. you can use 100% overlap too. two identical images can be stitched to one. ;-). seroius: in general larger overlap = more problems and too less overlap =more problems too. 15-30% overlap depending on scene and location.indoor is my advise: with large equal areas like walls, floors etc. without xml based grid you'll have problems to stitch.

ad Q2:
No. If one image is out of focus = the stitch is lost. if the areas are completeley covered by other sharp areas, than delete the out of focus image and go ahead. if emty areas remain, go ahead and postprocess the hole later by exporting cubefaces...

Georg

autofocus & gigapixel = MUST fail.
a car in 10m distance and behind you see a building in 15m. so if autofocus is on the car the house is unsharp. So far no problem. but if next image left to the car does show no car than the autofocus will go to the house. here the house gets sharp. so you've two neigbor images at the house one sharp, one unsharp = pano lost.

so gigapixels with larger focals you will have to use focus stacking - so you take more than one image per imageposition and third partsy software so the different focals get stacked to one sharp image.
you can use promote control device (with canon cams) so the focus stacking is done automatically by the device driving your cams...
http://www.promotesystems.com/products/Promote-Control.html

Georg
Last edited by gkaefer on Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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by klausesser » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:10 pm

pavelek wrote:Hi,
I'm currently working on my first indoor Gigapixel picture, it was taken with autofocus enabled. Good for me that only one of 416 images ran completely out of focus. My actual overlap is about 52%, so this picture could almost restored from the surrounding 5 images. Autopano Pro did fantastic job and used large portions of the infocus pictures and left only a tiny part out of focus.

Is it possible, to shoot with more than 60% overlap? This could result in areas, where Autopanos has 4 images to overlap. If one of those is totally out of focus, would Autopano stick to the two sharp images and deliver a good result?

Hi!

Manual focusing definitely is preferable - use f11/16 and set the focus carefully. Another way is to use focus-stacking. Depending on the camera you use you can use the internal functions or MagicLantern or PromoteControl.
That way the camera autonatically makes two or more focus-steps on each position (if you use an AF lens). The images must be merged in a focus-stacker like Helicon Focus or others.

This method is the best to gain perfect sharpness and DOF.

More than 30% overlap can cause issues - depending on the kind of blending you use.

On the other hand: i prefer to keep a certain sharp-/unsharp weighting. An all-sharp image often isn´t ideal.

After all i suggest to carefully focusing and calculating the optimal DOF. http://www.dofmaster.com/doftable.html

Klaus

PS: which camera/lens do you use and how big is the room resp. What are the average distances?

PS2: You can shoot several spheres using different focus for each. Then put the equirectangular images on layers in photoshop
and work on the layers selecting the parts you want to keep.
You also can render all images seperately as layers for editing them in Photoshop.
(tihs needs some skills in APG as well as in Photoshop).

PS3: shooting gigapixels indoors means to get very deep zooms on objects which are rather close.

Important here is the optimal focal-length/sensor combination.
Last edited by klausesser on Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by mediavets » Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:38 pm

gkaefer wrote:autofocus & gigapixel = MUST fail.
a car in 10m distance and behind you see a building in 15m. so if autofocus is on the car the house is unsharp. So far no problem. but if next image left to the car does show no car than the autofocus will go to the house. here the house gets sharp. so you've two neigbor images at the house one sharp, one unsharp = pano lost.

The OP was shooting an interior gigapixel pano. Even so manual focus is the normal recommendation.
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by gkaefer » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:22 pm

mediavets wrote:
gkaefer wrote:autofocus & gigapixel = MUST fail.
a car in 10m distance and behind you see a building in 15m. so if autofocus is on the car the house is unsharp. So far no problem. but if next image left to the car does show no car than the autofocus will go to the house. here the house gets sharp. so you've two neigbor images at the house one sharp, one unsharp = pano lost.

The OP was shooting an interior gigapixel pano. Even so manual focus is the normal recommendation.

I assume the location for an indoor gigapixel will be an exihibition hall, a theatre, a Lobby, a church or similar. so using a 70-135mm indoor for 30 meters the wall and 10m any object its the same situation...
Georg

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by klausesser » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:24 pm

mediavets wrote:
gkaefer wrote:autofocus & gigapixel = MUST fail.
a car in 10m distance and behind you see a building in 15m. so if autofocus is on the car the house is unsharp. So far no problem. but if next image left to the car does show no car than the autofocus will go to the house. here the house gets sharp. so you've two neigbor images at the house one sharp, one unsharp = pano lost.

The OP was shooting an interior gigapixel pano. Even so manual focus is the normal recommendation.

Georg just mentioned an example - the relations outdoors and indoors related to the lens *basically* are comparable.

The problem with AF is which field it uses for measuring. Here it´s sheer luck what you get. A small table in the foreground will ruin the sharpness of the background . . but the background might be the important part of the image and so on. So you´d need to adjust the fields related to the FOV. Then you can focus manually anyways . . . :cool:

To be honest: manual focusing and the use of the brain ;) regarding hyperfocal definitely will give better controllable results, needs fewer shots and most likely stitches better when you look at 100%.

In complicately structured surroundings the very best solution is to use focus-stacking - on the other side you need to double or triple the shots. Preferably at least three focusses on each position . . which means 1200 exposures instead of 400 using focal-ramping.

Definitely nothing for beginners but for the already truely skilled ones . . ;):cool:

Gigapixels - indoors or oudoors - only make sense when they´re almost perfect @100%. Otherwise there´s no reason to shoot a giagapixel.

Klaus
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by klausesser » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:29 pm

gkaefer wrote:
mediavets wrote:
gkaefer wrote:autofocus & gigapixel = MUST fail.
a car in 10m distance and behind you see a building in 15m. so if autofocus is on the car the house is unsharp. So far no problem. but if next image left to the car does show no car than the autofocus will go to the house. here the house gets sharp. so you've two neigbor images at the house one sharp, one unsharp = pano lost.

The OP was shooting an interior gigapixel pano. Even so manual focus is the normal recommendation.

I assume the location for an indoor gigapixel will be an exihibition hall, a theatre, a Lobby, a church or similar. so using a 70-135mm indoor for 30 meters the wall and 10m any object its the same situation...
Georg

Shooting in a big hall isn´t a problem when you choose a perspective with almost equal distances to the walls/ceiling.

http://360impressions.de/WuppZentral/Stadthalle.swf around 4GPx.

But even here most likely you´re lost without a head recording XML - though there are lots of details to find cps . . maybe too much details.
I wouldn´t do it without a head writing XML.

best, Klaus
Last edited by klausesser on Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by Artisan New » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:05 pm

Nope Klaus large is never a problem, but to get the floor sharp the near limit of the DOF at hyperfocal distance should be smaller then the hight of your tripod. But then again who cares about the floor except the cleaning lady :).

Greets, Ed.
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by klausesser » Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:30 pm

Artisan New wrote:Nope Klaus large is never a problem, but to get the floor sharp the near limit of the DOF at hyperfocal distance should be smaller then the hight of your tripod. But then again who cares about the floor except the cleaning lady :).

Greets, Ed.

Would you mind showing us the indoor-gigapixels you made so far? Please?

Klaus
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by Artisan New » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:39 am

klausesser wrote:
Artisan New wrote:Nope Klaus large is never a problem, but to get the floor sharp the near limit of the DOF at hyperfocal distance should be smaller then the hight of your tripod. But then again who cares about the floor except the cleaning lady :).

Greets, Ed.

Would you mind showing us the indoor-gigapixels you made so far? Please?

Klaus

Yes I would mind, but in what ways does that change the laws of optics? But I could send you a CD though if you're interrested and respect copyrights (which I trust you to do) of one of my experiments from september last year. A 246 shot VR sphere of which these are a 100% of infinity and a 100% of the nadir. Shot by adjusting focus in the lower half of the pano.....circle by circle and then some stitching and photoshopping. I've included a view of the directory so you can see Klaus around 6000 files in the tiles directory so enough room to browse.

Greets, Ed.








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